A new golden generation for England?

Don't understand at all why everyone is worried about the supposed dearth in our young defensive quality.

We're only just beginning to see the impact of the Premier League's EPPP and FA grassroots revamp in 2012, and it's pretty established that defensive players blossom later in their careers when compared with attacking players. This is of course because they need to be far more developed in their mental characteristics for their managers to trust them owing to the far increased jeopardy attached to their mistakes. Obviously there exists exceptional early-peakers, but let us take the best three centre backs in the Premier League:
Laporte was at Athletic Bilbao until 24
van Dijk was at Southampton until 26
Maguire was at Leicester until 26

Even without counting Gomez/Rice, the likes of Tomori/Wilmot/Holgate/Panzo/Godfrey/Tuanzebe/Konsa/White/Fry/Tanganga/Ferguson/Guehi/Harwood-Bellis are also all comfortably on course with those trajectories.
 
I think only France have a better group of young players.

With the semis and final at home I think England will have a great chance at the Euros next year, especially since the young players will get an extra year to grow.
 
Class of 63 said:
How many of the listed players in the op have proved anything?

I can't recall ever seeing a young English midfielder looking equally as comfortable on either side of the ball as Garner does, the World is his Lobster.
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Almost all of them have had some impact even if brief. You can't say the same for Doyle or Garner or Laird. Otherwise everyone would be bringing up Elliot, Barry, Musiala, Curtis Jones, etc... I thought OP clearly listed players who were already proven at first team level even if at a small capacity.
 
By this time next year there will be a whole group of new names who will appear as serious contenders to add to what England already have. A few kids will emerge which could be anyone from Henry Lawrence/Armando Broja/Tino Anjorin/Conor Gallagher/Harvey Elliot/Curtis Jones/Teden Mengi/Garner etc

Then from The Championship one or two gems will emerge as International level players - possibly the likes of Eberechi Eze and Kalvin Philipps etc

England might be the team to beat at next summers Euro Championships

Then when talking about the World Cup in 2022, you have the likes of Louie Barry and Carney Chukwuemeka at Villa who are very highly rated
 
In Rainbows said:
Almost all of them have had some impact even if brief. You can't say the same for Doyle or Garner or Laird. Otherwise everyone would be bringing up Elliot, Barry, Musiala, Curtis Jones, etc... I thought OP clearly listed players who were already proven at first team level even if at a small capacity.
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In my defence i'd slept since reading the op and maybe should have checked it again before posting, my bad
 
Of ones that have already semi broken through into first team football

Henderson
Trent Tomori Holgate Lewis/Saka
Sancho Kalvin-Philips Foden Rashford
Greenwood Calvert-Lewin

All U-23 I think and hopefully a few CBs and DMs come through at some point soon too.
 
Class of 63 said:
In my defence i'd slept since reading the op and maybe should have checked it again before posting, my bad
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I'm right there with you on Garner though. Right now he's a bit of a secret weapon that United fans know about. Then again, I'm also a huge Gomes fan and we saw how that turned out.
 
flappyjay said:
You have forgotten Maddison there. My issue with this generation is midfield. At the moment for the next world cup it looks like Rice or bust in terms of cm's and dms. A lot of attacking midfielders not many dms and cm's. Maybe one will come thru in the next 2 years, some players develop slow. Jude is probably one for 2024 Euro and 2026 world cup.
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shame for England that Gilmour, McTominay and maybe Ampadu aren’t eligible
 
Champagne Football said:
By this time next year there will be a whole group of new names who will appear as serious contenders to add to what England already have. A few kids will emerge which could be anyone from Henry Lawrence/Armando Broja/Tino Anjorin/Conor Gallagher/Harvey Elliot/Curtis Jones/Teden Mengi/Garner etc

Then from The Championship one or two gems will emerge as International level players - possibly the likes of Eberechi Eze and Kalvin Philipps etc

England might be the team to beat at next summers Euro Championships

Then when talking about the World Cup in 2022, you have the likes of Louie Barry and Carney Chukwuemeka at Villa who are very highly rated
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Phillips will anchor England's midfield for years to come. He will be the obvious choice for that holding role once he's played in the Premier League.
 
John Stones needs a move away from City to somewhere like Arsenal or Everton. He could jump back into contention as an important CD for England if he had a successful move of clubs.
 
The same fans that cry about the 4-4-2 in the "golden era" and how criminal it was to play players out of position are the same ones make suggestions such as Trent in CM, AWB at CB, Shaw at CB etc.
 
We've got the bones of a good side coming through. I mean Rash - Kane - Sterling on its own is a pretty scary front three, before you consider the youth. Added to that, Southgate has definitely exceeded expectations on the coaching side.

But there are questions -
1. GK
2. Midfield set up
3. Midfield personnel
(edit) 4. I guess the defensive set up is still a question, as we have played well with 4 and 5

Can the youth coming through solve those issues? Really hope so, but at the same time, I really enjoyed the lack of expectation going into the last world cup and I think that helped us. Lets not get carried away.
 
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In Rainbows said:
I'm right there with you on Garner though. Right now he's a bit of a secret weapon that United fans know about. Then again, I'm also a huge Gomes fan and we saw how that turned out.
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Probably strange to suggest now he's added goals(and top quality goals too) to his already good offensive play but I can still the lad going back to play as a central-defender, a position he by all accounts excelled at prior to his step up to the 18s, or he might play both positions which we open up more opportunities at club(hopefully United) and International level.

Gomes is a funny one but if he gets his next club right he'll be back, he's far too talented not to.
 
Ali Dia said:
saka looks a very interesting prospect and as you said attacking fullbacks are the in thing full backs are now wingers who defend a bit and wingers are strikers (forwards). I reckon AWB will see a bit more international game time than Shaw going forward. AWB basically lets you close down an entire side of the pitch which will be handy when England are up against the better teams later on in tournaments he’s also pretty close on athletic ability to Trent he just needs to put it all together for another season or 2. He’ll have plenty of the ball at United anyway! I agree he’s currently probably not going to be needed in about 90% of their matches though. What a great problem for a manager to have. It’s not like we are overrating just because they are English players either. They are statistically the best players in their position in a league jammed full of talent from all over the world.
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Above all else is Southgate even that big a fan of AWB? For all the talk of him having the position as back up to Trent sown up for the next decade he's had one call up in two and a half years, in a period where he's pretty much started every game for Palace and United and his only serious competition has been a wildly inconsistent Trippier (Walker was a CB in the world cup and not long after that stopped getting selected).

Southgate's demonstrated he isn't afraid to call people up early (case in point Hudson Odoi getting a start for England earlier than he did in the PL) so that explanation is out of the window.
 
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Peyroteo said:
I think only France have a better group of young players.

With the semis and final at home I think England will have a great chance at the Euros next year, especially since the young players will get an extra year to grow.
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Depends if there are crowds. If we’re still having behind closed door football home advantage will be negated.
 
The attack and the full backs are really awesome, with CBs being quite good. Midfield can be better though.
 
The Euro U21 last year always reminds me not to get overexcited about these youngsters.
 
Class of 63 said:
And James Garner to Captain the side from midfield, with Dean Henderson in Goal.
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I came in to post about Garner. Beat me to it.

balaks said:
Top 4 great - behind that ehhh…… oh dear.
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James Garner is a serious talent. Loads of work for him still to do, but I fully expect him to be anchoring United’s and England’s midfield for years to come. No pressure or anything.
 
hmchan said:
The Euro U21 last year always reminds me not to get overexcited about these youngsters.
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That was pretty much a scratch squad though in terms of the brightest prospects. Out of that squad can only envisage Mount and Foden ever being regular starters.
 
Dancfc said:
That was pretty much a scratch squad though in terms of the brightest prospects. Out of that squad can only envisage Mount and Foden ever being regular starters.
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Henderson, Wan-Bissaka, Tomori, Maddison, Barnes, Calvert-Lewin, Abraham. All of these are kept being mentioned as the future of England and they're all in the squad.
 
Dancfc said:
That was pretty much a scratch squad though in terms of the brightest prospects. Out of that squad can only envisage Mount and Foden ever being regular starters.
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And Foden was young for that team. Many of his teammates from the true golden generation (2000+) weren't in that team. It's an arbitrary line/year for a cut off point, but I like to think of it as the true start of the generation. Nobody was looking at those pre 2000 English national youth sides as golden generations and if anything, their world cup/euro wins let them able to latch onto the 2000 born generation that was ear marked as a golden generation for years. The 2000 born generation wasn't seen as a golden generation based on some tournaments. Them winning the u17 world cup was merely an inevitability. The u19 and u20 sides that won their respective tournaments only got lumped in due to those tournament wins which if anyone follows youth football knows that calling a youth side a golden generation off of a tournament win is foolish (Mexico, Nigeria, Switzerland).

I mean, look at the stark difference in results between the 1999 group and the 2000 group.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/england-u17/spielplan/verein/23260/plus/0?saison_id=2015

1999 u17 group in 2016:

-1:1 vs Portugal
-2:2 vs Germany
-0:2 L vs Netherlands
-1:0 L vs Spain
-2:0 W vs France
-3:1 W vs Denmark
-1:2 L vs Sweden
-3:1 W vs Turkey
-1:0 W vs Finland
-1:1 vs Ukraine

2000 u17 group in 2016

-2:0 W vs Azerbaijan
-3:0 W vs Romania
-3:2 W vs Austria
-3:1 W vs Belgium
-6:0 W vs Belgium
-5:0 W vs Croatia
-3:0 W vs Greece
-8:1 W vs Germany

And the 1999 group was borrowing Ryan Sessegnon who was actually from the 2000 group. Sorry for the over explained post, but the point is that the true golden generation largely hovers around the 2000 generation with talents from other groups adding to that group. That is the group with the most depth in talent, with probably the best technicians in that group.
 
hmchan said:
Henderson, Wan-Bissaka, Tomori, Maddison, Barnes, Calvert-Lewin, Abraham. All of these are kept being mentioned as the future of England and they're all in the squad.
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Abraham will never start ahead of Kane/Rashford/Greenwood while DCL will at most be a horses for courses option, Southgate doesn't appear to like AWB or Maddison while Tomori will likely be behind Maguire and Gomez although there is scope for him to change that if he cuts out the errors.

Can truly only see Mount and Foden as regular starters out of that outfield list (forgot about Henderson) as i said but i could be wrong.
 
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In Rainbows said:
And Foden was young for that team. Many of his teammates from the true golden generation (2000+) weren't in that team. It's an arbitrary line/year for a cut off point, but I like to think of it as the true start of the generation. Nobody was looking at those pre 2000 English national youth sides as golden generations and if anything, their world cup/euro wins let them able to latch onto the 2000 born generation that was ear marked as a golden generation for years. The 2000 born generation wasn't seen as a golden generation based on some tournaments. Them winning the u17 world cup was merely an inevitability. The u19 and u20 sides that won their respective tournaments only got lumped in due to those tournament wins which if anyone follows youth football knows that calling a youth side a golden generation off of a tournament win is foolish (Mexico, Nigeria, Switzerland).

I mean, look at the stark difference in results between the 1999 group and the 2000 group.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/england-u17/spielplan/verein/23260/plus/0?saison_id=2015

1999 u17 group in 2016:

-1:1 vs Portugal
-2:2 vs Germany
-0:2 L vs Netherlands
-1:0 L vs Spain
-2:0 W vs France
-3:1 W vs Denmark
-1:2 L vs Sweden
-3:1 W vs Turkey
-1:0 W vs Finland
-1:1 vs Ukraine

2000 u17 group in 2016

-2:0 W vs Azerbaijan
-3:0 W vs Romania
-3:2 W vs Austria
-3:1 W vs Belgium
-6:0 W vs Belgium
-5:0 W vs Croatia
-3:0 W vs Greece
-8:1 W vs Germany

And the 1999 group was borrowing Ryan Sessegnon who was actually from the 2000 group. Sorry for the over explained post, but the point is that the true golden generation largely hovers around the 2000 generation with talents from other groups adding to that group. That is the group with the most depth in talent, with probably the best technicians in that group.
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There's some good talents born in 99 but i do agree the 00's is where it really get's tasty, could seriously benefit the other home nations aswell as we could see some talents look elsewhere as there's not enough room. I can't speak for anyone else but Chelsea alone has another incredible bunch of talents coming through in the next year/two down (Anjorin and Bate prime examples).
 
Dancfc said:
There's some good talents born in 99 but i do agree the 00's is where it really get's tasty, could seriously benefit the other home nations aswell as we could see some talents look elsewhere as there's not enough room. I can't speak for anyone else but Chelsea alone has another incredible bunch of talents coming through in the next year/two down (Anjorin and Bate prime examples).
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I think the 2001 group really compliments the 2000 group (Ex. Greenwood). And the other groups add to that core.

What do you make of CHO? Is it just a coincidence or is that his level isn't the same pre-Achilles injury? I thought he put himself in that bracket with Foden and Sancho. He was the gem of Chelsea's dominant run of youth sides of the last 5 years or so.
 
hmchan said:
The Euro U21 last year always reminds me not to get overexcited about these youngsters.
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Why wouldn’t their success in other youth tournaments tell you otherwise?

They bodged the u21 Euros no question but it’s not always a good indicator of future success. The u21Euros only consists of 12 sides (was only 8 until recently) so you have to be one of the best in Europe to get there, top nations often miss out.

Success in it doesn’t alway correlate to success at senior level anyway. Holland won it twice in a row in 06 & 07 and didn’t yield a single top class player from those sides. France didn’t even qualify in 2011, 2013, 2015 & 2017 yet those groups have produced on of the best international sides about today. Spain’s dominance of the tournament in the same period hasn’t produced an international trophy winning side.

In modern times, u21 sides like Germany’s in 2009 that won it and then many players from the side went on to win the World Cup are very much the exception rather than the rule.

England fans should keep an eye on Marcus Edwards in Portugal, one of the most gifted players we’ve produced in recent times and has quietly done well over there this season. It would be nice to see him get a u21 call, deserves it more than Nelson, for example.

One of the top rated players there this season

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/1.../PlayerStatistics/Portugal-Liga-NOS-2019-2020

 
In Rainbows said:
I think the 2001 group really compliments the 2000 group (Ex. Greenwood). And the other groups add to that core.

What do you make of CHO? Is it just a coincidence or is that his level isn't the same pre-Achilles injury? I thought he put himself in that bracket with Foden and Sancho. He was the gem of Chelsea's dominant run of youth sides of the last 5 years or so.
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Putting my neck on the line a bit (Redknapp style) but I honestly believe injuries are the only thing that will prevent him going right to the very top. He was rated higher than Sancho at youth level and there was a reason for that. He had a bit of a rut in the winter but was fantastic during January until he got injured again.

His combination of speed/creativity/trickery is very rare. I saw a metric the other day that no one (out of his fellow U24 wingers and AM's) makes passes into the box as consistently as him (and he also averages a high number of touches in the box aswell which makes him even more threatening), if I find it again I'll post it on here and tag you.
 
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Dancfc said:
Putting my neck on the line a bit (Redknapp style) but I honestly believe injuries are the only thing that will prevent him going right to the very top. He was rated higher than Sancho at youth level and there was a reason for that. He had a bit of a rut in the winter but was fantastic during January until he got injured again.

His combination of speed/creativity/trickery is very rare. I saw a metric the other day that no one (out of his fellow U24 wingers and AM's makes passes into the box as consistently as him (and he also averages a high number of touches in the box aswell which makes him even more threatening), if I find it again I'll post it on here and tag you.
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I’m a massive fan of CHO but he wasn’t higher rated than Sancho at youth level. Sancho was unbelievable at youth level, he would completely embarrass other national sides all by himself and won best player at the U17s Euros.
 
Any side that's generally reached a final in last decade has a tempo player in midfield.

Germany- Kroos

Spain- Xavi

Portugal- Moutinho

Croatia- Modric

Italy- Pirlo

France- Pogba

O.k they're not all exactly the same but they can all be played infront of a DM and set up attacks and control tempo of game from deep.

England are on right lines now but as we saw in last world cup they still lack that player that can get you through a SF given the amounts of possession Croatia had in that second half.

Wilshere should've been that player for last decade but injury killed that. I'd also liked to have seen Shelvey trusted a bit more at times but guess his inconsistant club career has put managers off.

Hopefully England won't fall into the trap of just playing Foden as an AM because he's scoring a few goals for Man. City atm. You've got many options for number 10 position (Grealish, Madisson, Mount, Ali etc) so Foden needs to be played a little deeper. It's no different to likes of Modric in his early years at Spurs playing more further forward or indeed Pirlo at Inter Milan before they started moving back in their mid 20s.

Not just about the quality of CBs either, complete contrast to 2000s when England were ridiculously stacked in that position.

England certainly should be getting to SFs on a regular basis now and the odd final. Think Portugal have made 5 SFs from 2000 as a comparison.
 
FootballHQ said:
Any side that's generally reached a final in last decade has a tempo player in midfield.

Germany- Kroos

Spain- Xavi

Portugal- Moutinho

Croatia- Modric

Italy- Pirlo

France- Pogba

O.k they're not all exactly the same but they can all be played infront of a DM and set up attacks and control tempo of game from deep.

England are on right lines now but as we saw in last world cup they still lack that player that can get you through a SF given the amounts of possession Croatia had in that second half.

Wilshere should've been that player for last decade but injury killed that. I'd also liked to have seen Shelvey trusted a bit more at times but guess his inconsistant club career has put managers off.

Hopefully England won't fall into the trap of just playing Foden as an AM because he's scoring a few goals for Man. City atm. You've got many options for number 10 position (Grealish, Madisson, Mount, Ali etc) so Foden needs to be played a little deeper. It's no different to likes of Modric in his early years at Spurs playing more further forward or indeed Pirlo at Inter Milan before they started moving back in their mid 20s.

Not just about the quality of CBs either, complete contrast to 2000s when England were ridiculously stacked in that position.

England certainly should be getting to SFs on a regular basis now and the odd final. Think Portugal have made 5 SFs from 2000 as a comparison.
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More likely Maddison is used as the tempo midfielder with Foden as the 10 IMO, but I agree. The one thing England always lack, or ignore when they have it (Carrick, Scholes). There's loads of quality and potential all throughout the England side, but they just lack that midfield base IMO. As a 23 and under long term 11 you can see something like (picking kind of highest potential players IMO):

Rashford Greenwood Sancho
Maddison - Foden
???
Chilwell Gomez ??? Alexander-Arnold
Henderson​

Maybe Rice to be that defensive mid, I'm just not sure if he's too limited. Need more Matic rather than Dier type. Also depends on how they develop but Maddison-Foden might not be particularly suited, but you can replace one with Bellingham (there are options). Not to mention all those above 23, like Sterling, Maguire, Henderson and all the rest.
 
bosnian_red said:
More likely Maddison is used as the tempo midfielder with Foden as the 10 IMO, but I agree. The one thing England always lack, or ignore when they have it (Carrick, Scholes). There's loads of quality and potential all throughout the England side, but they just lack that midfield base IMO. As a 23 and under long term 11 you can see something like (picking kind of highest potential players IMO):

Rashford Greenwood Sancho
Maddison - Foden
???
Chilwell Gomez ??? Alexander-Arnold
Henderson​

Maybe Rice to be that defensive mid, I'm just not sure if he's too limited. Need more Matic rather than Dier type. Also depends on how they develop but Maddison-Foden might not be particularly suited, but you can replace one with Bellingham (there are options). Not to mention all those above 23, like Sterling, Maguire, Henderson and all the rest.
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The combination of Maddison and Foden was very disappointing in the Euro U21 last year, with no creativity whatsoever. While they are great technical players on their own, the more difficult part is to fully utilize their ability and turn them into end products. Just hope they can achieve more in senior level.
 
It's a good squad, but it's hard to envision someone taking England over the finish line in a world cup. There is so much emotional stake and you need an attacker like Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe etc taking you to the finish line. I see Sterling, Kane crumbling under the pressure
 
Seriously could win something with a bit of luck. I’m not sure about Southgate. And imo Harry Kane doesn’t fit into the team already — with the players that England already have and that are coming through. Fast technical football is the way to go and for me Kane will stand out like a sore thumb despite being very good on the ball and having fantastic hold up play.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Seriously could win something with a bit of luck. I’m not sure about Southgate. And imo Harry Kane doesn’t fit into the team already — with the players that England already have and that are coming through. Fast technical football is the way to go and for me Kane will stand out like a sore thumb despite being very good on the ball and having fantastic hold up play.
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Harry Kane has 27 goals in 28 games for England in the past 3 seasons.
 
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