A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea

dannyrhinos89 said:
Navas was great for forest last season from the games I saw on TV anyway.
Click to expand...
He had 2-3 games in the beginning that were pretty good, shot-stopping wise. After that, he was pretty poor, bar a couple exceptions. He was a step down quality wise from Henderson, which both Steve Cooper all but said in his press conferences, and most Forest fans would agree.

He is a decent shot stopper and in 1v1, but he is mediocre to poor in other facets of his game. He is not the best passer, he is not good on crosses.

But he does have confidence, is very athletic and can pull of some crazy acrobatic saves. So as a backup on a one-season loan, it's alright. Not great, but decent.
 
Isotope said:
Is manager signature also needed in the contract?
Click to expand...

Probably not, but why would that matter? It's not like Murtough wouldn't consult Ten Hag's opinion first on the players and just extend whoever he himself deems good enough.
 
themanguydude said:
Probably not, but why would that matter? It's not like Murtough wouldn't consult Ten Hag's opinion first on the players and just extend whoever he himself deems good enough.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. If you've hired a head coach then it's important to consult the person who is managing the playing squad, or else you end up in a pretty bad situation. So you don't sign off on any contract agreement without consulting the man who is in charge of developing the team.

I've been following Edu and Arteta at Arsenal since 2019, and they made a lot of mistakes. But even though they finished 8th, 8th, 5th and 2nd in the league for the last 4 or 5 years and signed duds like Pepe (Edu), they've carried on signing players as a team. And at any other big club they might've been sacked for finishing close to mid table twice and having a very mixed record in the transfer window, but Arsenal persevered with them after several years of mixed recruitment and now they seem to have got things right and work as a team to sign players.
 
Rolaholic said:


:lol: :lol:
Click to expand...


Tbf I don't think this is unlikely, or all that 'sensational'.

Even being asked to take a significant paycut from his record wage, we will probably offer him a higher wage than he's likely to get anywhere else. If for some reason we're unable to sign someone else (the mind boggles, but still), it might well be in his interests to have waited as at that point he'll have us over a barrel somewhat and will definitely end up on a good wage.
 
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.

100s of millions on CBs, midfielders, forwards - at least the keeper position was settled for the last 10 years. Now imagine that also turns into a bit of a circus of players in and out. We'll be fecked
 
Skills said:
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.

100s of millions on CBs, midfielders, forwards - at least the keeper position was settled for the last 10 years. Now imagine that also turns into a bit of a circus of players in and out. We'll be fecked
Click to expand...
Yeah let's give DDG a 5 year contract and enjoy him tied to his line and kicking like a scared rabbit in headlights. We have to move on!!
 
Skills said:
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.

100s of millions on CBs, midfielders, forwards - at least the keeper position was settled for the last 10 years. Now imagine that also turns into a bit of a circus of players in and out. We'll be fecked
Click to expand...
A bit. We held down the position for so long after instability of others there. Game has moved on unfortunately, and better ability playing the ball is worth the risk it seems.

I think he’s been really badly treated. Offered a lower wage deal, which he accepted only for it to be withdrawn and something even lower offered.

And we’re repeatedly told we have a finite amount of money to spend due to budget, takeover delays, FFP etc that signing a GK shouldn’t be the priority. Midfield and striker (or two). Maybe even RB should be above GK. Much more sensible with a finite budget to extend and pay the £20m wages for a season, than spend 50m (with wages on top) for an Onana or Diego Costa.
 
Skills said:
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.

100s of millions on CBs, midfielders, forwards - at least the keeper position was settled for the last 10 years. Now imagine that also turns into a bit of a circus of players in and out. We'll be fecked
Click to expand...

honestly think it will be difficult to replace him. Ok he’s not as good as he was but he’s still a good player and I think people underestimate how hard it is being a goalkeeper at Man Utd. The players we’ve been linked to will do well to be a clear improvement.
 
Skills said:
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.

100s of millions on CBs, midfielders, forwards - at least the keeper position was settled for the last 10 years. Now imagine that also turns into a bit of a circus of players in and out. We'll be fecked
Click to expand...
Nah, we’ll be fine regardless. Even when De Gea was carrying us, it’s not like we were fighting relegation or anything. We might have finished 7th or 8th instead of 6th a few times but it wouldn’t have been catastrophic by any means.

The change to a new GK radically changes the style of football we want to play so if Ten Hag does get the boot we’ll have to fully commit to this brand of playing out from the back come what may now, which will probably be good for us overall because we’ll stop chasing names and have to sign players that can play within the system instead, and hire managers that use this system.
 
mikey_d said:
honestly think it will be difficult to replace him. Ok he’s not as good as he was but he’s still a good player and I think people underestimate how hard it is being a goalkeeper at Man Utd. The players we’ve been linked to will do well to be a clear improvement.
Click to expand...
He's a keeper that can't sweep, can't pass, is the worst in the league at dealing with crosses and high balls, has spent five years consistently making mistakes in our biggest games, and his once amazing shot-stopping ability is now only slightly above average. He is not difficult to replace at all, in fact it will be harder to get someone worse than it is to get an improvement. Not impossible so I'm not going to sit here and say it's 100% guaranteed his replacement will be an improvement, but the sad reality is that we can easily get somebody who is an improvement over De Gea yet they still won't be good enough either.
 
RoyH1 said:
That doesn't seem like great planning to me.
Click to expand...
It is called keeping up appearances. I think letting De Gea's contract run out is better than signing him and then trying to sell him. Less confrontation and more honour in this.
 
Skills said:
Anyone else really nervous about changing keeper considering how we've royally fecked up every single other position with multiple attempts.
Click to expand...
Literally the only way is up. It’s like arguing that we should just retain Weghorst than not gamble on another striker.
 
MadDogg said:
He's a keeper that can't sweep, can't pass, is the worst in the league at dealing with crosses and high balls, has spent five years consistently making mistakes in our biggest games, and his once amazing shot-stopping ability is now only slightly above average. He is not difficult to replace at all, in fact it will be harder to get someone worse than it is to get an improvement. Not impossible so I'm not going to sit here and say it's 100% guaranteed his replacement will be an improvement, but the sad reality is that we can easily get somebody who is an improvement over De Gea yet they still won't be good enough either.
Click to expand...
Well put. It's baffling how many can't see the obvious.
 
MadDogg said:
He's a keeper that can't sweep, can't pass, is the worst in the league at dealing with crosses and high balls, has spent five years consistently making mistakes in our biggest games, and his once amazing shot-stopping ability is now only slightly above average. He is not difficult to replace at all, in fact it will be harder to get someone worse than it is to get an improvement. Not impossible so I'm not going to sit here and say it's 100% guaranteed his replacement will be an improvement, but the sad reality is that we can easily get somebody who is an improvement over De Gea yet they still won't be good enough either.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Yes, he can still make the amazing gravity defying save…but it’s the simple things he makes a mess of (West Ham game in May is a perfect example). And it got to the point where I couldn’t believe they kept passing back to him. At least he started playing those long more often. When Maguire was in, I couldn’t watch them try to play out of the back.

He was a great steward for the club for more than a decade…but it’s time to move on.
 
Now De Gea is out of contract what does he do? Does he still turn up to training when it starts? Can see an embarrassing headline in a few weeks “De Gea barred from entering Carrington”
 
mikey_d said:
honestly think it will be difficult to replace him. Ok he’s not as good as he was but he’s still a good player and I think people underestimate how hard it is being a goalkeeper at Man Utd. The players we’ve been linked to will do well to be a clear improvement.
Click to expand...

We could have upgraded him with Romero a few years ago, it's really not that hard. This isn't like replacing Van Der Sar or Schmeicel, it's a different era. There are loads of top class GK's around today that wouldn't have looked as good playing 10+ years ago. Hell, even the pressure of being a Utd GK isn't as big as it once was.

I have 0 doubts that a Costa, Maignan or Onana would not only replace him but be a massive improvement.

I've watched Virtually all of Brightons football since De Zerbi took over and I think even Jason Steele would be an upgrade and I hadn't even heard of him before half way through this season and he's 32.
 
Hope we get Costa, Onana or Maignan. Those 3 are my favorites to replace DDG due to style, age, and ceiling. Raya is good, but just not good enough for United.
 
Last edited:
6 weeks till the start of the season and this whole keeper situation is a complete joke.

According to the Whitwell article, there are about 10 possibilities that could happen, and there isn't exactly a clear favourite between them.
 
ifightdragons said:
He didn't win keeper of the year award. Alisson did (PFA Team of the Year Awards).

De Gea won the Golden Glove, an award given for clean sheets. And cleen sheets is definitely a team effort.

For your first question, it's hard to accurately quantify which is more important.

It is very telling thoug, that Ederson, who isn't a great shot stopper, is widely considered one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Same goes for Onana, and to a lesser degree, keepers like Ramsdale.

Like you said, it's becoming very clear that the top teams and managers value ball control, sweeping and cross claiming higher than just shot stopping.

Perfect example: When Pep joined City, they had Joe Hart in goal, who was considered a fantastic shot stopper, and was a star player in that team. The first thing Pep did was replacing him. He then brought in Claudio Bravo, who also was a good shot stopper. Pep soon dropped him also, because none of them had the skills required to implement his style of positional and possessional control. As soon as Ederson came in, everything started to fall into place.

So to summarize: It's evident that shot stopping is considered less important than the other factors in the modern game. That's not to say it isn't important -- it absolutely is.
But most top goalkeepers are good enough shot stoppers, including De Gea. It's a basic skill for a goalkeeper.

Yes, De Gea is nowhere near as good a shot stopper as Costa and Allison. But shot stopping is not his big problem. We only conceded 6 more goals this season solely due to his shot stopping. While not good, that is not a catastrophic tally by any means. What definitely is detrimental, is his other areas that seriously holds us back, not only defensively.

De Gea won't sweep. This makes every ball over our defense potentially dangerous, and can lead to more chances and goals conceded than necessary.

De Gea won't maintain a high line, which means our defense has to stay low, instead of joining the midfield more often. This in turn makes it harder for us to feed the ball into our attackers. So by having a keeper glued to his line, we will not only concede more chances, we will also create less. This is one of the reasons why our strikers often seem to have the proverbial "graveyard shift".

De Gea won't claim crosses. This not only means that every cross is more likely to result in chances and goals against. It also means we greatly reduce our chances of gaining control of the ball, and start a new attack.

De Gea is very poor at passing through a high press from our opponents. Instead he will boot it long on average around 20 times each game, which is quite easy for opponents to recover. This also results in a lot more chances and goals against, as well as less chances and goals created for us. We can't possibly build an attack every time the ball is given away. It means we spend a needless amount of time defending, and chasing after our opponents in the midfield. No wonder we seem to pick up so many injuries, and no wonder we seem to run out of steam after 60 minutes. Our players are spending way too much time doing intense running and pressing, because we give away the ball 20 times each game.

And finally, De Gea's shot stopping has declined. Like mentioned earlier, it has resulted in him letting in 6 unnecessary goals this season. That is by far his least serious problem, and we could manage that, if his other areas were a lot better. The big problem with this, however, is that several of these goals has led to lost points as well. It's one thing to make a clanger when we are already losing 2/3-0. But when he makes those clangers when the scoreline is tight, it directly results in incredibly valuable points dropped. So in that sense, his shot stopping is not good enough either. But it's certainly his most "manageable" deficiency.

I know I couldn't precisely answer your question, as it's very hard to quantify exactly how important his shot stopping is. But every evidence available points to it being one of the least important skills, only in relation to the other skills, and also remembering that virtually every professional goalkeeper is a decent shot stopper. It's just levels of exactly "how good". The very best shot stoppers will prevent those 6 goals, and maybe add another 6 by saving shots that really are "impossible" to save. So at most, we're talking a 10-12 goal swing by only counting shot stopping. That difference isn't negligible, but everything points to that the other areas will net you a bigger positive than that.

And finally just to clarify, those numbers aren't my estimates. They are based on the xG stats data that measure the probability of saves and goals. The less scientific "eye test" also backs these factual stats. At least if you're just partially versed in modern tactics, and especially the latest revolutionizing of older philisophies like Total Voetbal and Gegenpressing principles that permeates every top team and manager's philosophies today. Real Madrid is an outlier here, with their counter attacking style. And they got found out big time by both Barca and City this year. The main reason why Real Madrid have been so syccessful, is because they are fast, and have excellent players all suited to that style. But Pep all but proved in that semifinal which system is more likely to dominate, and destroyed Real Madrid to the 'nth degree.

Brighton has adopted this style of football, with incredible success. The only thing holding them back is their limited budget, and lack of the very, very best players. They can compete with anyone, with a squad of players almost no one had even heard about before they joined them. That's insane, and just goes to show you how effective those tactics are.

And like mentioned and so effectively proven by data in this thread, the goalkeeper is the very crucial foundation to even begin to implement that style of play. You can perfect it with great outfield players. But you can't really begin to effectively implement it until the right goalkeeper is in place. That's exactly why we had to abandon that way of playing after being humiliated by Brighton and Brentford in our first two games. After that, we just started to let De Gea boot it, lowered our defensive line, and focused more on reverting to counter attacking similar to how we played under Mourinho and Ole, albeit with a much improved and aggressively implemented pressing system than we had under those two.

Any top manager who isn't stuck in the '90s will tell you the same. And they often do in their press conferences and interviews. Especially Pep, he loves to talk tactics. No wonder he does, he's near well tweaked and perfected Total Voetbal. So that's why Jason Steele now plays for Brighton, who recently played in League Two. He isn't considered nowhere near the best goalkeeper in the world. But he can pass like there's no tomorrow. That's why Arsenal bought Ramsdale. That's why keepers like Joe Hart had no chance of playing for Pep, despite of his great shot stopping. And that's why De Gea needs replacing, and has long since been completely dropped by not only one, but two different managers for Spain's national team.
Click to expand...
Your point is a good one and I don’t disagree with it however re the bolded part that isn’t true at all. Bravo was a fantastic ball player (that’s the only reason he made it at that level!). He was just shockingly bad at every other aspect of keeping. Search Bravo best saves on YouTube and you genuinely won’t find a good one! He was the opposite extreme where he actually had none of the fundemantals required of a keeper but was only good on the ball. The reason pep binned him Is because even though he knows the importance of ball playing, he also knows that you do still need to be able to actually save goals.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Your point is a good one and I don’t disagree with it however re the bolded part that isn’t true at all. Bravo was a fantastic ball player (that’s the only reason he made it at that level!). He was just shockingly bad at every other aspect of keeping. Search Bravo best saves on YouTube and you genuinely won’t find a good one! He was the opposite extreme where he actually had none of the fundemantals required of a keeper but was only good on the ball. The reason pep binned him Is because even though he knows the importance of ball playing, he also knows that you do still need to be able to actually save goals.
Click to expand...
Good points, he was never a world class shot stopper. But he wasn't as bad as you make it out to be either.

I could easily find videos of him pulling off good saves. While I think the video title is hyperbolic (they aren't Insane saves), he shows very good positioning before shots are made. Several of the shots are aimed straight at him, but his good positioning and deflection puts the ball out of harm's way on several occasions. Much like Van der Sar - who also had good positioning - many of the shots will end up hitting him dead on center. That's just good positional goalkeeping, and of course also a touch of poor finishing in some cases. But good positioning will force poor finishing, so that's a plus, not a minus.

There are also a few worldies in there. He is especially fierce in closing down 1v1, being fast and aggressive to close down strikers running through before they can pull off a decent finish. That's a high class skill, that someone like De Gea completely lacks. It's one of the things that make Allison so good, as his 1v1 is a specialty. Bravo is good in that area, and that's an impressive and tough skill to pull off.



So I partly agree, and you made a strong argument. But he isn't as bad as you made him out to be. He just wasn't good enough for Pep.
 
Last edited:
ifightdragons said:
Good points, he was never a world class shot stopper. But he wasn't as bad as you make it out to be either.

I could easily find videos of him pulling off good saves. While I think the video title is hyperbolic (they aren't Insane saves), he shows very good positioning before shots are made. Several of the shots are aimed straight at him, but his good positioning and deflection puts the ball out of harm's way on several occasions. Much like Van Der Sar - who also had good positioning - many of the shots will end up hitting him dead on center. That's just good positional goalkeeping, and of course also a touch of poor finishing in some cases. But good positioning will force poor finishing, so that's a plus, not a minus.

There are also a few worldies in there. He is especially fierce in closing down 1v1, being fast and aggressive to close down strikers running through before they can pull off a decent finish. That's a high class skill, that someone like De Gea completely lacks. It's one of the things that make Allison so good, as his 1v1 is a specialty. Bravo is good in that area, and that's an impressive and tough skill to pull off.



So I partly agree, and you made a strong argument. But he isn't as bad as you made him out to be. He just wasn't good enough for Pep.
Click to expand...

To be fair though, compared to de Gea there isn’t a single great save in there. De Gea has made so many fantastic saves so the bar is pretty high there, I still think Bravo was much better on the ball than his other aspects, but yes agreed pep ultimately knew he wasn’t good enough overall. Ederson is certainly not the best shot stopper in the league, but does make up for it in other ways. Either way I completely agree with the point and I’ve been banging the drum for ages that we need to replace. I really do think a new even half decent keeper will make a massive difference!
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
To be fair though, compared to de Gea there isn’t a single great save in there. De Gea has made so many fantastic saves so the bar is pretty high there, I still think Bravo was much better on the ball than his other aspects, but yes agreed pep ultimately knew he wasn’t good enough overall. Ederson is certainly not the best shot stopper in the league, but does make up for it in other ways. Either way I completely agree with the point and I’ve been banging the drum for ages that we need to replace. I really do think a new even half decent keeper will make a massive difference!
Click to expand...
Yep, well said. I think we are pretty much aligned on what matters. It's come to the point where many teams have backup keepers who are better than De Gea. Many fans will scoff at that, but it's just the sad truth.

I feel bad for him at this point. Well, as bad as you can possibly feel for a multi-millionaire living a dream life. He's like a '90s keeper stuck in the present. Heck, even the keepers back then would claim crosses and get physically involved.
 
ifightdragons said:
Yep, well said. I think we are pretty much aligned on what matters. It's come to the point where many teams have backup keepers who are better than De Gea. Many fans will scoff at that, but it's just the sad truth.

I feel bad for him at this point. Well, as bad as you can possibly feel for a multi-millionaire living a dream life. He's like a '90s keeper stuck in the present. Heck, even the keepers back then would claim crosses and get physically involved.
Click to expand...
Yep agreed. I think where I differ from some is I don’t agree with the revisionism. At one stage I really do think de Gea was possibly the best keeper in the world. The saves he made I don’t think any other keeper in the world could make, but that also doesn’t stop me realising that he’s been declining since 2018 and the game has absolutely passed him by. It’s that same point that makes me believe a new keeper will be a revelation here. Hell in highlight seeing what I see now, I actually believe Alison was a bigger sighing for Liverpool than Van Dyke. The fact they both signed in the same window elevated van Dyke, Allison was such a massive upgrade for the scousers. We are crying out for the same change!
 
Rhyme Animal said:
If it’s not Onana, Costa or Raya I’d just keep DDG.

Seeing ETH going for yet more Dutch league players is making me nervous.
Click to expand...
Bloke from Feyenoord has been said to be in addition to a first choice keeper (Onana) in all I've read, rather than instead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.