70s Fantasy Draft QF3 - Cling Bak v Snow

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?


  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .

Brwned

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Apr 18, 2008
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Team Cling Bak

Some light reading

Edwin Van der Sar
820 Career appearances
130 International caps
8 League titles
2 Champions Leagues
1 UEFA Cup
Best European Goalkeeper (2): 1995, 2009
PFA Premier League Team of the Year (3): 2006–07, 2008–09, 2010–11
UEFA Euro 2008 Team of the Tournament
UEFA Club Goalkeeper of the Year (1): 2009

Gary Kelly
531 Leeds United appearances (11 PL sesons)
51 International caps
PFA Team Of The Year: 1993-94, 1999-00

Ricardo Carvalho
467 Career appearances
75 International caps
6 League titles
5 Premier Cups (FA/Copa Del/Portugese)
1 Champions League
1 UEFA Cup
Portuguese League Footballer of the Year: 2002–03
UEFA Club Best Defender of the Year: 2003–04
UEFA Team of the Year: 2003–04
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 2004
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2006
Chelsea Players' Player of the Year: 2007–08

Edmilson
French League: 2001–02, 2002–03, 2003–04
La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06
FIFA World Cup: 2002
Started both CL and WC finals

Joan Capdevila
Over 300 La Liga appearances
60 International caps
FIFA World Cup: 2010
UEFA European Football Championship: 2008
Started both WC & EC finals

Patrick Vieira
651 career appearances
107 International caps
6 League titles
5 Premier Cups (FA/Copa Del/Portugese)
Fifa World Cup: 1998
PFA Team of the Year: 1998–99, 1999–00, 2000–01, 2001–02, 2002–03, 2003–04
UEFA Team of the Year: 2001
PFA Team of the Decade

Gaizka Mendieta
362 career appearances
40 International caps
UEFA Champions League: Runner-up 1999–00, 2000–01
UEFA Champions League: Best Midfielder 1999–2000, 2000–01

Juan Roman Riquelme
Career league appearances: 377, League goals: 92
15 league goals, 2004/05
12 league goals, 2005/06
Argentine Footballer of the Year: 2000, 2001, 2008
South American Footballer of the Year: 2001
La Liga: Don Balón Award (Foreign Player of the Year) 2004–05
FIFA Confederations Cup: Silver Ball 2005
Copa Libertadores: Most Valuable Player 2007

Steve McManaman
Career apps: 579, Goals: 80
142 assists for Liverpool in 364 appearances
PFA Team of the Year: 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1998
Two time Champions League winner, Champions League Final Man of the Match: 2000

Marc Overmars
Career apps: 398, Goals: 78
Netherlands caps: 78, Goals: 17
Four league titles, one Champions League

Thierry Henry
Career apps: 694, Goals: 321, Assists: 166
PFA Team of the Year (6): 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03, 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06
Premier League Golden Boot (4): 2001–02, 2003–04, 2004–05, 2005–06.
UEFA Team of the Year (5): 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006
All time France top goalscorer

F.Morientes
573 Career appearances, 204 goals
47 Spain caps, 27 goals
3 League titles
3 Champions Leagues (and final appearances)
UEFA Forward of the Year: 2004
UEFA Champions League: Top Scorer 2004

Martin Laursen
UEFA Champions League: 2002-03
Serie A: 2003-04
53 International caps
219 Career league appearances

Ze Roberto
84 caps for Brazil
Over 100 league apps for Bayern Munich & Bayer Leverkusen
Fußball-Bundesliga: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008
La Liga: 1997

343960_Dream_Team.jpg


THIS IS HOW THE GAME STARTED. TACTICS HAVE CHANGED SINCE AT 15-12, SEE NEXT PAGE FOR CLING BAKS'S UPDATED TACTICS

Team Snow

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I'm going for a very solid 4-2-3-1 formation that should be able to deal with any variation of 4-4-2. It's the Manchester United Europe playing style. That's how I roll. With Giggs as my Giggs and Figo as my "I wish we had Figo" type player on the right I form the most dangerous winger partnership that the world has ever seen.

Making sure that they get the mall is my midfield maestro champion, Deco. Petit will pick up some grit but he's not solely going to that as my midfield works as a unit. Lampard, no matter how he's doing on the pitch, will most likely get a great shooting opportunity. He always does.


My defense is composed of great veterans in both Champions and domestic league with their respected clubs as well as on the international stage. There are no slow joes lurking there. They've got brains and balls the size of brains. They'll make sure that my goalkeeper will have as little as do as possible.

Dida: Solid goalkeeper in his prime (which is all that matters) and voted the best goalkeeper in Europe when AC Milan won them CL in 2005. Highly successful in Brazil before he came to Europe and added to his trophy cabinet.

Phil Neville: Reliable player and was our very own John O'Shea before John O'Shea became John O'Shea. At his United and England prime he was doing the left back jiggle. Did well at United and has become the captain of Everton.

Samuel Kuffour: Played many years in the heart of the Bayern Munchen defense along with Thomas Linke. They made up the best defensive pair in the Bundesliga and won the CL shortly after the famous final in '99. 2 times African player of the year (runner up) and the Ashford & Simpson song solid could well be a description for his defensive capabilities

Jens Nowotny: Leverkusen were a European powerhouse for two years with the likes of Nowotny and Ramelow in defense, Ballack and Ze Roberto in midfield. They're the reason for the teams almost success in every stage. Masters of runner-upery but that was not the defenses fault. Only player in my team who's not won a major trophy

Fabio Cannavaro: Best player in the world in 2006, twice in a row awarded the best defender in Italy, has been in the team of the tournament at both the WC and EC. 136 caps for Italy. One of the greatest defenders of his generation.

Emmanuel Petit: He paired up with Vieira and won the WC and PL but before that he captained Monaco to a league title. His midfield prowess were rivaled only by his partner and our own midfield at the time and made for heated battles.

Deco: The Brazilian "Portuguese" playmaker joins golden generation player and "countrymen" Figo in the middle. He's won the league in 4 different countries and has 2 CL medals with two different teams and with those two teams he's been voted the best midfielder in the CL on each occasion. The maestro in my midfield and makes my game flow on like a clock like my girl Kesha preaches about.

Luis Figo: I can't describe him properly without filling the page. Best player in the world in 2001 and one of the best almost his whole career. Not many have more trophies than him and he's achieved it with 3 different clubs. Simply a great great great player.

Frank Lampard: We love to hate him because he's just so damn good at scoring goals. Can't think of many midfielders that rival him in that aspect. An intelligent player who's a model of consistency. He plays in his favorite spot where I'll get the most out of him.

Ryan Giggs: It's Ryan fecking Giggs. Great now at age 38 but remember him in his prime? I certainly do

Patrick Kluivert: At birth him and Ruud decided to share their careers fairly. Patrick burst on to the scene with Ajax, who with their golden generation won it all. In his prime he played alone up front at Barcelona with Rivaldo behind him and that is the role he plays for me. In that role he managed to become the 4th ever top goal scorer for the Catalans (now 6th after Messi and Eto'o) and is still the top goal scorer for the Netherlands. He won the golden boot at Euro 2000 where the Dutch lost in penalties to Italy.

Substitute: Nicholas Anelka
A footballer who's been in an endless search to find himself. On his way he's won a number of league titles in different countries and a CL medal as well. Golden boot winner whilst at Chelsea he's a sub that can come on for any one of players really. Gives me the option of changing into a 4-4-2 with Frings, Petit or Ballack out. I could even play a three man defense and take out Neville if drastic measures are needed. Great bench option.

Gabriel Heinze: He was purchased to United for being good at football. He certainly showed that and was voted our best player in the 04/05 season. A fan favorite before he became 2nd fiddle after a long term injury. But he moved on an went on to Real Madrid and then Marseille, picking up some trophies along the way. A veteran of every stage of football like his other defensive members.

Torsten Frings: With Frings I've got a player with great vision and passing, hard tackling and a great shooter. He's like a mix between Pirlo and a regular German defensive midfielder. Sporting the hair, shooting and passing of Pirlo with the tackling, work rate and nationality of a German. Great fit next to Petit.

Footnote:
My team has 2 Ballon d'Or winners, 62 league medals, 11 CL medals, 1 EC winner and 3 WC winners, 1 Copa America and Libertadores winner and 115 different cup medals which include the Cup Winners Cup, FA Cup, various Super Cups etc.

Player honors they've got plenty of as well.
 
fecking hell Cling, no tactics explanation? No Mendieta-Vieira swap?

Or is it Brwned posted the teamsheet he posted earlier?
 
Interesting battle. Cling's midfield would dominate while Giggs and Figo would give Kelly and Capdevilla a chasing. I suspect Overmars and McManaman would do the same to Kuffour and Neville though as well. Snow's best hope would be sitting deep and hitting on the break.

fecking hell Cling, no tactics explanation? No Mendieta-Vieira swap?

Or is it Brwned posted the teamsheet he posted earlier?

I'd prefer to see Mendieta on the right because it gives him more scope to move forward. At the same time, he's the only one of the three midfielders with a decent left peg on him so it's not too much of a crime.
 
I obviously have the better defense to cope with attacks. Capdevila vs Figo is a no contest. Henry's height is never a problem since he's bad in the air. Kluivert however is taller than both the center backs. He'll like playing against them.

Cling is stronger in center mid but not my a significant margin. That would be stupid to say against what I've got. When I've got the ball it won't be hard to keep possession with little defensive capabilities from Riquelme, Overmars and McManaman. When defending Cling plays 4-4-2 because Riquelme is not going to be doing anything to help.

I'll be playing my own game like already explained. Kuffour is quick and strong. Like the better version of Micah Richards if you will. More limited going forward but that's okay. My fullbacks are never going to be going much forward. I'm not going to offer that space like Cling will.
 
Bit surprised your playing Neville ahead of Heinze at LB.
 
fecking hell Cling, no tactics explanation? No Mendieta-Vieira swap?

Or is it Brwned posted the teamsheet he posted earlier?

I just took the teamsheet he posted earlier because I don't think he cares much about exact positions and he doesn't do tactics he just does those stats.
 
I obviously have the better defense

Well, with Phil Neville at left back, Kuffour on the right (he's a CB) and Notowny no better than 'good' at this stage of the competion, I really, really question the cheek of that comment when compared with the accolades and experience my team has.

You also have Dida in goal, so a few long range efforts and crosses into the box will not go amiss here. He's always good for a mistake, even when he's supposed to be at his best.

Kluivert however is taller than both the center backs. He'll like playing against them.

Edmilson is 6ft1, strong and good in the air. Carvalho is also excellent in the air, with a great leap and good pace to cover along the deck.

Riquelme is not going to be doing anything to help.

He's going to help by giving your midfield and defence the run around. He'll pick Henry, Overmars and McManaman out at will and take most set pieces. He'll be given licence to control this match.

Kuffour is quick and strong. Like the better version of Micah Richards if you will.

Interesting to say about a central defender playing on the right, but go on...

More limited going forward but that's okay. My fullbacks are never going to be going much forward.

But you just said he's a better version of Richards. Micah Richards' game at right back is so effective because of the frequency with which he goes forward. That's why he's so good at it what he does, as it adds to his strong defending. To be a better version, you'd need to be better in both areas.

You cannot compare the two anyway, because Kuffour was a centre back - easily his strongest position. Overmars, who can go outside or cut in, will give him the run around because of this selection.
 
I just took the teamsheet he posted earlier because I don't think he cares much about exact positions and he doesn't do tactics he just does those stats.

Me and the team discuss tactics, we do not share these in pre-match press conferences.
 
without going into too much detail, the defences and forward 3s are around equal, but Cling stengthened his midfield substantionally after the group so that along with his superior keeper wins this match for him
 
If Snow was playing Heinze at LB I would have considered this more.

Baffling decision not to in my opinion

Infact Cling Bak gets my vote. Both teams have terrible fullbacks though and I feel that will be their downfall in future games.

Cling Bak's midfield is a treat though
 
Think the midfields are pretty even really, wingers go with Figo/Giggs(especially with both having the intelligence to drop in and let Deco go deeper into a midfield battle, Macca could do it quite well too though), Striker Henry, Cannavaro best defender on show, Snows is more solid for me though, and VDS is vastly above Dida...

So yeah, I voted for Snow.
 
If Snow was playing Heinze at LB I would have considered this more.

Baffling decision not to in my opinion

Infact Cling Bak gets my vote. Both teams have terrible fullbacks though and I feel that will be their downfall in future games.

Cling Bak's midfield is a treat though

Still bitter ey? Terrible full backs :wenger:
 
Well, with Phil Neville at left back, Kuffour on the right (he's a CB) and Notowny no better than 'good' at this stage of the competion, I really, really question the cheek of that comment when compared with the accolades and experience my team has.

You also have Dida in goal, so a few long range efforts and crosses into the box will not go amiss here. He's always good for a mistake, even when he's supposed to be at his best.



Edmilson is 6ft1, strong and good in the air. Carvalho is also excellent in the air, with a great leap and good pace to cover along the deck.



He's going to help by giving your midfield and defence the run around. He'll pick Henry, Overmars and McManaman out at will and take most set pieces. He'll be given licence to control this match.



Interesting to say about a central defender playing on the right, but go on...



But you just said he's a better version of Richards. Micah Richards' game at right back is so effective because of the frequency with which he goes forward. That's why he's so good at it what he does, as it adds to his strong defending. To be a better version, you'd need to be better in both areas.

You cannot compare the two anyway, because Kuffour was a centre back - easily his strongest position. Overmars, who can go outside or cut in, will give him the run around because of this selection.

Nowotny only good? You seriously think Edmilson is better? Neither of your center backs are excellent in the air. That's a big overstatement. A competent ref will see through Carvalho's shirt pulling.

Kuffour is a better defender than Michah Richards. That's all I want from my full backs. Be good at defending. And Kuffour played both positions. Same as me saying that Edmilson is a defensive midfielder but you use him in center back. Before he was in midfield. What's up with that? Kluivert will have a field day against him.
 
His prime was was at left back with England. Plus Kuffour is quick and used to play at right back as well.

Yes but Heinze at his prime (one season tbf) was a better full back than Phil.
 
Yes but Heinze at his prime (one season tbf) was a better full back than Phil.

Phil is more stable and smarter. That's why I went for him. Better against McManaman to use your brains. He'd also know his strengths better. Heinze probably doesn't even know who he is.
 
Nowotny only good? You seriously think Edmilson is better? Neither of your center backs are excellent in the air. That's a big overstatement. A competent ref will see through Carvalho's shirt pulling.

Kuffour is a better defender than Michah Richards. That's all I want from my full backs. Be good at defending. And Kuffour played both positions. Same as me saying that Edmilson is a defensive midfielder but you use him in center back. Before he was in midfield. What's up with that? Kluivert will have a field day against him.

Edmilson played a World Cup final at central defence. He played the whole tournament there. Brazil conceded four goals from seven games.

Every big game Kuffour played, he played at centre-back.
 
Edmilson played a World Cup final at central defence. He played the whole tournament there. Brazil conceded four goals from seven games.

Every big game Kuffour played, he played at centre-back.

Every big game he played at center back? I'd like a proof of that please.
He's very capable at right back because of his speed and athleticism.

Edmilson played in a 5 man defense as well with two defensive midfielders in front of him. Not surprising that they managed to concede less than a goal per game against Belgium, Costa Rica and China.
Spain conceded less in their WC win but I highly doubt any people attribute that to Capdevila's defensive capabilities.

You seem to dodge mentioning Cannavaro at all costs. Yes. I have Cannavaro. One of the best defenders of his generations.
 
Another tie is a possibility, have we got Zen on the standby :p
 
Looking ahead, I wonder how both teams would strengthen. Snow would surely take either Mendieta or Vieira to boost the midfield, while Cling could either take Figo and have a phenomenal front four, or choose Cannavaro and strengthen his not particularly strong defence.
 
Every big game he played at center back? I'd like a proof of that please.
He's very capable at right back because of his speed and athleticism.

Here are the teams for the major senior finals he's played in:

2006 Coppa Italia Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2002
2001 UEFA Champions League Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1999
1999 UEFA Champions League Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1998

In all, he's playing at central defence.

I am not knocking him as a player, I am questioning the position he's been picked. I wouldn't have even done that had you not been so quick to say you had the better of the two defences.

Edmilson played in a 5 man defense as well with two defensive midfielders in front of him. Not surprising that they managed to concede less than a goal per game against Belgium, Costa Rica and China.
Spain conceded less in their WC win but I highly doubt any people attribute that to Capdevila's defensive capabilities.

Yeah, why not just neglect to mention Turkey, England and Germany, eh?!

Thanks for pointing out more defensive records for my other players. Capdevila won international football's biggest prizes as a mainstay in the team that many consider to be one of the greatest internationally ever. Therefore, he's playing this match wearing those medals around his neck.

You seem to dodge mentioning Cannavaro at all costs. Yes. I have Cannavaro. One of the best defenders of his generations.

I'm not dodging it, you're the one who began a slanging match. I didn't need to pick on your players.

Cannavaro was class, of course. He'll also be playing for me after this game. ;)
 
Here are the teams for the major senior finals he's played in:

2006 Coppa Italia Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2002
2001 UEFA Champions League Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1999
1999 UEFA Champions League Final - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1998

In all, he's playing at central defence.

I am not knocking him as a player, I am questioning the position he's been picked. I wouldn't have even done that had you not been so quick to say you had the better of the two defences.



Yeah, why not just neglect to mention Turkey, England and Germany, eh?!

Thanks for pointing out more defensive records for my other players. Capdevila won international football's biggest prizes as a mainstay in the team that many consider to be one of the greatest internationally ever. Therefore, he's playing this match wearing those medals around his neck.



I'm not dodging it, you're the one who began a slanging match. I didn't need to pick on your players.

Cannavaro was class, of course. He'll also be playing for me after this game. ;)

Fact is he's played plenty of times at right back because how his strengths. Overmars is very quick. You need a quick man against him. Better to have him there than lose Nowotny out of the team.

I didn't neglect the other games. You said the conceded 4 times in 7 games. I mentioned those three very easy games for a reason. 5 man defense+2 defensive midfielders against Costa Rica and China. I'd be disappointed to see Iceland concede in those games.
Against Turkey they conceded. Against England they conceded. They beat England because of that Ronaldinho free kick where Seaman wasn't thinking. Rivaldo had that famous moment against Turkey which resulted in a sending off as well. It was 1-1 against Turkey up until two sending offs.

I don't want to get into that too much though. Brazil had Roque Junior there as well and Fergie bought Kleberson after the tournament. He played every minute of the tournament.

It wasn't a slanging match. Both teams are overall very very even. I merely point out that I have better wingers and a better back 4. You have the better goalkeeper and central midfield. You also have a better striker but I feel Kluivert fits the system better. At least from my part. There are few strikers that would fit my team better. Possibly only Ronaldo, because he's Ronaldo, and Shevchenko, Vieiri or Drogba. But Kluivert was a great player in his prime and usually played up top alone.
 
Every big game he played at center back? I'd like a proof of that please.
He's very capable at right back because of his speed and athleticism.

Edmilson played in a 5 man defense as well with two defensive midfielders in front of him. Not surprising that they managed to concede less than a goal per game against Belgium, Costa Rica and China.
Spain conceded less in their WC win but I highly doubt any people attribute that to Capdevila's defensive capabilities.

You seem to dodge mentioning Cannavaro at all costs. Yes. I have Cannavaro. One of the best defenders of his generations.

That means nothing sadly
 
No wonder you broke your finger. Probably punched the wall in frustration after getting pumped out of the competition.

:lol:

Am I not allowed to get involved in this anymore or something?

I think Cling Bak has the better side, what is the issue with that?

The point about Cannavaro is valid. It doesn't matter how good he was if there are weaknesses elsewhere.
 
Cling on paper looks more attractive but delving deeper it is somewhat different.

Note: This has nothing to do with trophies, I don't care much for that, many of this players won trophies off the back of superb teams for which they were just a cog in the wheel. Zola, to give an example, would walk into these teams but never won much. Doesn't make him a worse player.

The fullbacks are poor at this level, agree with whoever said that. However, I can see Neville dealing with McManaman a lot more than Capdevila with Figo. Same holds for Giggs on Kelly vs. Overmars on Kuffour, particularly as Snow has indicated they will be conservative and focus on the basics. I consider this a marginal advantage but one in a key area.

CBs Cannavaro>Carvalho and Nowotny v Edmilson couldn't tell, inclined to say Nowotny who was very good but underrated, while Edmilson was not as good a CB as his trophy count may indicate. I do rate Henry higher than Kluivert but can see Cannavaro keeping him in his pocket more than the others could with Kluivert. VDS>Dida makes all this penalty box action somewhat square to me.

On to midfield, Cling Bak has significantly improved his but Riquelme continues to be a liability as far as workrate goes (brilliant once in possession though). Deco contributes significantly more defensively (clearly a contentious statement from previous discussions) and helps make up for it.

I'm really, really, REALLY torn here over whether Snow wouldn't be better off with Frings instead of Lampard. I would squarely give him the midfield battle then, but he would have lost the possibility of a typical Lampard deflected goal.

I think Snow may still match or win the midfield battle. Riquelme is the superior outlet but all three of Snow's can pass a good ball. They can also score more and Mendieta's contribution is subdued by being on the wrong side. May be another marginal advantage in a key area.

TBH, what would settle it for me is the presence of a midfielder with the mentality and sheer bloody mindedness to really take the game by the scruff of the neck and make it all happen. None of those could do what Keano did in Turin. Vieira is NOT that sort of player and that was the main difference I always saw between them when people banged on about who was better about 10 years ago.

As it stands it is all rather murky.
 
TBH, what would settle it for me is the presence of a midfielder with the mentality and sheer bloody mindedness to really take the game by the scruff of the neck and make it all happen. None of those could do what Keano did in Turin. Vieira is NOT that sort of player and that was the main difference I always saw between them when people banged on about who was better about 10 years ago.

Mendieta did that often enough between 1998 and 2001. Pity he's got the handbrake on in the left side.
 
Thanks for pointing out more defensive records for my other players. Capdevila won international football's biggest prizes as a mainstay in the team that many consider to be one of the greatest internationally ever.

Really? :confused: I assume you are talking Spain recently and not in that World Cup, they never really turned it on.

Therefore, he's playing this match wearing those medals around his neck.
Oh God, they got tangled up in Figo's studs as he left him on his arse. He has been dragged a few yards and decapitated as he crossed. You are down a man.

Cannavaro was class, of course. He'll also be playing for me after this game. ;)
Clearly what you should go for.
 
I sense you overrate him somewhat, as good as he was.

Overrate him? He's quite clearly one of the best defenders of his generation. It's arguable who's the best in this draft but Cannavaro is certainly one of those arguments. I don't know what you've seen of him but he just peaked before joining Madrid.
 
Mendieta did that often enough between 1998 and 2001. Pity he's got the handbrake on in the left side.

Exactly, he is the only one I can recall doing that. Wonder about Deco... didn't see that much of him at Porto.