63% of Liverpool squad "asthmatic" - any substance to this article?

RobinLFC said:
Yeah so we agree with each other, I think. And I think it's the bolded part that's true.
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Yes, if it came across as me challenging you then I said it wrong.

I don't trust any professional athlete, I'm way past that, but in my opinion organized doping in top football clubs right now would probably be about "marginal gains", injury prevention and restoration. They'll all be puffing inhalers like Team Sky, with a doctors note. Of course there are methods beyond this, and I know at least on track there are very concrete suspicions, but at least in my opinion there are no football teams where the athletic performance dictates anything like that.

Again, nothing would surprise me, though.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Maybe, but generally top athletes have asthma rates at least 2-3 times higher than the general population, so those expectations would be wrong.

I'm 95 % sure that the share of United players with asthma is drastically higher than 10 %. It might not be 60 %, but this article being as bad as it is it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't 60 for Pool either (nor would it surprise me if it was).

If you're willing to condemn United as cheaters if the squad is drastically higher than 8 % then by all means, but be prepared for disappointment.
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That's what suspicious.
 
Withnail said:
That's what suspicious.
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Probably, but maybe not (I don't know if exercise induced asthma is a real thing or an excuse, or if athletes are drastically more likely to be diagnosed because we care more about their lungs). If it is, then gunning for Liverpool may prove to be embarrassing in the future.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Probably, but maybe not (I don't know if exercise induced asthma is a real thing or an excuse, or if athletes are drastically more likely to be diagnosed because we care more about their lungs). If it is, then gunning for Liverpool may prove to be embarrassing in the future.
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The article singles Liverpool out and is a bit sensationalist but it wouldn't surprise me at all if premier league clubs were doing exactly what we know cyclists, skiers and athletes to be up to.

In fact I'd be surprised if they weren't pushing the boundaries of what's legal.
 
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Hate to be that guy... but why are there 3 pages of people taking for granted some shady article without any sources about the asthma numbers? Even the Liverpool fan didn't dispute the numbers :lol: Sounds like complete bs, the conspiracy blogger was even questioned in comments and couldn't prove it
 
MaxiPaxi said:
It’s only a matter of time before someone blows the lid on doping in football. Not just in Liverpool but in all football at the highest levels. I also have absolutely no evidence to prove this.
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I think it will always be a case of the best getting suspicions thrown after them by some, YET I still agree that in general, it is highly suspect how little attention is given to heavy and light doping in football both by anti doping systems and journalists. Compared to cycling, where suddenly doping was the top storyline for a few years running, or criss country skiing, where entire national teams have been ousted from world competition and the worlds best skier (Therese Johaug) was banned for two years for using the wrong lip balm, it’s clear that a lot of people in and around football aren’t doing their job.

I’m against throwing out accusations at the best, yet I’m all fore that anti doping agencies and journalists take an extra good look at anyone with particularily high physical output.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Maybe, but generally top athletes have asthma rates at least 2-3 times higher than the general population, so those expectations would be wrong.
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According to this its a grey area even among respiratory consultants. The conditions of extreme exercise that athletes are subjected to can effectively cause asthma but in normal conditions they wouldn't necessarily have it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/29/elite-athletes-asthma-simon-yates-team-sky-swimmers

I actually had an exercise induced asthma attack as a kid but never quite read for it in controlled tests at the doctors. I still use salbutamol for allergy induced tightness of chest (helps me to sleep and run through the summer) even though my last asthma test was completely clear.
 
Statistically you have a better chance of winning an olympic medal if you are asthmatic, same for winning the TDF and many other endurance based sports.
 
paraguayo said:
Hate to be that guy... but why are there 3 pages of people taking for granted some shady article without any sources about the asthma numbers? Even the Liverpool fan didn't dispute the numbers :lol: Sounds like complete bs, the conspiracy blogger was even questioned in comments and couldn't prove it
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I didn’t even read the article. Anyone suggesting that Liverpool is on PEDs while other top clubs are clean is just insane imo. As if Klopp has a magic doping formula that no one in the world of football bar Pep knows about, and brought it with him, come on now. Oh and Dortmund knows about it too but stopped using it for some reason? Yeah...

That said I fully expect, and would want it too, that Liverpool (and hopefully for other top clubs, them too) do everything within the legal boundaries to earn so much as a .1% marginal gain. That’s what sports at the highest level is about.
 
Withnail said:
That's what suspicious.
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But part of that is a lot of the general population probably haven’t been diagnosed as having asthma when they have it as they don’t have the same level of medical attention as athletes do
 
If this is true then to be honest I am a bit shocked, or are clubs banking on the privacy of medical history. Regardless, the amount they run, it is quite breathable.
 
It’s mad how all the asthmathic have crazy stamina. I had asthma as a kid and my stamina was always atrocious.
 
Maxii said:
But part of that is a lot of the general population probably haven’t been diagnosed as having asthma when they have it as they don’t have the same level of medical attention as athletes do
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It's certainly a grey area. I'm just very suspicious of anything like this, given the stakes are so high and we've seen the boundaries of what's legal being pushed and often over-stepped in practically every sport.

Nick7 said:
It’s mad how all the asthmathic have crazy stamina. I had asthma as a kid and my stamina was always atrocious.
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A study in 2011 showed that asthmatic athletes have out-performed non-asthmatic athletes in every Olympic Games since 2000.

There is also the fact that there is no evidence that inhaled asthma drugs improve performance which gives legitimacy to the diagnosis and treatment.

Although, if they take it orally or via a nebuliser it can be performance-enhancing.
 
Withnail said:
A study in 2011 showed that asthmatic athletes have out-performed non-asthmatic athletes in every Olympic Games since 2000.

There is also the fact that there is no evidence that inhaled asthma drugs improve performance which gives legitimacy to the diagnosis and treatment.

Although, if they take it orally or via a nebuliser it can be performance-enhancing.
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I can't say I've looked into it, and obviously my experience is just anecdotal and ignoring any other factors, but I would be completley blown up way earlier than most other kids on my team when running continuously with my lungs feeling the brunt of it.
 
LochGormanAbú said:
Statistically you have a better chance of winning an olympic medal if you are asthmatic, same for winning the TDF and many other endurance based sports.
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That's one of the dodgiest stats I've ever seen. One would think it's the other way around but I'd be curious to know how many of our players are asthmatic.
 
Bazi said:
Na. Asthma is very convenient when you need legal access to certain substances on the doping list. Having a squad full of players diagnosed as asthmatics is a carbon copy of the cycling's 101 for dopers.
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Here’s your answer. Doctor diagnosed ailments get you access to all kinds of top shelf banned substances.
 
Wouldn't surprise me one bit if they are doping. I've never seen a team play like that with not much rotating going on.
 
GazTheLegend said:
Indeed.

100% of the Premier League are "Clean" athletes in a sport absolutely dominated by speed and endurance levels? Massively funded with HUGE rewards? And a totally lax doping system?

Has there EVER been a failure in a Premier League doping test, besides Man City and West Ham conveniently missing the 3 whereabouts test with a tiny slap on the wrist.
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Funny how the rules regarding missing test now includes a fiver in fine instead of 8 months ban? Even players who were found doping didn't get banned for as long as Rio.

UweBein said:
The effect can be dramatic. When I took cortisone for 3 months, I could ride my bike full speed for 15-20 minutes - hardly any fatigue afterwards. Without cortisone, I could last 5-10 minutes - and was really exhausted. Now, I heard the effect is not the same for everyone..,
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The UK has around 12% of the population asthmatic, but in the northern regions it's lower..
Cortisone is in all the riders blood tests. They get it for saddle sores so easy to get prescription for that for any athlete. It helps the body heal tissue damage, increases glucose in the bloodstream and helps shut down unnecessary organ functions like in a fight or flight mode. You could bet your ass most athletes are misusing cortisone.
 
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The Red Thinker said:
That's one of the dodgiest stats I've ever seen. One would think it's the other way around but I'd be curious to know how many of our players are asthmatic.
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Aye, not sure how accurate it is, heard it before. This is a an actual stat though - In the 2008 Beijing Games, 17 percent of cyclists and 19 percent of swimmers had asthma and yet they captured 29 and 33 percent of the medals in those sports, respectively. And from 2016:
British swimming squad and found 70% (of 33) had some form of asthma, against a national asthma rate of about 8% to 10%.
Tests on cyclists from Team Sky found a third have the condition.
Around half of elite cross-country skiers have the condition.

I think the point being made was around the use of TUE's which could be abused for performance enhancement. The question often being pondered, do all these athletes really have Asthma? Some notable names that have generated a lot of debate around this - Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins, both multiple TDF winners. Nadal in tennis. Mo Farah.
 
Wasnt Scholes genuinely asthmatic and there were doubts as a result if he would make it in pro football? Now however success is only guaranteed if you are asthmatic!
 
duffer said:
It's not really in the Premier League's interest to give a shit about doping. I can see why they don't care (I certainly don't).
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I 100% do care and to be honest everyone should.

Look up the story of Allan McGraw to see an example of EXACTLY why we should. Clubs don't give a feck about players health, they care about winning. Let's be honest - players barely care about their health compared to winning. If you said "you could win the champions League within 2-3 years but your heart might explode when you're 40-50" most of them would still do it.
 
Only a matter of time. Liverpool aren’t really a good team and it’s clearly doping.

As mentioned before how come all the best cyclists are asthmatic? Something that literally depends on strong lungs?
 
Cliche Guevara said:
Only a matter of time. Liverpool aren’t really a good team and it’s clearly doping.

As mentioned before how come all the best cyclists are asthmatic? Something that literally depends on strong lungs?
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An assessment of the British Cycling team before the 2004 Olympics showed that around 40 per cent had asthma compared to only about eight per cent of the general population. For Dickinson, this discrepancy stands to reason.

“Athletes are far more prone to asthma-related problems, mainly because of the environments they’re exposed to and the conditions required by the sport, such as the high breathing rates over prolonged periods.

“Cycling is done outdoors, often in dry, polluted air — there are lots of reasons for the high prevalence.”
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...

But it's clearly doping for Liverpool yeah, it's so obvious that, in a highly competitive sports environment, only Klopp and our medical team know something that no other team in the world knows, and they're cheating without getting caught.

Clearly.
 
RobinLFC said:
...

But it's clearly doping for Liverpool yeah, it's so obvious that, in a highly competitive sports environment, only Klopp and our medical team know something that no other team in the world knows, and they're cheating without getting caught.

Clearly.
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Even in cycling the percentage of "asthmatics" in the peleton was eventually deemed problematic and the number has since drastically decreased.

63% on a football team that is exposed to far lower risk factors would be almost as high as the estimated maximum percentage ever recorded during the Tour de France.

You would have to be extra naive to believe that such a percentage is normal.
 
Bazi said:
Even in cycling the percentage of "asthmatics" in the peleton was eventually deemed problematic and the number has since drastically decreased.

63% on a football team that is exposed to far lower risk factors would be almost as high as the estimated maximum percentage ever recorded during the Tour de France.

You would have to be extra naive to believe that such a percentage is normal.
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First of all, you'd have to believe the 63% is actually true. And even if it is, I have yet to read an argument that we're doing anything illegal in that case.
 
This article doesn't surprise me at all seeing that they were playing like headless chickens running around without dropping down all season - well except after the restart when there was a significant difference in performance.

Makes one think doesn't it ?!
 
RobinLFC said:
...

But it's clearly doping for Liverpool yeah, it's so obvious that, in a highly competitive sports environment, only Klopp and our medical team know something that no other team in the world knows, and they're cheating without getting caught.

Clearly.
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Your argument is that all teams would be doing it, but what if doping of this level in football hasn’t actually been that commonplace until recently and as things stand only some clubs or managers have explored it and taken it to this point? Or maybe there’s only a few unscrupulous doctors to go around?

People make out like professional football will be at the cutting edge of technology, but clearly United weren’t even keeping track of basic fitness for a period, and you only need to watch one of these documentaries to realise clubs operate like any big company, which isn’t always perfect, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if some weren’t up to speed, so to speak, especially in our case with all the changes to staff in recent years.
 
VeevaVee said:
Your argument is that all teams would be doing it, but what if doping of this level in football hasn’t actually been that commonplace until recently and as things stand only some clubs or managers have explored it and taken it to this point? Or maybe there’s only a few unscrupulous doctors to go around?

People make out like professional football will be at the cutting edge of technology, but clearly United weren’t even keeping track of basic fitness for a period, and you only need to watch one of these documentaries to realise clubs operate like any big company, which isn’t always perfect, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if some weren’t up to speed, so to speak, especially in our case with all the changes to staff in recent years.
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First off, taking pills, products or whatever based on a legal prescription isn't "doping" in the sense of the word how it's known in sports. If anyone wants to accuse anyone it should be the doctors handing out those prescriptions if you don't believe the quoted figures.

There are a thousand articles around about asthma in sports and the effects of its treatment on performances. Do you honestly think that medical staff at a top football club in the world doesn't look into every single detail that could potentially give even just the slightest nudge to their players? If not, you have employed the wrong medical staff as a club and are lagging behind, and that's not the fault of clubs that are in fact doing it. If I became part of Liverpool's medical staff tomorrow, not a week would go by before I'd google "marginal gains in football" or "how to improve fitness legally", or anything that might give them a competitive advantage over another team. Every team is trying to do that, whether every team employs the same tactics or is as successful at it is another matter.

Also, Klopp worked with Dortmund's medical staff, Pep with Bayern's and Barca's. Going by your logic, Klopp also had his players running around like maniacs in Dortmund, so the medical staff would've been aware of his "doping". Yet when he left, they just decided to stop using the methods that gave them an advantage and revert back to "normal"? That sounds ridiculous.
 
RobinLFC said:
First off, taking pills, products or whatever based on a legal prescription isn't "doping" in the sense of the word how it's known in sports. If anyone wants to accuse anyone it should be the doctors handing out those prescriptions if you don't believe the quoted figures.

There are a thousand articles around about asthma in sports and the effects of its treatment on performances. Do you honestly think that medical staff at a top football club in the world doesn't look into every single detail that could potentially give even just the slightest nudge to their players? If not, you have employed the wrong medical staff as a club and are lagging behind, and that's not the fault of clubs that are in fact doing it. If I became part of Liverpool's medical staff tomorrow, not a week would go by before I'd google "marginal gains in football" or "how to improve fitness legally", or anything that might give them a competitive advantage over another team. Every team is trying to do that, whether every team employs the same tactics or is as successful at it is another matter.

Also, Klopp worked with Dortmund's medical staff, Pep with Bayern's and Barca's. Going by your logic, Klopp also had his players running around like maniacs in Dortmund, so the medical staff would've been aware of his "doping". Yet when he left, they just decided to stop using the methods that gave them an advantage and revert back to "normal"? That sounds ridiculous.
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I didn’t say anything like what you said is ridiculous though, you just said that :lol:
I have no idea if Dortmund ran around like maniacs. How do you know Klopp didn’t decide to explore this when he arrived at Liverpool?

The rest doesn’t mean anything. Just because you’d Google it isn’t a counter argument to what I said. There’s a good chance this is done on different levels and is still being explored, or some are willing to take more risks.

To do it there would have to be a very small number of privy parties. Maybe not every club has those people willing to ruin their reputation or go to prison if it comes out.
 
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I genuinely wonder whether football players even realise they're partially doping?

If the coach /club doctor comes in and says "lad in your medical you've come up as being shown slightly asthmatic, but nothing to worry about you'll just need to use this inhaler before the match starts, you'll be fine". They'd pretty much always go along with it as long as it's safe, i doubt they'd even ask another question.

With the rise of pressing in football recovery has never been more important, and it's no surprise that Barcelona were the first clear team to me that looked like doping. These turbo midgets became faster, stronger and fitter than ever under Guardiola, very odd.

Pep then fell out with the Bayern Munich club doctor, wonder why that was?

Pep then went to City and players like De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva became absolute physical monsters. Heh.
 
RobinLFC said:
First of all, you'd have to believe the 63% is actually true. And even if it is, I have yet to read an argument that we're doing anything illegal in that case.
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If the 63% number is accurate it's not conclusive evidence on its own, but it's the starting point of an investigation.

If a certain percentage of these asthma diagnoses are actually fake then that's certainly illegal. Most likely the doctors would get their licenses revoked and possibly prosecuted. If there's a system in place at Liverpool which encourages doctors (through financial incentives for example) to manufacture such diagnoses then that's a matter that is equivalent of doping and could have much more dire legal consequences for the football club.

That being said, I don't hold my breath that anything like this ever happens. The fight against PEDs in football has been a bad joke for many years. The only thing they seem to detect is when a poor idiot is coked up during the drug test.
 
VeevaVee said:
I didn’t say anything like what you said is ridiculous though, you just said that :lol:
I have no idea if Dortmund ran around like maniacs. How do you know Klopp didn’t decide to explore this when he arrived at Liverpool?

The rest doesn’t mean anything. Just because you’d Google it isn’t a counter argument to what I said. There’s a good chance this is done on different levels and is still being explored, or some are willing to take more risks.

To do it there would have to be a very small number of privy parties. Maybe not every club has those people willing to ruin their reputation or go to prison if it comes out.
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As long as it's legal and we're doing it on a different level than most other clubs, I'd say our medical department is better in that case then.

Bazi said:
If the 63% number is accurate it's not conclusive evidence on its own, but it's the starting point of an investigation.

If a certain percentage of these asthma diagnoses are actually fake then that's certainly illegal. Most likely the doctors would get their licenses revoked and possibly prosecuted. If there's a system in place at Liverpool which encourages doctors (through financial incentives for example) to manufacture such diagnoses then that's a matter that is equivalent of doping and could have much more dire legal consequences for the football club.

That being said, I don't hold my breath that anything like this ever happens. The fight against PEDs in football has been a bad joke for many years. The only thing they seem to detect is when a poor idiot is coked up during the drug test.
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Not really, if our players are taking things based on a legal prescription they're doing nothing wrong and the only one who could stand for trial is the doctor handing out fake prescriptions. Your bolded part is quite a leap and just a wild guess. Obviously that would be illegal and we should be punished but like I said, literally nothing so far suggests that that's the case.

Adam-Utd said:
I genuinely wonder whether football players even realise they're partially doping?

If the coach /club doctor comes in and says "lad in your medical you've come up as being shown slightly asthmatic, but nothing to worry about you'll just need to use this inhaler before the match starts, you'll be fine". They'd pretty much always go along with it as long as it's safe, i doubt they'd even ask another question.

With the rise of pressing in football recovery has never been more important, and it's no surprise that Barcelona were the first clear team to me that looked like doping. These turbo midgets became faster, stronger and fitter than ever under Guardiola, very odd.

Pep then fell out with the Bayern Munich club doctor, wonder why that was?

Pep then went to City and players like De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva became absolute physical monsters. Heh.
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De Bruyne has been a monster as far back as his days in Genk, to say he became one when Pep joined is just re-writing history.

Also taking an inhaler before a match starts does not enhance performances at all. Besides that point though - yes they just take whatever the doctors says they need to take. So do all cyclists. They're athletes and not doctors, they're not exactly in a position to question what's prescribed for them.
 
RobinLFC said:
As long as it's legal and we're doing it on a different level than most other clubs, I'd say our medical department is better in that case then.


Not really, if our players are taking things based on a legal prescription they're doing nothing wrong and the only one who could stand for trial is the doctor handing out fake prescriptions. Your bolded part is quite a leap and just a wild guess. Obviously that would be illegal and we should be punished but like I said, literally nothing so far suggests that that's the case.


De Bruyne has been a monster as far back as his days in Genk, to say he became one when Pep joined is just re-writing history.

Also taking an inhaler before a match starts does not enhance performances at all. Besides that point though - yes they just take whatever the doctors says they need to take. So do all cyclists. They're athletes and not doctors, they're not exactly in a position to question what's prescribed for them.
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It’s not legal if a doctor is falsely diagnosing a lung condition though. Nor is it right in any other way. And I think you know that.
 
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