5 years without a trophy - Further away than ever

Status
Not open for further replies.
We have to be patient this year and maybe one more. Ole has got the signings he mostly wanted, except CM and DM and if he gets them next season he will have shaped the club the way we need to go. Can we win it this year, heart says yes, head says no. Am I enjoying us more, definitely yes, except the other night. :(
 
JebelSherif said:
It is interesting to read a post such as this. Five or six years ago (when I first started reading the site) anyone who even hinted that problems began whilst SAF was still the manager was swiftly shouted down, but not so much nowadays.

This is to be applauded. Sadly Sir Alex Ferguson built an empire, but also sowed the seeds of its decline (not least by cozying up to the Glazers whilst building his own personal fortune). It is right that people are now able to say this, without getting their heads chopped off...
Click to expand...

I couldn't give a monkeys whether people want to shout me down or not - I had a ST for the entirety of the 2005-2010 period and I can tell you that at the time, I was saying that we were doing nowhere near enough to keep the squad fresh and we were in danger of allowing the team to grow old together. Every time we were linked to a player, we seemed to lose out, and we would hear the 'no value in the market' line, which is still as ridiculous today as it was then.

Every time you bring up this period, someone says 'what about Nani, what about Anderson?'...OK great, we signed two players for £35m (which, sure, was decent money at the time), but the investment over a 5YR period was nowhere near enough to ready ourselves for losing Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs etc...all basically at the same time.
 
We're way better than we were some three seasons or so ago, winning the League this season should be a priority, Challenging for the UCL as well, we should at least win one of those, anything less should see the Manager Sacked regardless.

Looking at the Squad, it needs a good trimming down next summer, players we thought we're good 1st team Players are suddenly becoming deadwood.

The likes of Martial, Matic, Mata, Bailey, Jones, Telles... should be let go after this season, which would open up space for fresh and Hungry players either from Academy or new signings.
 
JebelSherif said:
It is interesting to read a post such as this. Five or six years ago (when I first started reading the site) anyone who even hinted that problems began whilst SAF was still the manager was swiftly shouted down, but not so much nowadays.

This is to be applauded. Sadly Sir Alex Ferguson built an empire, but also sowed the seeds of its decline (not least by cozying up to the Glazers whilst building his own personal fortune). It is right that people are now able to say this, without getting their heads chopped off...
Click to expand...

Rightly so. We have spent billion pounds since SAF retired, many clubs were built from scratch for fraction of that money, won big trophies and still have great squad. We squandered money buying poor players, hiring shit managers. You can't blame SAF for that, he isn't the one who made decisions or signed players. It's just lazy excuse and people just looking for reasons to have a go at him. We spend good money with Van Gaal, Jose, Ole. No one should say they weren't backed or money wasn't spent. We just hired shit coaches.

He left a team that won league easily, had a great backroom staff. Then comes Moyes who sacked every backroom staff to bring his shit ones.
 
roonster09 said:
Rightly so. We have spent billion pounds since SAF retired, many clubs were built from scratch for fraction of that money, won big trophies and still have great squad. We squandered money buying poor players, hiring shit managers. You can't blame SAF for that, he isn't the one who made decisions or signed players. It's just lazy excuse and people just looking for reasons to have a go at him. We spend good money with Van Gaal, Jose, Ole. No one should say they weren't backed or money wasn't spent. We just hired shit coaches.

He left a team that won league easily, had a great backroom staff. Then comes Moyes who sacked every backroom staff to bring his shit ones.
Click to expand...

I love Fergie and can’t take away from what he’s done for Manchester United, but the big money we’ve spent since his retirement has partly been to compensate for the lack of investment over the latter years of his tenure. As someone has already mentioned, it was the ‘no value in the market’ period defined by betting on youth players and the odd opportunistic signing like RvP. That lack of investment put us in a position where all our core players were coming to the end of their careers at once, and a bit long in the tooth to take on such a major new chapter in the clubs history.

The kicker to this of course was that when we did come to start spending money and investing in the squad, it was spent poorly by managers who didn’t quite understand who United are, or went over and above to put their own imprint on the club.
 
Zen86 said:
I love Fergie and can’t take away from what he’s done for Manchester United, but the big money we’ve spent since his retirement has partly been to compensate for the lack of investment over the latter years of his tenure. As someone has already mentioned, it was the ‘no value in the market’ period defined by betting on youth players and the odd opportunistic signing like RvP. That lack of investment put us in a position where all our core players were coming to the end of their careers at once, and a bit long in the tooth to take on such a major new chapter in the clubs history.

The kicker to this of course was that when we did come to start spending money and investing in the squad, it was spent poorly by managers who didn’t quite understand who United are, or went over and above to put their own imprint on the club.
Click to expand...

The post by roonster that you are replying to already answered you!

The problem wasn't the players that SAF left, they were the champions! The problem was the managers and their disastrous decisions, especially Moyes. For example, if we had a top manager in 2013 and he bought Kroos, Varane and Cavani, he would have won the PL again. And again. We are still trying to find a CM! We still don't know why we didn't get Kroos. Moyes is good for West Ham but he was a disaster for us.
 
frostbite said:
The post by roonster that you are replying to already answered you!

The problem wasn't the players that SAF left, they were the champions! The problem was the managers and their disastrous decisions, especially Moyes. For example, if we had a top manager in 2013 and he bought Kroos, Varane and Cavani, he would have won the PL again. And again. We are still trying to find a CM! We still don't know why we didn't get Kroos. Moyes is good for West Ham but he was a disaster for us.
Click to expand...

You obviously haven’t read my post.
 
We always score goals according to Ole so as long as we don’t concede many a trophy is not far away.
 
Demaw said:
We have to be patient this year and maybe one more. Ole has got the signings he mostly wanted, except CM and DM and if he gets them next season he will have shaped the club the way we need to go. Can we win it this year, heart says yes, head says no. Am I enjoying us more, definitely yes, except the other night. :(
Click to expand...
Feck sake.
 
Zen86 said:
I love Fergie and can’t take away from what he’s done for Manchester United, but the big money we’ve spent since his retirement has partly been to compensate for the lack of investment over the latter years of his tenure. As someone has already mentioned, it was the ‘no value in the market’ period defined by betting on youth players and the odd opportunistic signing like RvP. That lack of investment put us in a position where all our core players were coming to the end of their careers at once, and a bit long in the tooth to take on such a major new chapter in the clubs history.

The kicker to this of course was that when we did come to start spending money and investing in the squad, it was spent poorly by managers who didn’t quite understand who United are, or went over and above to put their own imprint on the club.
Click to expand...

SAF had a team that had great mix of experience and youth. We had players like Rio, Vida, Carrick, RVP who were playing very well at that time and also talented players like Rafael, Kagawa, De Gea, Jones, Evans in the mix.

Smalling, Jones were very highly rated when we signed them, same with the twins who played well when they got opportunities. Valencia also played very well under SAF. It was only midfield that was problem area.

That's the difference having a manager like SAF who gets most of the players and the managers who followed him who couldn't get the best out if squad.

Let's also not forget City didn't sign good players when they won the league and Mancini moaned about every week. That didn't stop them winning league when Mancini was sacked. Players who looked like done at top level (as in not at their peak)had very good seasons under Pep. We see every week what top manager do when it comes to squad management and getting more than sum.of it's parts. We used to have it, now others have that kind of managers.
 
Lentwood said:
That doesn't mean anything I am afraid. You earn trophies, they aren't handed out based on reputation or popularity..
Click to expand...
Yes they're handed out when a team is excellently managed. The 'this is Manchester United' was to do with our ambition and spending, one of which is enormous and so should be the other.
 
The most important thing is progress, and only the most negative person would say last season wasn't.
That last step to properly competing for the big prizes, or winning a cup is a huge step.

We could easily improve as a team, yet drop from 2nd this season.
 
roonster09 said:
SAF had a team that had great mix of experience and youth. We had players like Rio, Vida, Carrick, RVP who were playing very well at that time and also talented players like Rafael, Kagawa, De Gea, Jones, Evans in the mix.

Smalling, Jones were very highly rated when we signed them, same with the twins who played well when they got opportunities. Valencia also played very well under SAF. It was only midfield that was problem area.

That's the difference having a manager like SAF who gets most of the players and the managers who followed him who couldn't get the best out if squad.

Let's also not forget City didn't sign good players when they won the league and Mancini moaned about every week. That didn't stop them winning league when Mancini was sacked. Players who looked like done at top level (as in not at their peak)had very good seasons under Pep. We see every week what top manager do when it comes to squad management and getting more than sum.of it's parts. We used to have it, now others have that kind of managers.
Click to expand...

Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Evra were coming to the end of their careers, and we still depended heavily on Scholes and Giggs who retired. Rooney had also been fading at this point in my opinion. RvP was great in his first season and carried an otherwise lacklustre United team to the title, and was understandably irked by Fergie retiring having made the move to us for silverware.

Rafael, Kagawa, Jones, Evans were decent players, but not great. Rafael had his moments, but these were squad/utility players at best. Kagawa was a good player but he had stuttered at United and his move hadn’t worked out so far. Smalling and Jones were similarly not great players either. There was potential, but we know how that worked out for the pair of them.

When you say we had a great mix of experience and youth, we actually had a mix of formerly world class players coming to the tail end of their careers and youth players who hadn’t (and subsequently never did) make the step up, with a lot of average to decent players in between. It’s easy to just dismiss all of these things by virtue of us winning the league that year, but the squad had been fading for several years by that point. It was also Fergies team, and I personally don’t believe any other manager could have got as much as he did out of that squad. But again, we made some calamitous decisions after his retirement which made a tricky situation much worse.

It’s quite a bizarre statement to say that Mancini won the league without signing good players. I don’t even know where to start there.
 
roonster09 said:
Rightly so. We have spent billion pounds since SAF retired, many clubs were built from scratch for fraction of that money, won big trophies and still have great squad. We squandered money buying poor players, hiring shit managers. You can't blame SAF for that, he isn't the one who made decisions or signed players. It's just lazy excuse and people just looking for reasons to have a go at him. We spend good money with Van Gaal, Jose, Ole. No one should say they weren't backed or money wasn't spent. We just hired shit coaches.

He left a team that won league easily, had a great backroom staff. Then comes Moyes who sacked every backroom staff to bring his shit ones.
Click to expand...

But SAF practicly hand-picked David Moyes, so you can blame him for that....

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make - it was the fact that Sir Alex built up an amazing empire, but then (in my opinion) two things went wrong - the Glazers (and who was responsible for that?) plus, Manchester United and Sir Alex became as one.... he became the club. Consequently once he retired things were bound to go wrong.

Strangely (a bit like how Russel T. Davies has come back to rescue Doctor Who) recent events at Old Trafford have the mark of Sir Alex doing stuff behind the scenes to rescue them too - e.g. the signing of Christiano Ronaldo.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Feck sake.
Click to expand...
Ole religious fanatics are gonna always be this year and maybe another one. Even if he spends another 400m in transfers with the squad having the highest wage bill in the world.

The list of excuses while Ole is never gonna challenge for a big trophy (and probably not win a smaller one) is never gonna end.
 
Zen86 said:
Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Evra were coming to the end of their careers, and we still depended heavily on Scholes and Giggs who retired. Rooney had also been fading at this point in my opinion. RvP was great in his first season and carried an otherwise lacklustre United team to the title, and was understandably irked by Fergie retiring having made the move to us for silverware.

Rafael, Kagawa, Jones, Evans were decent players, but not great. Rafael had his moments, but these were squad/utility players at best. Kagawa was a good player but he had stuttered at United and his move hadn’t worked out so far. Smalling and Jones were similarly not great players either. There was potential, but we know how that worked out for the pair of them.

When you say we had a great mix of experience and youth, we actually had a mix of formerly world class players coming to the tail end of their careers and youth players who hadn’t (and subsequently never did) make the step up, with a lot of average to decent players in between. It’s easy to just dismiss all of these things by virtue of us winning the league that year, but the squad had been fading for several years by that point. It was also Fergies team, and I personally don’t believe any other manager could have got as much as he did out of that squad. But again, we made some calamitous decisions after his retirement which made a tricky situation much worse.

It’s quite a bizarre statement to say that Mancini won the league without signing good players. I don’t even know where to start there.
Click to expand...

I didn't say Mancini won league without investment, I said City didn't invest when they won the league, Mancini moaned about it every week. Pellegrini won league without missing the beat.

Senior players were close to retirement, that's why we had youngsters who were signed and promoted. We had good mix of youth and experience.

The managers who followed him fecked it up and then we invested shit loads of money to sign new squad multiple times.
 
JebelSherif said:
But SAF practicly hand-picked David Moyes, so you can blame him for that....

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make - it was the fact that Sir Alex built up an amazing empire, but then (in my opinion) two things went wrong - the Glazers (and who was responsible for that?) plus, Manchester United and Sir Alex became as one.... he became the club. Consequently once he retired things were bound to go wrong.

Strangely (a bit like how Russel T. Davies has come back to rescue Doctor Who) recent events at Old Trafford have the mark of Sir Alex doing stuff behind the scenes to rescue them too - e.g. the signing of Christiano Ronaldo.
Click to expand...

Yeah next what, let's blame Ferguson's mother for giving birth to SAF which led to him picking Moyes.
 
Demaw said:
We have to be patient this year and maybe one more. Ole has got the signings he mostly wanted, except CM and DM and if he gets them next season he will have shaped the club the way we need to go. Can we win it this year, heart says yes, head says no. Am I enjoying us more, definitely yes, except the other night. :(
Click to expand...

A top class manager (which is what Solskjaer is supposed to be given he's managing Manchester United) shouldn't need every signing he wants before he can win trophies. If he does, he isn't a top class manager and shouldn't be here..

Because you never have all the players you want. City and Chelsea have spent fortunes and still don't have all the players they want. But nobody is saying it may take them two more years, they're expected to win things now.

So no, we don't have to be patient for two more years. If Solskjaer isn't at least seriously competing for the PL or CL this season, it's on him. He has the players to do it as is.
 
roonster09 said:
I didn't say Mancini won league without investment, I said City didn't invest when they won the league, Mancini moaned about it every week. Pellegrini won league without missing the beat.

Senior players were close to retirement, that's why we had youngsters who were signed and promoted. We had good mix of youth and experience.

The managers who followed him fecked it up and then we invested shit loads of money to sign new squad multiple times.
Click to expand...

I don’t really know what you’re trying to get at here. City had a much stronger squad than us and had invested heavily during that period. They were very much in the ascension when Fergie retired, whereas we were quite notably trending in the opposite direction. The team that won the league in Fergie’s final season were punching above their weight and carried by RvP.
 
Zen86 said:
I don’t really know what you’re trying to get at here. City had a much stronger squad than us and had invested heavily during that period. They were very much in the ascension when Fergie retired, whereas we were quite notably trending in the opposite direction. The team that won the league in Fergie’s final season were punching above their weight and carried by RvP.
Click to expand...

If SAF continued and City hired Moyes, narrative would have been different. We invested lot of money too except that Ronaldo summer.

Also check the transfers after they won the league, Sinclair Rodwell Garcia and some shit players. Following season they signed Fernandinho and other average players. Following season Mangala, Bony.

Big difference was not investment, the coaches they hired and what we hired.
 
Ronaldo and Cavani in the squad. Varane, Pogba, and Fernandes in their prime. And yet there's no chance we'll win a trophy. What a tragic waste of talent.
 
roonster09 said:
If SAF continued and City hired Moyes, narrative would have been different. We invested lot of money too except that Ronaldo summer.

Also check the transfers after they won the league, Sinclair Rodwell Garcia and some shit players. Following season they signed Fernandinho and other average players. Following season Mangala, Bony.

Big difference was not investment, the coaches they hired and what we hired.
Click to expand...

We invested significantly less than City in the years before his retirement and were left with an outdated club structure which lacked a long-term vision or direction. Poor managerial appointments and a scattergun transfer policy compounded this and landed us in the hole we were in at the end of Mourinho’s reign.

Saying “because coaches” is overly simplifying it.
 
To paraphrase Alan Hansen: "You can't win anything with kids old men"....
 
Zen86 said:
We invested significantly less than City in the years before his retirement and were left with an outdated club structure which lacked a long-term vision or direction. Poor managerial appointments and a scattergun transfer policy compounded this and landed us in the hole we were in at the end of Mourinho’s reign.

Saying “because coaches” is overly simplifying it.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse, City's am starting point was relegation zone and we were CL winners. It's logical who would invest less in that time compared to AbuDhabi without FFP. We still invested money and continued to do so since SAF retirement. He left a league winning team.

Shit coaches is not over simplifying it. We see it every season but weird people downplay how big role coach plays.
 
roonster09 said:
Ofcourse, City's am starting point was relegation zone and we were CL winners. It's logical who would invest less in that time compared to AbuDhabi without FFP. We still invested money and continued to do so since SAF retirement. He left a league winning team.

Shit coaches is not over simplifying it. We see it every season but weird people downplay how big role coach plays.
Click to expand...

No they don’t.

And you’re starting to talk nonsense now. It’s quite clear you’ll just sit there repeating those lines “league winning team” and “we still spent money” and ignore the rest, so I’m out.
 
Zen86 said:
No they don’t.

And you’re starting to talk nonsense now. It’s quite clear you’ll just sit there repeating those lines “league winning team” and “we still spent money” and ignore the rest, so I’m out.
Click to expand...

Pile of shit, mental gymnastics as usual.
 
Ever since that prick JM, i believe that great performances week in week out will produce earned results on a long run, sure you can have bad day here and there and still win. What i find funny is how suddenly not winning trophies became here not important, until Ole came, it was always that guy isnt a winner, that guy didnt win shit in his life etc.
 
Well we're no cup team under Ole as a game like today will never be far away, and where nowhere near the standard needed for consistency for a league title.

League cup might have been an option but we've fecked that off and turned our noses up at it. I'd be genuinely shocked to see us win anything this season under the current regime.
 
So he plays a B team in the League Cup to be ready for the league and then this happens...
 
Zen86 said:
It’s actually more that you’re a blinkered idiot who was probably a bit too young to remember that time. Toodles.
Click to expand...

"Ask your mom how young I was when I did her is one of the obvious come back" but yeah piss off. You probably were in diapers when city take over happened, just compared the numbers without any context.

Shame for the weird "didn't invest" reason City are not struggling when they didn't invest or invested on shit players after their first league title. But then "blinkered idiot with mental gymnastics", so can't expect any sense.
 
SAF picked Moyes after trying for other managers. So yes, he hand picked him but he had to hand pick somebody. Not his fault Moyes ignored all the advice and floundered around and get rid of all the trusted assistants.

We will never win anything of note with Ole as a manager.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.