5 bad apples at Manchester United, 3 of them we are all in agreement with

Neither Shaw nor Maguire are ‘salvageable’.

This will be Shaw’s 5th United manager, at some point under each of the previous 4 he’s underperformed & sulked his way around. We know exactly what will happen under EtH, he’ll look ok then terrible & vice versa. He’s also not averse to an interview.

As for Maguire, of the 5 players listed he’s literally done the least for the club in terms of on the pitch performances. Had either of the 3 bad apples you say we all agree on played anywhere near as bad for as long as he has then they’d be a riot on the caf with pitchforks at the ready.

Labelling players bad apples simply cause you don’t like them is lunacy, we’ve little idea what influences players have in the dressing room & the squad as a whole have looked as if they can’t be bothered since October. It’s funny you label the 3 you do as stinking out the place for far too long when Shaws form was being questioned from the moment he signed & Maguire has been playing against us since Project Restart. This fanbase is full of fans that irrationally don’t like players but defend others. All 5 can feck off.
 
Rashford might be worth keeping because it's clear that he has no confidence at all and has lost passion in football. If the manager can lit up the fire back he is a good option. The rest are just not good enough.
 
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Group dynamics can be a tough thing to diagnose. Being on the outside looking at these guys can be tough to figure who has which kind of problem.

Player A might be a good player but realizes that most of the rest aren’t really trying so any effort he expends will be wasted. Over time it becomes a way of life, a habit. Why sprint when everyone else is walking or jogging?

In team sports it can be hard to measure individual performance. Some might lack the skills to elevate their game. Some might need some assistance and training that they aren’t getting.

Some just need some better effort around them. It’s hard to shine when you are relying on an accurate pass that never comes.

I would expect that’s exactly what you get from RR. A guy who moves them around, tries different combinations and situations to measure what the actual problem is with each one.

Who is coachable, who wants to succeed but can’t in the present circumstances? Who will fit this new style of play and who would do better in a different situation?

Mostly you want to identify the ones creating a negative culture and get them out first, at any cost. The ones undermining the leadership. Creating culture change is much easier when you get the problems out of there.
 
I have no idea where this "bad apples" narrative comes from - like there are players at the club who are so toxic that they are responsible for all of the clubs woes.

The bad apples are sat in a boardroom in the US, counting their money. The rot has spread from them, through Woodward, to every level of the club. The problems in the dressing room represent the apples visible at the top of the barrel finally succumbing. They are the symptoms of the disease, not the cause.
 
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ElCuddlos said:
I have no idea where this "bad apples" narrative comes from - like there are players at the club who are so toxic that they are responsible for all of the clubs woes.

The bad apples are sat in a boardroom in the US, counting their money. The rot has spread from them, through Woodward, to every level of the club. The problems in the dressing room represent the apples visible at the top of the barrel finally succumbing. They are the symptoms of the disease, not the cause.
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You could be absolutely right. Like I said it’s tough to judge from the outside. If there were players who were trying to throw the manager under the bus and making comments about outlasting the manager, I might look at those as being a problem for future leadership.
 
ElCuddlos said:
I have no idea where this "bad apples" narrative comes from - like there are players at the club who are so toxic that they are responsible for all of the clubs woes.

The bad apples are sat in a boardroom in the US, counting their money. The rot has spread from them, through Woodward, to every level of the club. The problems in the dressing room represent the apples visible at the top of the barrel finally succumbing. They are the symptoms of the disease, not the cause.
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You've got to look at the demographic that makes up the average football fan. The vast majority of football fans are poorly educated, aren't particularly bright and spend most of their lives doing non-skilled or non-talent based jobs.

For them, they can only look at the world through lens that graft and attitude is all that matters because for the lives they live that's probably true. So for them, the only reason they can relate to the club being so poor is that everyone's lazy & toxic.
 
Always find it sad to find academy players being bad apples.

O’Shea, Fletcher, Brown etc never had a bad word said about them. Young players today are far too entitled.
 
The Oracle said:
We know Maguire's opinion of himself because he has told us all in his most recent interview!

Shaw does have too much to say, and it was insightful when he said that he knew he would outlast Mourinho at United. Just look at what was going on in the press before Ten Hag was announced, it was claimed Shaw was preferring a reunion with Pochettino because they used to share car journeys to training.

As for Lingard, Rashford, and Pogba, it is my opinion that they don't put effort in, or show any fight, and that translates as them thinking they are above doing that, and leaving it to everyone else on the pitch to do.
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Gave me bad vibes, that. Mourinho was an ass but that was slight peek into the mentality of some of our players.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Utter bollocks.
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Just because a player is english and “home grown” doesn’t mean they should be given an infinite free pass and they “love the club more” or whatever red tinted bullocks.
 
Huh? Maguire always puts a fight in? Did you see the last Liverpool game? He didn't even bother to try and block the shots for the goals.
 
The Oracle said:
We are yet to see a quality defensive midfielder play in front of Maguire in a United shirt.

Maguire's weakness is his pace, which can be addressed with developing a better positional sense and reading of the game. There is ability there, we see it when he's in an England shirt.

Rashford's weakness is his attitude. Rashford is never going to change his attitude, his ego is too big for him to be able to do that.
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The notion that Maguire, at his age, can improve his positional sense and reading of the game but Rashford will never be able to change his attitude is quite frankly laughable.
 
I don’t think Maguires one of the bad apples… nothing wrong with his attitude. Just that he’s not good enough. The bad apples are people like pogba, lingard, the ones with bad attitude.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
The only shirt Maguire and Shaw fight for is the England shirt.

They might improve next season but it's only because there's an international tournament coming.
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I find it amazing when people say Shaw is a fighter. He is literally the laziest player in the squad, I have never seen lazier fullback when it comes to overlapping, and getting yellow card every game because he can't be bothered to run back in defence.
 
There’s a difference between being a bad apple and just being shit. You can’t help being shit.
 
I don’t think Maguire is a bad apple.

He’s just turned very shit and his PR is terrible

Maguire always makes himself available and wants to play. Shaw on the other hand, there’s been murmurs for years about what he does when the going gets tough.

I wouldn’t put Shaw and Maguire on the same wave
 
I want us to sign high football IQ players. Bruno Guimaraes at Newcastle was one I was hoping we'd sign. Camavinga and Tchouameni seem to have it too but again we're not likely to sign the right players.

We continue to sign and extend contracts of bums. Players with no brains, Jose called it when he said he cannot think for Luke Shaw or control him like a PlayStation game.

The club don't understand this and keep rewarding the failures. If Rangnik is discarded because he's telling the truth then you know its not going to get better quick enough to catch other teams up.

How would we even catch Spurs or Arsenal up if they're already at realisation and are acting on it with their signings. Nevermind City or Liverpool who are now playing in autopilot.
 
The Oracle said:
Then goes on to undermine Rangnick in the same interview:
"I get along very well with [Deschamps], he gave me a role that I know, but at Manchester United do I really have a role? I ask the question but I don't have an answer."
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To be fair I think here he refers to his united career in general. He has never had a defined role for us. He has been a winger, a deep cm an 8 and a 10.
 
The Oracle said:
We are yet to see a quality defensive midfielder play in front of Maguire in a United shirt.

Maguire's weakness is his pace, which can be addressed with developing a better positional sense and reading of the game. There is ability there, we see it when he's in an England shirt.

Rashford's weakness is his attitude. Rashford is never going to change his attitude, his ego is too big for him to be able to do that.
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I remember a year or two the defence of our midfielders was "put a quality defender with Maguire and the midfield will have more confidence with a solid defence behind them"....now its the other way round.

I do agree that a part of the problem with Maguire has been the lack of help and how often our defence is exposed by midfielders breaking through so easily. Something that has happened a lot was evident against Liverpool with there first goal, Maguire exposed, split second decision do you try and win the ball from the breakign midfielder or retreat....or get caught in no mans land. No easy answer as he is in trouble (though he seems to always end up like a startled cat in th eheadlights bypassed)

Maguire is a decent defender, we have seen it at other clubs and for England....but he was never an £80m defender and he was never an excellent centre back, the signing was a poor one when there were so many other options that summer as targets and none would have cost more.

He is also most certainly not captain material and I found it rally concernign his judgement of his own form recently
 
I never understand why Shaw is always painted negatively by us fans
 
What is this based off of? Sounds like its bollocks pulled out of thin air
 
At some stage it will sink in for people that we need homegrown players and can’t just fill our squad with foreign players.
 
Red00012 said:
I never understand why Shaw is always painted negatively by us fans
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Luke Shaw isn’t a very exciting name so people want him gone. Sod this bird in our hand the two in the bush must be better.

Once people make their mind up on a player they’ll look for any reason to support their opinion, even if the reason isn’t actually there.
 
acnumber9 said:
At some stage it will sink in for people that we need homegrown players and can’t just fill our squad with foreign players.
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Arsenal Invincibles disagree! 17 of our 38 man first team squad currently are British by the way and at least eight still will be.

Either way, except youth players, which British players should we target...Rice/Bellingham/Kane blow our transfer budget pretty much if at all obtainable, Calvin Phillips is £50m+ and the majority of quality young English players are already at big clubs?

Who is there? Guehi, Tyrick Mitchell, Ollie Watkins, Godfrey, WArd-Prowse, Calvert-Lewin, John McGinn, Aaron Hickey, David Brooks, Maddison, Eze, Max Aarons....some good players, but none really jump out especially consdering the costs.

May have missed some but the only two I consider viable godo signings this summer are Lamptey and the one I would like to sign is Livaramento
 
Bwuk said:
Always find it sad to find academy players being bad apples.

O’Shea, Fletcher, Brown etc never had a bad word said about them. Young players today are far too entitled.
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What apart from “Fergies son”, “only good enough for the championship” etc?
 
jesperjaap said:
Arsenal Invincibles disagree! 17 of our 38 man first team squad currently are British by the way and at least eight still will be.

Either way, except youth players, which British players should we target...Rice/Bellingham/Kane blow our transfer budget pretty much if at all obtainable, Calvin Phillips is £50m+ and the majority of quality young English players are already at big clubs?

Who is there? Guehi, Tyrick Mitchell, Ollie Watkins, Godfrey, WArd-Prowse, Calvert-Lewin, John McGinn, Aaron Hickey, David Brooks, Maddison, Eze, Max Aarons....some good players, but none really jump out especially consdering the costs.

May have missed some but the only two I consider viable godo signings this summer are Lamptey and the one I would like to sign is Livaramento
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They could disagree all they like. Doesn’t change the rules. There are people here who would gladly fill the squad with imports.
 
Loyalty and ‘bad apples’ go both ways you know. Rashford has done wonders for the city of Manchester and he’s a bad apple now because he’s lost form and confidence. Shaw had one of the best seasons of his life last year and as soon as he stops playing so well he’s a ‘bad apple’. You can separate bad form from the character of people, you seem to muddle the two together. Just because you’re not playing well doesn’t mean you are a bad apple.

Greenwood didn’t lack character on the pitch but was a scumbag. Greenwood is the one true bad apple in the United squad and you have to wonder how the news affected other players in the squad.

As for Lingard, the club has treated him dreadfully. He wanted to leave and wasn’t in the plans and the club just kept him for a year and barely used him at all. That’s as much or more on the club than Lingard.
 
Tavern in the town said:
One of the weirdest things about fans of any sport in general is the tendency to blame the good players rather than the shit ones. Imagine singling out these players who’ve all shown they can actually play quite well at various points for either club or country, when you’ve got blokes like McTominay and Wan-Bissaka stealing a living.
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Its not weird at all. Expectations are higher for people who are better at something than someone who is less gifted. 6/10 player putting in 5/10 performances week in week out is going to get a lot less flak than the guy who is capable of putting 9/10 performances in but only bothers to do that 2 games in 10. Pogba is the classic example of a player who can be sublime but just doesn't seem to care enough to consistently perform. A player who is happy to chuck in the occasional world class performance and then go missing as soon as the going gets tough.

The other very simple reason is that those players are usually on mind numbing salaries.

A third reason is that those players generally don't get dropped because managers are always hopeful that today will be a good day for them and they will win the game for the team. Watching a quality player stroll around the pitch and give 20% effort tends to wind people up after a while.

Its not weird at all.
 
We only accumulated these players because the leadership of this club is tolerating it. If we were focused on being the best in the business in everything field related, I'm talking about recruitment of players, training and on field success, we wouldn't be in the position we are today. The problem is that the leadership of this club only cares about the financial numbers we put out at the end of every year.
 
The Oracle said:
Lingard
Rashford
Pogba
Shaw
Maguire

Out of the 5 bad apples above, it is our academy products that need to be churned out of the club immediately... for good.
If they haven’t already, then pack your bags Lingard, Rashford, and Pogba

Enough is enough.

There is no hiding place for those 3 players anymore. It is those 3 players who have been stinking out the place for far too long, and they have been taking us fans for mugs.
They think that because they are products of our academy, they are above everyone else in the dressing room. No heart, no desire, no fight on the pitch, no effort, sauntering around, poor body language, no tracking back, blind alleys, don’t care about the fans, undermining the manager, don’t want to be at the club, GET OUT!

The two salvageable apples:
Shaw and Maguire

Shaw is a good left-back, we know he puts the effort in, and fights for the shirt. The problem with Shaw is that he has too much to say, and that can often undermine the manager. He can salvage his United career by keeping his mouth shut, and letting his performances on the pitch do the talking for him.

Maguire is a good defender, who has been playing horribly in a United shirt. When he plays in an England shirt, he always has really good quality defensive midfielders playing in front of him – something which he doesn’t have at Manchester United.
We know in the long term that his pace will always be a weakness of his, so he must develop his positional sense and with that a better reading of the game.
Just as Luke Shaw does, Harry always puts effort in and fights for the shirt.

Ten Hag must address Harry’s delusions of grandeur, as he isn’t as good a defender as he thinks he is. A period out of the team would go a long way in not only addressing Harry’s form when required, but would also give him a reality check as well.
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Yes they clearly are + Martial
 
golden_blunder said:
What apart from “Fergies son”, “only good enough for the championship” etc?
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That was from dafties in our fanbase. I meant more you never heard a word about them having a bad attitude, or being unprofessional.
 
They all should leave asap, following Pobga.
How is Shaw salvageable? One season good, then awol. No thanks.
 
Bwuk said:
That was from dafties in our fanbase. I meant more you never heard a word about them having a bad attitude, or being unprofessional.
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Get you. That’s correct. But, bare in mind as young players they came into the squad with big characters, lots of captain options and fantastic trainers. Plus fergie wouldn’t take any crap.
Now? No characters, lazy feckers. There’s no comparison really
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
He'll be 30 next year. He better be a fast learner.
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Can you imagine us having possession in virtually any other teams half and somehow people trying to convince you we're safe while maguire is one of the 2 people in charge of nullifying any opp striker so high up the pitch
 
I personally think an in form Shaw is an outstanding player. He’s been motm many times over the years. I certainly wouldn’t call him a bad apple. Whilst Rashford has lost all confidence and form to call him a bad apple seems harsh. I hope he rediscovers his form but happy to sell him to To Barca for a big fee.
 
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