@Chesterlestreet what day suits you? I would prefer Tuesday or Wednesday myself
40s Retro Football Fantasy Draft | Finished
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Wednesday looks good, mate.
Wednesday it is
23 Oct - Friday
24 Oct - Saturday
25 Oct - Sunday
26 Oct - Monday
27 Oct - Tuesday
28 Oct - Wednesday
harms vs Chesterlestreet
29 Oct - Thursday
joga vs Invictus
Very good - looking forward to it.
Agree on the Kohler shout and the shift to zonal marking that has created increasingly all-rounded centre-halves.
The one thing missing from this debate is what the defenders in question are facing. Many people's all-time XIs would feature Baresi and Beckenbauer in the centre of defence yet such a combination would struggle with a powerhouse aerial monster like Enrico Nordahl or John Charles. But against a different type of striker, they could well be the best men for the job.
Would you guys rate Schwarzenbeck better than Costacurta?
When would you like to play @Aldo? Next week preferably.
Ft
Sure, what day?
Checked the PES stats
Costacurta is ridiculously overrated there, 95 for defending while Schwarzenbeck has 89Schwarzenbeck for me though, I just like him better
@Aldo can you threadmark the final teams or put them in the OP please?
Poor @Invictus, first he is up against Balu, now Joga... It's hard to imagine a more difficult introduction to the draft
Done.
Yep.
OK, we'll let NM choose then.
Checked the PES stats
Schwarzenbeck for me though, I just like him better
Probably because that Milan defensive unit was one of the best. Adds extra brownie points I suppose. Don't think Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck ever had a pair of consistent fullbacks. Breitner, Hansen, Andersson it was always changing, so tends to underrated.
I think it's more of sum of parts not being more than the total. Yeah, Figueroa could do the same job, but that's restricting Figueroa's game a lot. Simple case of too many Generals and not enough soldiers. If you want the best of both, they are better off paired with someone else than with each other.
Then again Schwarzenbeck undoubtedly (and that isn't even debatable, in my opinion) gets a point or two for being Beckenbauer's lieutenant.
It's some kind of circle with guys like that:
A: He's overrated 'cause he was X's sidekick.
B: Nah, he's actually underrated, 'cause people only think he was good 'cause he was X's sidekick, but that ain't true.
And so forth.
Fact is both those players are excellent examples of extremely reliable, top class defenders, the sort you can win anything with - and arguably also the sort you don't win anything without.
Going back to the "stopper" question, i.e. does anyone really stand out as being an absolute GOAT among the centre halves who weren't ball players or super passers or demigods in general? It's a very interesting question - even Kohler, who was mentioned as a possible candidate, was something beyond a "pure" stopper in the sense that what - in reality - makes him stand out to the degree he does was his almost preternatural knack for marking and shadowing attackers. Most top class stoppers are GOOD at marking, that goes with the territory, but Kohler was far beyond good.
Then again, being a phenomenal marker isn't something you only see in central defenders. Some of the best markers in history were primarily fullbacks - or defensive midfielders. So it isn't an exclusive stopper trait by any stretch.
Being excellent in the air, excellent in the tackle, strong, fast (in terms of reacting to danger, not necessarily in terms of pace as such), calm (not being error prone or prone to panic under stress) - these I would say are the key areas for a classic stopper. Does anyone excel at this to the extent that he can be labeled a GOAT?
Good post.
I don't agree with the sidekick argument. You just can't perform at that level being less than stellar. And I would argue it takes especially more to cover for Beckenbauer and Baresi giving them complete freedom than you do for any other ball playing CB.
As for your second statement... Kohler, Forester, Desailly, Bergomi, Gentile, Burgnich all qualify when playing CB to be top class GOAT stoppers. Nesta, Desailly and Co take it to a more complete level greying out the difference, but it's more of a style of strategy than individual talents. As Balu mentions two complete CBs are now preferred over some Player/Stopper combo. More versatile that way.
Burgnich would be the prime candidate for that imo, as too would Bergomi (tbf he is in the class of Kohler), Gentile and Förster. Santamaria is widely regarded as being amongst the best when talking about pure stoppers as well.
Hmm surely some of the classic British stoppers deserve to be mentioned here. Billy Wright and Jack Charlton perhaps? Ok, not GOAT level but very good stoppers nonetheless. John Charles was equally brilliant as a CB and as a striker, but he is too talented to be labelled as a pure stopper unfortunately.
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If you are taking British...Billy McNeill, Tony Adams and Neil Franklin deserve a shout here too. Tbh, I've seen/read very less of John Charles as a CB.
Probably belongs in the other category, I'd say, alongside Moore (in fact, it's not uncommon to see him as something a precursor of Moore) - i.e. he went beyond being a stopper, so to speak, was smoother, better on the ball, etc.
Billy Wright would be very near the top of my list, though. If you look at his own description of his (own) game, it's close to the very definition of the "pure" stopper: What I do is stop the attacker, take the ball from him - and then give it to somebody else. In other words, I do my job - then let the other guy do his.
A modern shout might be Cannavaro. And then, right away, we see what the "problem" is, or might be: I don't think I've ever come across anyone neutral (that is, in terms of club affiliation) who thinks his Ballon is deserved. And part of that is - as an underlying factor - that he simply was too limited a player to "deserve" it. There are other arguments too, by all means, but it has at least something to do with this.
I agree with you that they both wouldn't be classed as stoppers, but that's why I don't think its a useful split as ultimately it often just comes down to whether the defender is technical or good on the ball as opposed to anything to do with their actual ability to defend.
To keep with the Nesta example, he was fantastic in the air, at marking, at tackling and knew when to put his foot in. In that sense the reason he isn't classed classed as a stopper is because he also happened to be an elegant footballer in addition to those defensive qualities - which I don't see as relevant to anything really. Nesta/Ferdinand would still be a better partnership than Nesta/Vidic in terms of defending and keeping a clean sheet, despite them both being capable of playing a bit with the ball on the ground.
The biggest difference between the two groups tends to just be the level of ball playing skills, which I don't think is relevant defensively - it's just an additional benefit that some very good defenders have.
Obviously there are some extreme examples at either end of the spectrum so the above doesn't always apply - proper Libero's for instance are always in a category of their own. But in general I don't think the splits are that useful and the terms can sometimes be harmful when it comes to understanding a player.
I don't agree, although there is a slight possibility that I could agree with the sum of their parts comment, purely in terms of Figueroa ceding to Beckenbauer in possession and thereby getting on the ball less. That's a very narrow concession though and not what I think you meant, it also doesn't effect anything defensively.
Figueroa is better defensively than Schwarzenbeck (not a criticism), the stuff he does on the ball is just an extra benefit. In the last draft Antohan had a partnership of Scirea/Figueroa and it doesn't get much better than that. It's flawless defensively - them both being good ball players is irrelevant there IMO.
The merit of his Ballon was more about the value placed on the World Cup rather than his role as a combative centre-half. His level of performance was clearly a cut above anyone else in Germany and has been unmatched in either of the tournaments since. The controversy was more about how much weight should be placed on his patchy form at Real in the autumn. There was a problem in that neither of the other contenders - Ronaldinho and Henry - were able to maintain their brilliant 2005/06 form into the World Cup and beyond (both effectively underwhelmed from the Champions League final onwards). I was happy that he got recognised for his impeccable performances in winning the World Cup.
Ultimately those qualities in themselves are probably not enough to elevate somebody into the stratosphere alongside the greatest of all time. I'd say there are two reasons the greatest central defenders (Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa) stand out. First is that weren't just good defenders, they also added so much more on the ball. They were often their team's best playmakers as well as being their top defenders. Second, is their immense intelligence in reading the game, organising and dictating play. It's similar to the comparison between the greatest no 10s and the greatest 9s. Inevitably the 10s win out because their creativity and vision generally sets them apart and is what makes them harder to shut out of a game. That greater value we place on mental and technical based qualities rather than generally physical ones is largely why stoppers don't get the same kudos as the sweeper or libero.
Yeah. That's what strikes me about the PES stats and the Xtratime stuff - the rankings are all incredibly arbitrary. It's a small community and when one person has a hard-on for player X, they jump miles ahead of where they should be. In fairness they often do a lot of 'research' but sometimes it's a bit feeble - e.g. Scotland's greatest ever keeper happens to be the custodian for Celtic's EC win in 1967 - even though he never made his international debut till he was 36 and no Scot would put him in their national all-time XI.Checked the PES stats
Schwarzenbeck for me though, I just like him better
@Aldo Tuesday? all days are equally bad for me.
Yes, that would be the "other reasons" I mentioned above. But do we think this would've been a recognized issue if the tables were turned? If 'Dinho or Henry had shown inconsistent form over the (club) year, but had stood out as the best player at the WC, outshining the competition - and winning it (that's the key part)?
I doubt it very much myself. People wouldn't have questioned that decision nearly as much as they questioned (and still question) Cannavaro getting the award.
Sunday could be an option. Monday at a push. Thursday would be okay. Any of those suit?
Cool @NM
Let's do Sunday then.
23 Oct - Friday
24 Oct - Saturday
25 Oct - Sunday
Gio/Theon vs Tuppet
26 Oct - Monday
27 Oct - Tuesday
28 Oct - Wednesday
harms vs Chesterlestreet
29 Oct - Thursday
joga vs Invictus
24 Oct - Saturday
25 Oct - Sunday
Gio/Theon vs Tuppet
26 Oct - Monday
27 Oct - Tuesday
28 Oct - Wednesday
harms vs Chesterlestreet
29 Oct - Thursday
joga vs Invictus
Not really related, but was reading this from Summerbee about Best. Thought it would fit in here somewhat. Long read, but found it a good one.
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Fifty years ago this autumn, a bored and lonely young footballer walked out of his hotel in central Manchester looking for company. Ten minutes later he walked into a coffee shop and found it.
‘It was a day off and I thought I would have a walk out,’ recalled Mike Summerbee this week.
‘I went into Kardomah, a coffee shop, on St Ann’s Square. There was a girl at one table, a blonde, and a guy on his own at another. The guy was George Best.
‘I had seen him on the TV and in the papers, a Manchester United superstar. But he didn’t know me from Adam. I was a nobody. But it turns out he had just come back from Ireland and was homesick too, alone and missing his family. I was 22 and he was 19. I caught his eye and went over and that was it. That was how it started.’
Ten years ago this autumn, George Best died. He was 59. The world of football lost one of its most captivating stars and Summerbee, the former Manchester City forward, lost his best friend.
‘It seems like yesterday in some ways,’ said Summerbee.
‘I still think of him always and often. How could I not? I pass the places we went and bump into the people we knew.
‘He left such an imprint on life in Manchester. My wife Tina always said that you could never imagine George being an old man and it turns out she was right.
‘I would love to have seen him play football today. Stone me, on these perfect pitches. Can you imagine? When you think of the conditions George played under; kicking, tackling from behind, heavy pitches, a case ball. George went through all that and gave it all back.
‘In a derby game once we man-marked him and George scored after 60 seconds. I turned to (City manager) Malcolm Allison and said, “Do we have a plan B then?”’
As the red and blue of Manchester prepare to come together at Old Trafford for the 170th derby, an examination of Best and Summerbee’s friendship is like looking through a window into a different world.
The back of Summerbee’s autobiography carries a photograph of the two footballers on holiday together in Majorca in the summer of 1967. Ladies are also present.
‘Neither of us could swim,’ smiled Summerbee.
‘We just used to walk deep enough into the water so it looked as though we could.’
Tales of the duo’s nocturnal journeys around Manchester are well known.
It is, however, the small details of the friendship that tell of startling normality foreign to today’s game. These details colour the story. Less than a year after they met, for example, Best drove them to Wembley — picking up a speeding ticket on the way — and stood in the crowd at the 1966 World Cup final. Once, when he was suspended, Summerbee took Best’s father Dickie to Anfield to watch United play Liverpool from the Kop.
Every other Friday, meanwhile, they would stand on the terraces together and watch Stockport County play.
‘We would stand behind the goal and leave 10 minutes before the end,’ Summerbee said. ‘We would sign a couple of autographs but that would be it. No bother.’
Saturdays would be different, of course. A friendship that grew quickly and cared little for the fact they played on opposing sides of Manchester’s football divide had at its geographical heart the restaurants, bars and clubs of the city. Even then, though, a night out often wouldn’t commence until Best and Summerbee had popped into Arturo’s, a restaurant where they knew their respective managers — Joe Mercer and Sir Matt Busby — would be dining together with their wives.
‘The two managers lived on the same street and they were close,’ recalled Summerbee. ‘So we would go to where they ate and let them see us there, having a meal and drinking Coke. The perfect professionals!
‘The wives would ask if we were being looked after at our digs and then I would say, “Night boss, night boss” — because I called Sir Matt “boss” too — and as soon as we were out the door we were like “Yes!” and off we’d go into the night.’
Best and Summerbee played against each other on many occasions during a time when United and City briefly stood toe-to-toe at the peak of the English game. Only once did they turn out for the same team.
‘It was a charity match at Oldham,’ said Summerbee. ‘We had been to a wedding reception in town in the morning and had a few drinks.
‘The gate was supposed to be 2,000 and then word spread that George was playing. There were 15,000 there.
‘Anyway, he passed to me once all afternoon. But ours wasn’t a football friendship. It was hardly discussed.
‘Red and blue certainly never came into it, but then football wasn’t like that then. The relationship wasn’t tribal.
‘The Munich disaster and what happened there had played its part in that. Some people went to both City and United games.
‘For George and I, it only ever came into consideration when, before a derby game, I would just go over and tell him not to take the p*** out of me. I knew that if I went anywhere near him the ball would be straight through my legs.’
Younger supporters of Manchester football will never forget the final day of the 2011-12 season and the thrilling denouement provided by Sergio Aguero’s right foot.
‘It was a day off and I thought I would have a walk out,’ recalled Mike Summerbee this week.
‘I went into Kardomah, a coffee shop, on St Ann’s Square. There was a girl at one table, a blonde, and a guy on his own at another. The guy was George Best.
‘I had seen him on the TV and in the papers, a Manchester United superstar. But he didn’t know me from Adam. I was a nobody. But it turns out he had just come back from Ireland and was homesick too, alone and missing his family. I was 22 and he was 19. I caught his eye and went over and that was it. That was how it started.’
Ten years ago this autumn, George Best died. He was 59. The world of football lost one of its most captivating stars and Summerbee, the former Manchester City forward, lost his best friend.
‘It seems like yesterday in some ways,’ said Summerbee.
‘I still think of him always and often. How could I not? I pass the places we went and bump into the people we knew.
‘He left such an imprint on life in Manchester. My wife Tina always said that you could never imagine George being an old man and it turns out she was right.
‘I would love to have seen him play football today. Stone me, on these perfect pitches. Can you imagine? When you think of the conditions George played under; kicking, tackling from behind, heavy pitches, a case ball. George went through all that and gave it all back.
‘In a derby game once we man-marked him and George scored after 60 seconds. I turned to (City manager) Malcolm Allison and said, “Do we have a plan B then?”’
As the red and blue of Manchester prepare to come together at Old Trafford for the 170th derby, an examination of Best and Summerbee’s friendship is like looking through a window into a different world.
The back of Summerbee’s autobiography carries a photograph of the two footballers on holiday together in Majorca in the summer of 1967. Ladies are also present.
‘Neither of us could swim,’ smiled Summerbee.
‘We just used to walk deep enough into the water so it looked as though we could.’
Tales of the duo’s nocturnal journeys around Manchester are well known.
It is, however, the small details of the friendship that tell of startling normality foreign to today’s game. These details colour the story. Less than a year after they met, for example, Best drove them to Wembley — picking up a speeding ticket on the way — and stood in the crowd at the 1966 World Cup final. Once, when he was suspended, Summerbee took Best’s father Dickie to Anfield to watch United play Liverpool from the Kop.
Every other Friday, meanwhile, they would stand on the terraces together and watch Stockport County play.
‘We would stand behind the goal and leave 10 minutes before the end,’ Summerbee said. ‘We would sign a couple of autographs but that would be it. No bother.’
Saturdays would be different, of course. A friendship that grew quickly and cared little for the fact they played on opposing sides of Manchester’s football divide had at its geographical heart the restaurants, bars and clubs of the city. Even then, though, a night out often wouldn’t commence until Best and Summerbee had popped into Arturo’s, a restaurant where they knew their respective managers — Joe Mercer and Sir Matt Busby — would be dining together with their wives.
‘The two managers lived on the same street and they were close,’ recalled Summerbee. ‘So we would go to where they ate and let them see us there, having a meal and drinking Coke. The perfect professionals!
‘The wives would ask if we were being looked after at our digs and then I would say, “Night boss, night boss” — because I called Sir Matt “boss” too — and as soon as we were out the door we were like “Yes!” and off we’d go into the night.’
Best and Summerbee played against each other on many occasions during a time when United and City briefly stood toe-to-toe at the peak of the English game. Only once did they turn out for the same team.
‘It was a charity match at Oldham,’ said Summerbee. ‘We had been to a wedding reception in town in the morning and had a few drinks.
‘The gate was supposed to be 2,000 and then word spread that George was playing. There were 15,000 there.
‘Anyway, he passed to me once all afternoon. But ours wasn’t a football friendship. It was hardly discussed.
‘Red and blue certainly never came into it, but then football wasn’t like that then. The relationship wasn’t tribal.
‘The Munich disaster and what happened there had played its part in that. Some people went to both City and United games.
‘For George and I, it only ever came into consideration when, before a derby game, I would just go over and tell him not to take the p*** out of me. I knew that if I went anywhere near him the ball would be straight through my legs.’
Younger supporters of Manchester football will never forget the final day of the 2011-12 season and the thrilling denouement provided by Sergio Aguero’s right foot.
Continued...
This had, however, happened before, City’s win at Newcastle on the last day of the 1967-68 season clinching the title from United. Summerbee remembers the day fondly.
‘I think this story epitomises George,’ he said. ‘I told him on the Thursday that whatever happened I would see him at the Cabaret Club at 1am that night.
‘We didn’t fly back from Newcastle as they do now. We were in an old bus. If you needed a wee you did it out of the door and told the driver to put the wipers on.
‘It took ages and you can imagine how George must have felt waiting, having just lost the Championship. Had it been me I would have gone home. But to be there waiting for me was something else.
‘We didn’t talk about it. I said, “bad luck” and he said, “well done” and that was it. After that we were just two young lads out in town.
‘As always we went to the clubs, sat at the bar like wallflowers. George never danced. As for me, there was more life in a glass of Andrews. Deep down George was a very shy man, you have to understand that. On the pitch he wasn’t. That was his stage but at night, there it was, that shyness.’
The narrative of this friendship, this story, is one notably free of Best’s troubles with alcohol that were eventually to ruin him. At times it reeks only of innocence.
To this day United European Cup winner Pat Crerand tells how Best and Summerbee offered to babysit his young daughter only to sneak two girls in the back door.
Back then, Best drank vodka and lemonade rather than the white wine that was to become both friend and enemy in later life.
That’s not to say the nights out weren’t long. Both lived in digs when they met but in the late 1960s they bought a flat and then a clothes store together.
The motivation for the first purchase does not require spelling out here. When the clubs chucked out, meanwhile, they would head for Phyllis’s, a not-strictly-legal drinking den in a big Victorian house in Whalley Range, and then, after a few hours of sleep, Sunday afternoons would be spent at a friend’s house in the suburb of Northenden.
‘It would be tea and cakes and there would be a few girls,’ smiled Summerbee.
‘Maybe a few Miss UKs. They were not there to see me.’
If this social Wurlitzer seems as far removed from lives lived today by stars of the Barclays Premier League, that’s because it is. As time passed, for example, social base camp became the Brown Bull, a scruffy pub in Salford.
Best and Summerbee gathered there regularly with other players, both red and blue. United stars Crerand and Alex Stepney were very much part of that scene. Not for nothing did Busby come to call it the hostelry from hell.
Summerbee held his stag do in the Brown Bull, with seven United players present, in the September of 1968. George Best was his best man and behaved impeccably once the groom had dismissed the suggestion that he jump over the nearest wall and make a run for freedom.
‘He was brilliant that day, so humble and respectful, but I was the only groom whose bride spent most of the day staring at the best man,’ is how Summerbee recalls it now.
To those looking for reasons, or timings, for Best’s ultimate decline into alcohol abuse, however, the loss of his running mate to the conventions of marriage and family life is often cited.
Best himself always blamed United’s fall from grace for his own. Others believe it was a lack of fulfilment on the international stage with Northern Ireland. It should also be noted here, sadly, that Best’s own mother died an alcoholic at the age of 54.
Undoubtedly, though, Best’s life changed once Summerbee and Dave Sadler, another close friend and team-mate, settled down.
‘The time I was with him, he never drank more than me,’ stressed Summerbee.
‘That would have come later when he became a world figure, almost a rock star.
‘I was fortunate. I met Tina and that gave me the stability I wanted. Had George done the same thing, it would have been a different story for him. I know that. Deep down he wanted that, too.
‘It was almost impossible for him, though. He was so attractive to people that he would walk into a place and Miss Worlds would faint.
‘That environment was not conducive to getting a normal life. I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been to be a person like George Best and a player like George Best and to look like George Best. Nobody can, so people shouldn’t try.
‘But people like David Beckham should look to George and his memory and say thank you very much. He was the one who made footballers a commercial product and first took the negative stuff that came with it.’
Best’s career at United was beset by difficulties in the early 1970s and finally ended in January 1974. By this time and during subsequent spells in America, his friendship with Summerbee had taken on a different shape.
‘When you are that close you don’t have to see each other all the time,’ Summerbee said.
Now 72, he finds it hard to talk about his friend’s problems.
On occasions he intervened, once tracking down a missing Best to the bar of London club Tramp — he was alone — and on another occasion shepherding him to a car on finding him worse for wear at a birthday party for Michael Caine at Langan’s.
‘Maybe that was the first time I recognised there was a problem,’ he said.
‘George had been waiting for us and it was obvious he was finding it difficult so we managed to get a group round him and walked him out so nobody could see.
‘It was difficult and painful for us. In our day our friendship had given me such confidence. Just being around George did that. So to see him like that was terrible.
‘I just think he was unhappy in the second part of his life, I really do. I think George liked company, he preferred it. It’s OK being famous but with George loneliness came with it. It was terrible, that.
‘That day at Tramp, we sat and talked and it was so very sad.
‘You don’t want to see someone who has made such a contribution to people’s lives and given people so much pleasure sitting there all alone in that state. It just didn’t seem fair.’
Summerbee chose not to visit Best as he spent his final days in a London hospital in November 2005. ‘That wouldn’t have been George Best and I wanted to remember George Best,’ said Summerbee. ‘I don’t regret it.
‘I paid my respects at the funeral in Belfast and that was a beautiful occasion in its way. It brought Ireland together for a day. I just want to remember him as the great athlete and a great friend.’
To that end, we finish our conversation with attention back on the football.
‘It was only the people who went to Old Trafford regularly who really understood it,’ said Summerbee.
‘They saw something they will probably never see again. He was a genius. He played football like he was playing on the rec.
‘He used to walk on to the field doing his laces or pulling his socks up. He never wore shinpads or did any stretches. Him and Denis (Law) were like skeletons but they both had elbows like razor blades.
‘I can still picture him going round that poor goalkeeper in the 1968 European Cup final at Wembley. I was there that night, in the crowd. That was George, my mate, on his stage.
‘He never watched that much football on TV but he would have watched the one this weekend. United and City at the top. He would have loved that.
‘He would have preferred to be playing, mind.’
‘I think this story epitomises George,’ he said. ‘I told him on the Thursday that whatever happened I would see him at the Cabaret Club at 1am that night.
‘We didn’t fly back from Newcastle as they do now. We were in an old bus. If you needed a wee you did it out of the door and told the driver to put the wipers on.
‘It took ages and you can imagine how George must have felt waiting, having just lost the Championship. Had it been me I would have gone home. But to be there waiting for me was something else.
‘We didn’t talk about it. I said, “bad luck” and he said, “well done” and that was it. After that we were just two young lads out in town.
‘As always we went to the clubs, sat at the bar like wallflowers. George never danced. As for me, there was more life in a glass of Andrews. Deep down George was a very shy man, you have to understand that. On the pitch he wasn’t. That was his stage but at night, there it was, that shyness.’
The narrative of this friendship, this story, is one notably free of Best’s troubles with alcohol that were eventually to ruin him. At times it reeks only of innocence.
To this day United European Cup winner Pat Crerand tells how Best and Summerbee offered to babysit his young daughter only to sneak two girls in the back door.
Back then, Best drank vodka and lemonade rather than the white wine that was to become both friend and enemy in later life.
That’s not to say the nights out weren’t long. Both lived in digs when they met but in the late 1960s they bought a flat and then a clothes store together.
The motivation for the first purchase does not require spelling out here. When the clubs chucked out, meanwhile, they would head for Phyllis’s, a not-strictly-legal drinking den in a big Victorian house in Whalley Range, and then, after a few hours of sleep, Sunday afternoons would be spent at a friend’s house in the suburb of Northenden.
‘It would be tea and cakes and there would be a few girls,’ smiled Summerbee.
‘Maybe a few Miss UKs. They were not there to see me.’
If this social Wurlitzer seems as far removed from lives lived today by stars of the Barclays Premier League, that’s because it is. As time passed, for example, social base camp became the Brown Bull, a scruffy pub in Salford.
Best and Summerbee gathered there regularly with other players, both red and blue. United stars Crerand and Alex Stepney were very much part of that scene. Not for nothing did Busby come to call it the hostelry from hell.
Summerbee held his stag do in the Brown Bull, with seven United players present, in the September of 1968. George Best was his best man and behaved impeccably once the groom had dismissed the suggestion that he jump over the nearest wall and make a run for freedom.
‘He was brilliant that day, so humble and respectful, but I was the only groom whose bride spent most of the day staring at the best man,’ is how Summerbee recalls it now.
To those looking for reasons, or timings, for Best’s ultimate decline into alcohol abuse, however, the loss of his running mate to the conventions of marriage and family life is often cited.
Best himself always blamed United’s fall from grace for his own. Others believe it was a lack of fulfilment on the international stage with Northern Ireland. It should also be noted here, sadly, that Best’s own mother died an alcoholic at the age of 54.
Undoubtedly, though, Best’s life changed once Summerbee and Dave Sadler, another close friend and team-mate, settled down.
‘The time I was with him, he never drank more than me,’ stressed Summerbee.
‘That would have come later when he became a world figure, almost a rock star.
‘I was fortunate. I met Tina and that gave me the stability I wanted. Had George done the same thing, it would have been a different story for him. I know that. Deep down he wanted that, too.
‘It was almost impossible for him, though. He was so attractive to people that he would walk into a place and Miss Worlds would faint.
‘That environment was not conducive to getting a normal life. I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been to be a person like George Best and a player like George Best and to look like George Best. Nobody can, so people shouldn’t try.
‘But people like David Beckham should look to George and his memory and say thank you very much. He was the one who made footballers a commercial product and first took the negative stuff that came with it.’
Best’s career at United was beset by difficulties in the early 1970s and finally ended in January 1974. By this time and during subsequent spells in America, his friendship with Summerbee had taken on a different shape.
‘When you are that close you don’t have to see each other all the time,’ Summerbee said.
Now 72, he finds it hard to talk about his friend’s problems.
On occasions he intervened, once tracking down a missing Best to the bar of London club Tramp — he was alone — and on another occasion shepherding him to a car on finding him worse for wear at a birthday party for Michael Caine at Langan’s.
‘Maybe that was the first time I recognised there was a problem,’ he said.
‘George had been waiting for us and it was obvious he was finding it difficult so we managed to get a group round him and walked him out so nobody could see.
‘It was difficult and painful for us. In our day our friendship had given me such confidence. Just being around George did that. So to see him like that was terrible.
‘I just think he was unhappy in the second part of his life, I really do. I think George liked company, he preferred it. It’s OK being famous but with George loneliness came with it. It was terrible, that.
‘That day at Tramp, we sat and talked and it was so very sad.
‘You don’t want to see someone who has made such a contribution to people’s lives and given people so much pleasure sitting there all alone in that state. It just didn’t seem fair.’
Summerbee chose not to visit Best as he spent his final days in a London hospital in November 2005. ‘That wouldn’t have been George Best and I wanted to remember George Best,’ said Summerbee. ‘I don’t regret it.
‘I paid my respects at the funeral in Belfast and that was a beautiful occasion in its way. It brought Ireland together for a day. I just want to remember him as the great athlete and a great friend.’
To that end, we finish our conversation with attention back on the football.
‘It was only the people who went to Old Trafford regularly who really understood it,’ said Summerbee.
‘They saw something they will probably never see again. He was a genius. He played football like he was playing on the rec.
‘He used to walk on to the field doing his laces or pulling his socks up. He never wore shinpads or did any stretches. Him and Denis (Law) were like skeletons but they both had elbows like razor blades.
‘I can still picture him going round that poor goalkeeper in the 1968 European Cup final at Wembley. I was there that night, in the crowd. That was George, my mate, on his stage.
‘He never watched that much football on TV but he would have watched the one this weekend. United and City at the top. He would have loved that.
‘He would have preferred to be playing, mind.’
Good read, that - thanks @Skizzo.
Probably mentioned it before but I bumped into Best once years ago (I was just a kid, really). Lovely guy in every way, but he was off the wagon (again) at the time, so he didn't make much sense. What did strike me, however (and which always struck me, when Best was interviewed over the years), was precisely what Summerbee alludes to above: The fact that he was humble in a way you'd never expect, or "shy" as Summerbee says. And lost, somehow - out of place. It wasn't just the drinking - it was something else, can't quite explain it.
But seeing him in the flesh, even in that state, you certainly understood right away what made him so attractive: He had charisma like few people I've ever encountered - he was simply glowing with it. Strange - and great - man.
Probably mentioned it before but I bumped into Best once years ago (I was just a kid, really). Lovely guy in every way, but he was off the wagon (again) at the time, so he didn't make much sense. What did strike me, however (and which always struck me, when Best was interviewed over the years), was precisely what Summerbee alludes to above: The fact that he was humble in a way you'd never expect, or "shy" as Summerbee says. And lost, somehow - out of place. It wasn't just the drinking - it was something else, can't quite explain it.
But seeing him in the flesh, even in that state, you certainly understood right away what made him so attractive: He had charisma like few people I've ever encountered - he was simply glowing with it. Strange - and great - man.
Have you read 'Scoring at Half Time'? Amazing book of excerpts from Georgie's life and his antics.
Yeah it really seemed that he did want to just settle down somewhat himself, like all his mates were, but obviously being a global star (probably the first on the level he was) that it was never going to happen for him in the same way. Never being able to get away from the spotlight like in his younger days. As the game changed, he became a bit of a victim of his own popularity/charisma/aura etc.
I did have a bit of a chuckle with the "do we have a plan B then boss?"