40s Retro Football Fantasy Draft | Finished

Update: I'm a bit behind here due to work, so I may not be able to send my stuff to Aldo before midnight. However, I should manage to send him the formation/basic tactical info sometime before tomorrow morning (i.e. before, say 7AM UTC), so that the match can be played on the day we settled on (actually starting the thing right after midnight UTC probably isn't the best idea anyway).

What I'll do is finish up the basics, then add some player info and links in the main thread by and by. I don't plan on writing any novels about the players - will focus on those I presume the average voter will be less familiar with, and will also focus on the aspects of their game which are most relevant to my approach in the match.
 
All games have to be played within a week after the drafting finished. We really should stick to that rule or the drafts drag out for so long that even the managers lose interest in it. We had that before.

Agree with this FWIW
 
TEAM harms PLAYER PROFILES

ReTXOI2.jpg


Jan van Beveren


In the goal I have arguably the greatest Dutch keeper of all-time, certainly the most naturally gifted one. There was not a spot in goal that Jan could not reach with his athletic jump. He played more than 400 games for Sparta and PSV before moving to USA and his career also included 32 caps for Netherlands. It would’ve been more if not for the injuries and his infamous feud with Johan Cruyff. After failing to qualify for the 1970 World Cup, Van Beveren lashed out against his teammates: «we lost because some players didn’t want to put themselves out. They were only talking about money. If you play for your nation, who cares about money?». The criticism was well-deserved, but Cruyff, a difficult person that he is, didn’t forgave the keeper and pushed him out of the national team.

pOYTxyI.jpg


Ruud Krol

This is quite simple, really - one of the best defenders ever and the definition of a defender in a total football system. He was a crucial part of the all-conquering Ajax team of the 70’s and equally important part of the Netherlands national side which made in to two consecutive World Cup finals in 1974 and 1978 (with Krol playing a left-back in 1974 and a sweeper in 1978). He made it in 2 World Cup All-Star teams, in Euro team of the tournament and was nominated 5 times in Ballon D’Or list (including a third place in 1979). Couldn’t be happier with him.

LEGENDS_112_Giacinto_Facchetti.JPG


Giacinto Facchetti

Probably the best left-back of all time and certainly the most influential one. Not much needs to be said about him, equally brilliant defending and going forward he was fantastic for both Herrera's Inter and Euro 1968 winning Italy. My captain.

n3Xzhhj.jpg


Horst Blankenburg

Basically a Beckenbauer-light. Also a part of an all-conquering Ajax side of the 70’s, Blankenburg won 3 European Cups with them. He was unlucky to be born in the same time as Beckenbauer - the libber place in the national team was given to the Kaizer without any second thoughts (and who can blame them?), but Blankenburg never gave up hope. So when in 1974 Cruyff asked him to play for the Netherlands in the World Cup, he refused. A year before the 1974 World Cup, Blankenburg was chosen as part of a selection of Europe’s best players. Ironically enough, the team was coached by Schön (the manager of that Germany side). Schön even told him after that match that he would get his chance but Blankenburg never heard back from him. To this day, he remains the only player to be included in such a team without a single cap for his country.

yVcSmB9.jpg


Vladimir Kaplychnyi

Nicknamed «Wolfhound» he was a very tough and physical defender. Like Blankenburg he was unlucky to be born at the same time as the two of the Soviet greatest ever defenders - Schesternyov and Khurtsilava, yet he managed to earn 62 caps for his country - and that says something. He participated in 1968 Euro, where Soviet lost by a coin toss in the semis and in 1972 Euro, where USSR lost to an all-time great German side in the final. Also a great leader of men, he inherited the captain armband both in CSKA and USSR after Albert Schesternyov retired.

F4tYqCe.jpg


Revaz Dzodzuashvili

The best defensive right-back in USSR history. When the Soviet team found out that they were to play North Ireland in the qualifications, they immediately started a competition for a right-back place in the national side. The main question was, obviously, who is going to man-mark the best player in the world, George Best. 9 right-backs were chosen from all over the country for a trial and Dzodzuashvili proved to be the best. He studied Best for 6 months by watching the same 20-minute film over and over again, and when the time did come, he was prepared. He kept Best quiet that day, and in their next fixture Best was almost non-existent because of Dzodzuashvili’s man-marking skills. On the verge of success he also played personally against Dzajic - and for the first 20 minutes everything went wrong, Revaz was too confident and Dzajic was using it for his advantage. But after that he managed to get back in the game and Dzajic was well-handled by him for the next 70 minutes and also for the next 4 games, even Dzajic said that he was in Dzodzuashvili’s pocket in that games.

rPDaxrL.jpg


Dimitar Penev

A central defender with 90 caps for Bulgaria to his name. Probably the best ever Bulgarian defender, he won Bulgarian player of the year award two times, in 1967 and in 1971 and participated in 3 World Cups. A stylish, yet physical centre-back, he never was sent off in his career. He is also known as a manager who discovered Hristo Stoichkov, Dimitar Berbatov and a few other significant names for us.
 
Last edited:
tdNOQHk.jpg


Gerrie Mühren

A skilful midfielder that was one of the stars of the Ajax golden generations that won 3 consecutive European Cups. He is responsible for the single most brilliant individual moment that deserved a standing ovation from Bernabeu in 1973: «It was the moment when Ajax and Real Madrid changed positions,» said Mühren later. «Before that it was always the big Real Madrid and the little Ajax. When they saw me doing that, the balance changed.»

He was a true total footballer - he played in a left midfield role but he was famous for his bursts forward, while he was also capable of covering for the left or centre backs. Some say that he is the most technically brilliant Dutch player after Bergkamp.

6HScmob.jpg


Franz Roth

Nicknamed «Der Bulle» for his appearance and physical strength he is one of only 16 players to be included in Bayern Munich Hall of Fame. A midfield enforcer, capable of playing as a side midfielder he provides a tenacity and a great goal threat from one of his long-range shots. He scored a winner in 2 consecutive European Cup finals (and winning 3 of them with the dominant Bayern side).

Jkvccxo.jpg


Gianfranco Bedin

The fulcrum of Herrera’s Grande Inter. A tenacious ball-winning midfielder, he won three Serie A titles as well as the European Cup and 2 Intercontinental Cups. Not the most talented on the ball he provided the foundation for more attacking Luis Suarez and Sandro Mazzola. He was absolutely tireless which made him the perfect man for a man-marking job
Bedin said:
My job was to mark the strongest opponent, people like Rivera, Eusebio, Pele, Sivori, Di Stefano and Neeskens

WvH70a-600x381.jpg


Willem van Hanegem

The best midfielder in the draft. His names always pops up in the discussions about the greatest Dutch player ever, he was immense for European Cup's winning Feyenoord side (the first Dutch team to win the trophy) and for the national team, playing second fiddle to Cruyff and orchestrating play from the deep.
Cruyff said:
Van Hanegem has one advantage over me. When I have a bad game, I’m useless. When Van Hanegem has a bad game, he rolls up his sleeves and starts tackling



jtdx6Q2.jpg


Bobby Lennox

A brilliant goalscoring winger - he has roughly 1 in 2 statistic in his whole career, while not playing as the focal point of the attack - impressive achievement. With 273 goals he is second best goalscorer in Celtic history. Another one to thrive on Albert’s through-balls, his acceleration was almost Romario-esque and his pace was very impressive too. «Buzz-bomb», or «Lemon» was an integral piece of the Lisbon Lions, who won European Cup in 1967. When you look back, Bobby Lennox was a pivotal player in Scottish football's greatest period: winning the European Cup, beating Real Madrid on their own ground and then defeating England at Wembley (for Scotland).
Sir Bobby Charlton said:
If I'd had Lennox in my team, I could have played forever. He was one of the best strikers I have ever seen
Alfredo Di Stefano said:
The Scotsman who gave me the most trouble was Bobby Lennox of Celtic. My testimonial at the Bernabeu was against Celtic as, of course, they were the champions of Europe in 1967, and although I remember the Bernabeu rising to Jimmy Johnstone, I admired Lennox greatly.

gwDWAum.jpg


Jimmy Johnstone

Jimmy Johnstone was one of Scotland's greatest ever footballers; a winger of outstanding control, balance and dribbling abilities, he instilled fear and bewilderment in opposing defences.

Johnstone scored 130 goals in 495 games for Celtic, but must have made at least twice as many for his team-mates. Utterly elusive with the ball at his feet, he seemed to mesmerise even the most highly-regarded opponents, beating three, four or five defenders before passing the ball; he was invariably assigned at least two markers.

This made life easier for his team-mates (with one of whom, Bobby Lennox, he developed an almost uncanny understanding); even when he was not knocking inch-perfect scoring passes to their feet, he was creating space for them or giving them confidence by winning throw-ins and corners.

"Jinky" Johnstone, as he was known, was a "wee man"; there was also a minimum of upper-body or arm movement, and the apparent economy of effort seemed to contribute to the bamboozling effect he had on defences. His ability to go past defenders was his greatest asset, but he was also very fit and strong, and could sometimes act as an extra defender.



iSi9MD9.jpg


Johan Cruyff

The best European player of all-time (by IFFHS voting); 3 times Ballon D'Or winner; a leader, a talisman and the best player of the dominant Ajax/Netherlands sides of the 70's. Words can not describe him, so here's one of the many many compilations of him:




0YrZCcU.jpg


Florian Albert

My gem. A knight in a shining armour that led Hungary to their last big achievement and the best thing that happened to Hungary since Aranycsapat. One of the most elegant players to ever grace the game, he had impeccable ball control, instant acceleration, extrasensory vision, immaculate passing and a powerful shot, the posture of a ballerina and the capacity to effortlessly glide past opponents as if he were a downhill skier and they were static gates. Ballon D’Or winner in 1967 and a hero in Hungary’s game against the World Champions Brazil in 1966, when he dictated the game which was the first Brazil loss at the World Cup in 12 years. Hungary defender Sandor Matrai remembered: “Garrincha, Gerson and Tostao were on the field in Liverpool, but there were 50,000-plus neutrals roaring “Albert, Albert, Albert” throughout!
Lajos Tichy said:
He would come deep, gallop past [opponents] like they didn’t exist, and then thread these wonderful through-balls for us to run on to. He was joy to play with – he made it so easy for us



JWTvl21.jpg


Paul van Himst

The best player that Belgium ever had, according to UEFA’s Jubilee award and the record holder of 4 Belgium Golden Shoes (the award for the best player of the year). He was eloquently nicknamed «The White Pele» and «Polle Gazone», the second one was about how much he was fouled against. A fantastic forward with brilliant ball-carrying skills and a great burst of acceleration, he will thrive on my service and can also interchange with Albert to confuse the opposition. He is 39th best European player ever according to the IFFHS Century elections, ahead of the likes of Dzajic, Scirea, Suarez, Maldini and Baggio.
 
Last edited:
@Invictus are you a football journalist or something, or do you just research this stuff 24/7? Good info with the spoilers.
 
Billy%20McNeill


An undoubted Celtic great, Billy McNeill, 'Cesar', was the captain of the Lisbon Lions and the lynchpin in the team Stein led to much success.

McNeill was born on 2 March 1940 in Bellshill, North Lanarkshire, of part Irish and part Lithuanian descent.

He was signed by Celtic from nearby junior team, Blantyre Victoria, in 1957 as a defender. As captain he won nine Scottish League Championships, seven Scottish Cups, and six Scottish League Cups, as well as the European Cup final. He had the honour of being the first British player to lift the European Cup.

He retired as a player in 1975 after over 800 appearances for Celtic. During his career, he won 29 caps for Scotland.

Whenever someone discusses Celtic's nine-in-a-row, the focus is always on Jock Stein and what he did. Sometimes it can just overshadow the part that the players played in this, and in some ways that is very true of Billy McNeill ('Cesar'), possibly Celtic's greatest elder statesman.


It's said that Stein's appointment as manager was important to Billy McNeill yet the truth is that Billy's presence at Parkhead was just as important for Stein. Celtic's rise to the top began step by step and it was Billy who scored the pivotal winning goal in the 1965 Scottish Cup final against the match final favourites Dunfermline to give Celtic their first senior trophy since 1957. A late charge with eight minutes to go saw Celtic win a corner. Charlie Gallagher swung in a perfect inswinger into the box which McNeill connected to and headed the ball into the back of the net. Billy was only in the box as he was pushed by Jock Stein to do so, previously defenders were told not to do so.


From here on in, Billy's ability as a player was now at the forefront of Celtic's play. A strong determined footballer, he commanded respect not only from his fellow players but from opposition players as well. Strong in the tackle and in the air, he was a commanding player but it was his organisational skills and communicational abilities on the park that gave him an edge over others. He had an aura and despite his strong will, he was actually a pleasant and decent person at all times and few if any have ever had anything to say bad about him. There was no high & mighty attitude with Billy, and all were treated fairly.


The league title in 1965-66 increased Billy's stature at the club, but the first signs of what could be achieved were sown in the European Cup Winners Cup in 1965-66 where Celtic bowed out in the semi-finals. It was a disappointment but a pre-cursor to the glorious 1966-67 season where Billy McNeill was the lynchpin to success. The role of honour can never be understated, the domestic treble (league, Scottish Cup and League Cup) with the European Cup is as much a testament to his abilities as Captain of the side as it was to Jock Stein's managerial ability.


GW220H220
The European Cup final of 1967 was the pinnacle of his career. In his own words: “The biggest thing I had to do as captain was in illustrating to the team that we had nothing to fear. I had to swap pennants with their captain, Picchi before the kick-off. We exchanged words but I didn’t have any Italian and I don’t think he had any English, but you always manage to get through.” A stout Celtic defence sadly conceded an early goal, but the team was more than ably captained by McNeill, and Celtic fought back to defeat the Catenaccio of Inter Milan.


The following World Club Championships, where Celtic were kicked and assaulted to defeat by Racing Club, was a low point for Celtic, but an interview with a Racing player later depicted a side to Billy McNeill's character that showed him to be a giant against above all other men. The player saw Billy McNeill approach at the final whistle and expected an assault after what had transpired in the previous 90 mins. Instead, Billy McNeill graciously and humbly held out his hand and they shook hands followed by an exchanging of jerseys. The player was so taken by the gesture in the strained circumstances that he grasped McNeill's jersey tight and ran back to the dressing rooms so as to ensure no one could take it from him. He stated that after all that happened he was humbled by Billy McNeill and hoped they might play again in the World Cup 1970 (which Scotland sadly didn't make). It was the mark of the man that he was able to still be a gentleman even in the face of so much tension and havoc. (See match page.)


Coming years saw Celtic continue to dominate domestically under Jock Stein's auspice. As a captain Billy was the main man and a total inspiration to those around him on the pitch and on the terracing. For a centre half to score in three Scottish cup finals is a magnificent achievement (1965, 1969 and 1972) and his leadership was inspirational during the glory years. It's no coincidence that when Celtic lost 4-1 to Partick Thistle in the 1971 LCF that Billy's presence in defence was badly missed. The fans admired him tremendously and Billy McNeill was greatly loved by the Celtic support.


Major Honours as a Player
European Cup
Scottish Division One
Scottish Cup
Scottish League Cup
 
11898-zoom.jpg


Roy McFarland, a consummate professional and one of the most respected figures in English football. As a player Brian Clough called him `a Rolls-Royce of a defender’, whilst former England manager and colleague Kevin Keegan says, `McFarland was world-class’. `Roy of the Rams’ or `Supermac’ as he was known, endeared himself to Derbyshire football fans forever by skippering Derby County to the Football League Championship in 1972.

Clough famously snatched him from under Liverpool’s noses and took him to Derby County for a fee of £24,000 – in circumstances that are legend:
Clough & Taylor turned up very late one night at the terraced house in Liverpool where Roy lived with his parents and got him out of bed, sat him between the two of them, and `bent his ear until 2am’. Roy had dreams of playing for Liverpool, the club he supported as a boy, and asked for time to think it over. Clough replied, “Take as much time as you want lad – but we’re not leaving this house until you’ve made a decision”.

Roy’s father came to Derby’s rescue: “If they want you that badly, son, I think you should sign”. He did, and from the moment he arrived at the Baseball Ground, McFarland made a huge impact, helping Derby reach the League Cup semi-finals in his first season and quickly becoming a favourite with the fans. With Dave Mackay alongside him, Roy’s confidence and class blossomed at the heart of Derby’s defence and he was a key figure in the team which stormed to the Second Division Title in 1969, and his solid displays soon earned him an England debut against Malta in February 1971.

The following season (1972) he led Derby County to the League Championship title and to the Semi-Finals of the European Cup in 1973.

McFarland was 24 years old and at the peak of his profession when he suffered a severe achilles tendon injury playing for England against Northern Ireland at Wembley in May 1974. The injury was career-threatening and Roy was out of action for almost a year, but he bravely battled back to play the final four games of the 1975-76 season and lead Derby County to another League Chapionship.
 
imago00462883h.jpg


Branko Oblak (born on 27 May 1947 in Ljubljana, PR Slovenia, FPR Yugoslavia) is a Slovenian football coach and former international player. He usually played as an attacking midfielder or deep-lying playmaker, notable for his excellent dribbling, stamina, great vision and precision passing. He was also capable of helping out defensively.


Brane, as he is often known, started playing football at the youth team of Svoboda. In 1965 he went to Ljubljana's more famous club, Olimpija. He made his debut on 20 May 1966 against Partizan in Belgrade, where he scored both Olimpija's goals for a 1–2 win. He stayed with Olimpija until 1973. During that time he played 181 matches and scored 33 goals.


In 1973, he moved to Hajduk Split and stayed there for two seasons. In both seasons Hajduk won the national champion and cup winner titles. In 1975 he signed a two-year contract with Schalke 04 of the German Bundesliga for what was a world record fee for that season. In the 1976–77 season, Oblak's second year at the club, Schalke 04 finished the league in second place, behind Borussia Mönchengladbach. In the summer of 1977, Oblak went to Bayern Munich. He stayed there for three seasons and in his final season with the club (1979–80), Bayern became the German champion. After that, Oblak played in various Austrian amateur clubs until 1987, when he retired as a football player.


Oblak's debut for the Yugoslav national team came in a friendly match against Romania in 1971. The same year he had the honour of playing at Pelé's farewell match at the Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro. At the 1974 World Cup in Germany, he and his teammate Danilo Popivoda became the first Slovenians to play in a World Cup. Even more impressive is that Oblak was selected into the best squad of the World Cup. In 1976 he played at the European Championship, which was hosted by Yugoslavia. His excellent pass for the first goal in the semi final match against Germany is still remembered among football experts. After the tournament, he retired from international football. In altogether 46 matches he scored six goals.
 
Pel%C3%A9+y+Mifflin+Cosmos.JPG


[Bad Translation]
Anyone who wants a good half an owner of 22 years, humbly and with love to Brazilian football, just go to Hotel Plaza Copacabana, on Avenida Princesa Isabel, in Rio de Janeiro.
That was how the Score magazine, in its issue of July 3, 1970, portrayed the imminent return of coach Didi to Brazil shortly after the 1970 Cup in Mexico.
Didi, who had worked as Peruvian coach during the dispute of the world, signaled his return to Rio de Janeiro probably side of the midfielder Ramón Mifflin.

Mifflin, the brain of the Peruvian team in Mexican lawns, was intended by Vasco da Gama who officiated their interest through a call from President Agatirno Gomes.At the time the Score magazine also picked one Mifflin's testimony about the defeat of Peru to Brazil by 4 × 2:

- We lost to a team that is twenty years in front of us. Imagine the miracle that made going to the quarterfinals. If we had not met the Brazil I think we could go further!

The skillful Ramón Antonio Paez Mifflin was born in Lima, Peru, on April 5, 1947. His first steps as a footballer occurred in the Oratory of Magdalena in the mid-early 1963.Shortly after two seasons, Professor Eugenio Castaneda decided to forward it to Iqueño Centre Club in 1965, remaining there until 1967, when it was transferred to the Defensor Arica.

Quickly came to Mifflin trendy Sporting Cristal, where he lived her best stage and reached the Peruvian selected that disqualified the Argentines and played in the World Cup 1970.

Known for its legendary adventures in a Chevrolet Impala convertible, red color, soon became one of the most paid players of the heavenly staff of Sporting Cristal.

Regardless of the growing fame, Mifflin collected friends wherever he went. His first calls for the national selected took place in early 1967 and continued over 44 participations by the year 1973.
After the good participation in the 1970 World Cup, Mifflin could not wear the shirt of Vasco because of a financial disagreement between the boards of the team from São Januário and Sporting Cristal.

But before the interests of Rio, Mifflin was already wanted by the Pelé of Santos. This relationship of friendship and admiration to the "King of Football" was started in clashes between the Brazilian and Peruvian selections in 1969, with two friendlies held in Beira Stadium Rio and another at the Maracana.

In the same year 1969, the team of Vila Belmiro wanted the Peruvian playmaker. At the time, even with the help of Didi, then coach of Peru, there was also no agreement with the board of the Peruvian team.

Later, during the 1970 World Cup, the world recorded the famous exchange between Pele and shirts Mifflin after canary victory over Peru in Guadalajara.Mifflin remained in Peruvian football until 1973, when he was hired by Racing of Argentina. By Sporting Cristal, the midfielder won national titles in 1968, 1970 and 1972.

Later also won the event in 1979 and 1980 editions, during his second spell with the same Sporting Cristal after returning from the New York Cosmos.

In Racing, Mifflin was a good pass, but did not adapt to the "picking" style of Argentine soccer. Then friendship with Pelé ended up favoring the realization of his desire to play in Brazilian football.

After talking to Pepe then alvinegro technical, the Peruvian half closed with the Fish, where he served for about a year and a half, between 1974 and 1975, just as Pele left for his mission in football.


Shortly thereafter, there was Mifflin in Cosmos to play alongside his friend Pele and other great stars of world football. In 1979 Mifflin returned to Peruvian football and in 1981 was his last season defending the Independiente Santa Fe in Colombia.

Then began his stint as coach, including being the Elbe assistant Padua, Tim, in the qualifiers for the World Cup 1982 in Spain.

Original link https://tardesdepacaembu.wordpress.com/tag/ramon-antonio-mifflin-paez/
 
@Aldo
@crappycraperson

I'm sorry gents, but I'm having a bit of a work related crisis to deal with here, so I can't do anything about this right now. Crappy can't play tomorrow, so my only suggestion is that we do it Sat or Sun - today is simply impossible for me.

Sorry about this, but work is work.
 
@Aldo
@crappycraperson

I'm sorry gents, but I'm having a bit of a work related crisis to deal with here, so I can't do anything about this right now. Crappy can't play tomorrow, so my only suggestion is that we do it Sat or Sun - today is simply impossible for me.

Sorry about this, but work is work.

Don't feel bad. Even I am busy with something else and leaving tomorrow for a family wedding weekend. I actually came here to give you a bye :).

It's either that or a game Monday evening. Aldo can decide.
 
Gunter%2BNETZER%2Bvoiture%2Bde%2Bsport.jpg


“I believe that truth has only one face: that of contradiction.” – Georges Bataille, ***********

How do you explain a man that owned a bar but never drank alcohol? The son of a humble greengrocer who ended up running a notorious nightclub? Who kept fast cars but never raced them? Who wore his blonde hair long like an Edwardian poet but insisted it was to hide his ugliness? A man who was nicknamed after a musical legend with a questionable past? An astute businessman who hated commercialism? A sex symbol who married an enigmatic goldsmith? A man whom intellectuals salivated over but was apolitical?

And that was off the pitch.

How can you describe a man who only won 30 International caps but orchestrated the greatest German national and one of the best German club sides, in Germany's much vaunted history and is considered the greatest German playmaker? A footballer who was immortalised in the 1973 German Cup Final, yet hadn't started the game and refused to come on until he decided the time was right? A player whose performance peaked in a single week the same year – but had arguably the game of his life expunged from the record books through no fault of his own?

Fiction has more room for ambivalence, moral ambiguity and contradiction than reality. In sport as in life things are easier if they are compartmentalised. Intuitively it is far more comfortable for us if our idols are one dimensional and easy to read. But that’s not always the case.

The footballer’s nickname was Karajan - a reference to the talented and charismatic conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic, Herbert von Karajan.

Yet the world knew the man as Günter Theodor Netzer.

With his natural flair and talent, Netzer was a hero to many of a certain vintage. Even now he is prized and venerated – for his football of course – but also for something more intangible. For a sense of dilettante seditiousness, for non-conformity and nonchalant defiance, for dissent and unruliness. For being an outspoken and curiously immodest individual in a team sport.

In a tribal footballing world where players were either thoughtless and inarticulate, or sensible and bland, Netzer personified rebelliousness and made it obercool. He was quoted: “I thought of headers as similar to handball. Personally, training camps used to make me wonder whether I ought to pack football in.” He also pronounced: “I have the ability to pull off something extraordinary during a match in extraordinary circumstances.”

This was a man who knew his worth. He could have been someone despised for Teutonic arrogance. Instead he was admired for his ability to transcend football’s usual partisanship with his laconic non-compliance for the prevailing culture of conformity.

Netzer once claimed: “I understand that I must run, but I do so reluctantly, at least, without the ball”.

The team he played for, the legendary, unconventional, Borussia Mönchengladbach side of the early 70s, nicknamed ‘the Foals’ for their high spirited youth, provided the perfect platform for his talents and temperament. Managed by the iconic Hennes Weisweiler, Gladbach were a side focused on the more esoteric pursuits of passion and pleasure rather than power and muscle. Weisweiler once expounded, “Our great advantage over all other sides is that our players are constantly moving. When Netzer is on the ball, he can choose from four or five players to pass to”.

And boy, did Netzer thrive. He was the best player in Bundesliga after a certain Beckenbauer and it reflected in the ratings were Netzer was ranked as the best midfielder in Bundesliga for a whopping 5 consecutive seasons - a record - and came 2nd in two other campaigns. All this in addition to being in the kicker's team of the season for seven consecutive seasons - a record only eclipsed by Beckenbauer. Whilst Netzer would lose out the balon d'Or in 1972 by just two votes to Beckenbauer, there was no doubt in Germany as to who was the best German player during 1971-1973, with Netzer's 417 votes dwarfing Der Kaiser's 127 votes in the 1972 German Footballer of the Year award - an award which Netzer would go on to win the next year as well.

Facchetti's La Grande Inter

Everyone knows Johan Cruyff’s Ajax took part in four European Cup finals in the space of five years. But to the true believers one decider ranks above all others in symbolism. Ajax versus Inter Milan in 1972; when the God-like Cruyff netted a double as ‘Total Football’ joyously banished Inter’s notorious ‘Catenaccio’. But it is a little known fact that the 1972 match, however satisfying, should never have taken place.

It was barely one year after the match of the century (Jahrhundertspiel) between Germany and Italy when the draw for the 1971/72 European Cup took place. Borussia Mönchengladbach manager Hennes Weisweiler had already stated that he would like to draw opposition like Grasshoppers Zürich or a team from Southern Europe. There was only team he wanted to avoid – Inter Milan.

After inevitably drawing Inter Milan, Netzer exclaimed “These guys are defending so well, it’s going to be hard to score against them”.

October 1971: In one of the most stunning German victories of all time, against Inter, reigning Champions of Italy, the Foals, galvanised by an early Jupp Heynckes goal, stormed to a 7-1 win. The Nerazzurri won the seemingly meaningless second leg 4-2.

However, after Inter made a complaint that Roberto Boninsegna was deemed to have been hit by an empty can during the first game, UEFA decreed the game was to be replayed and the 7-1 victory scratched from the record books. The match referee Dropsmans had his own take on UEFA’s decision: “There were a lot of Italians in UEFA’s committees at the time, and I’m not trying to be suggestive here, but Inter had the right people in the best positions.” One of the biggest matches Netzer's life, just erased from the archives of the competition, all because of an empty soda can - which now resides in Gladbach's museum.
 
CONTINUED...

The Gladbach’s players’ frustration over the decision was understandable according to the Dutch referee. Dropsmans himself had seen the situation, and despite Inter’s claims that Boninsegna had suffered a head wound after the can had hit his head, Dropsmans always stated that he thought that the striker was putting up an act (meaning that he could have continued playing). Whilst UEFA concluded that the can had been full of liquid, Dropsmans maintained that it was empty. The fact that the head wound Boninsegna couldn’t be spotted on him one day after the match may have indicated that the referee’s take was spot on.

The replayed game ended 0-0 in Berlin and the shocked Foals – Weisweiler, Heynckes, Netzer et al were out. Not only did they unjustly start the replayed first leg two goals down, due to the 2nd leg (4-2) which was essentially a dead rubber match in the first place, the Foals also missed a penalty, hit the bar, had several legitimate penalty appeals turned down and lost Ludwig Muller to a long-term injuries in that fateful 0-0 draw. The 7-1 result was expunged from the record books and a classic final for the ages denied between the vibrant Foals and the Total Football of Cruyff’s Ajax.

It will always be a regret that this final the Gods decreed – only to have mere mortals decide against it – will only ever be played out in the minds of ageing men and women, and intrigued youngsters who want to learn more. The mind forgets what it never sees.



Thankfully the moment lingers on in a haunting afterlife on YouTube. The first goal: Netzer displaying his renowned vision, threads the ball through to Heynckes who turns his man and slams it into the near post. Too earthy? And the fourth goal? Where the gifted son of a greengrocer softly, delicately, lifts the ball into the top corner from a free kick?

The sixth then? Where Netzer again, starts a move from the edge of his box. By now he is being peremptorily dismissive of the ball. It is revealing to note that during the genesis of the attack, certain Foals players move into space, pass and receive the ball, without actually looking at it. It is football from the gods. But which God was Netzer?

There is a Roman god called Summanus who represented the uncanny and the awe-inspiring – how about him? Netzer actually looks as if he finds the ball’s worship of him tedious, summarily exiling it to an onrushing Heynckes with a glorious push from the outside of his right foot. Yet it is only a temporary banishment. Heynkces runs onto it, knowingly turning his head several times in the belief that it will be time for the sacrifice soon, and eventually squares it. Netzer with nothing better to do than score, simply nudges ahead of the helpless defender – nullifying a man steeped in the dark arts of catenaccio – and executes the ball over the keeper.

He doesn't celebrate this time, he simply lifts his head to the other Gods and their heavenly sovereignty above, merely in order for them to confirm they have seen his offering. This footage makes you weep with joy and wonder. A watching Matt Busby, in attendance that fateful night, shook his head and simply declared, “There is no cure against this Mönchengladbach side”.

You feel like hoarding it for yourself, greedily feasting on it the next time you hear the overhyped strains of Zadok the Priest, but you know there are other believers out there who you need to share the secret with. Seek it out. Borussia Mönchengladbach v Inter Milan. To paraphrase the title of a great cult football book: It is the best football you never saw.

Gladbach proved the original result was no fluke, a mere 72 hours later. A then league leading Schalke 04 team that would go on to finish second in the Bundesliga with fewest goals conceded, came to Mönchengladbach. Their keeper Norbert Nigbur (:nervous:) hadn't let in a goal in over 550 minutes and presumably came to regret his pre-match comment of "We're not Inter".

They weren't. Inter had scored, but Schalke lost 7-0. Schalke's vaunted defense was breached after just 4 minutes and thirty minutes later, Nigbur had already conceded five goals – as many goals as he had to concede in the eleven previous games! Netzer reigned supreme and dismantled the Schalke side at will, just as he had toyed with the catenaccio defense of Inter's 3 days earlier. A Schalke team featuring Norbert Nigbur (rated as the best goalkeeper in Bundesliga that season), Klaus Fichtel (rated as the best defender after Beckenbauer), Herbert Lütkebohmert (rated as the 2nd best midfielder after Netzer) and Erwin Kremers (rated as the best forward).

How must it feel to live the rest of your life knowing that your life’s work has already peaked all in the space of one week?

And yet.

EURO 1972

Netzer also played in Germany’s ground-breaking 3-1 victory at Wembley that same year in a performance that caused the cultural critic of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Karl Heinz Bohrer, to write in an essay the immortal words, “Netzer came from the depths of space”. Unsurprisingly, the chief architect of England’s overthrow in one of the greatest classics of European International football was Netzer. Sitting deep with Beckenbauer, the players prompted forays, pulling England players out of place, finding time and space with vision and flair.

Many must have wondered just what the Germans were doing when Netzer dropped into defense and Beckenbauer stepped into midfield or why their wide players didn’t just hug their flanks but came inside and dropped back. It was Netzer and Beckenbauer’s blind understanding that was at the heart of Germany’s wonderful performance, the two combining a total of 20 times in the match. Germany were practising the kind of total football that most became familiar with two years later thanks to Johan Cruyff and the Netherlands. But on that day it was Germany that was capturing the imagination of the football world.

“The magnitude of our performance,” said Beckenbauer, “was really just like a dream. I have never shared in a finer West German performance. Everything we wanted to do, we did. The moves, the idea and the execution all happened”. Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Sepp Maier, Jürgen Grabowski, the young Paul Breitner and Uli Hoeness equalled a litany of greatness. But without Netzer orchestrating, without their Karajan, they were far less than the sum of their parts. It has been argued the day England ceased to be world champions wasn’t in stultifying Monterrey in Mexico in 1970. It was at Wembley in 1972. (You could argue that English football at that level has never really recovered).

As the great Austrian conductor Karajan himself once said: “If you start with almost nothing, people concentrate much more on hearing you. Then when the outbreak comes, it makes a far greater impact.”

Before 1972, West Germany had failed to win on the European stage since their single success in the Miracle of Bern in 1954 aided, as every German knows, by ‘Fritz Walter weather’ – but by God, they made up for it afterwards. Günter Netzer said of that team, “As far as beauty, our football was unique”.
 
Last edited:
CONTINUED....

One more game. Perhaps the defining game of Netzer’s career. It all depends on if you like Roy of The Rovers, albeit a less altruistic one.

The 1973 German final was Netzer’s last game before moving to Real Madrid. However, Weisweiler, cautious of the 28-year-old’s fitness and commitment, and already planning for the next season leaves him out of the starting line-up with Herbert Wimmer as central midfielder and team captain. Netzer simply nods his head imperceptibly and muses out loud: “That’s a courageous decision”.

During the first half, the Foals fans at Düsseldorf’s Rheinstadion sung for Netzer to be brought on. Weisweiler then has a change of heart and told Netzer at half-time he would play in the second half. Netzer, furious with the snub, and ever the iconoclast simply refused, claiming “They are doing just fine without me” and sat brooding.



Only in extra time of the dramatic final against rivals FC Köln with the score poised at 1-1 did Netzer then proclaim himself ready to join the game, theatrically removing his training top proclaiming to Weisweiler: “I’ll play now”. What was to unfold in the next minute only added to the Netzer legend.

As extra time is about to commence he trots nonchalantly onto the pitch, blond locks rising and falling with his stride, amidst a phalanx of loitering reporters, cameramen and players, and waits to take the kick off.

Once the uninvited melee clears and extra time commences, immediately the ball is drawn to him, just outside the centre circle. With an instinctive feint and change of direction that buys him a crucial yard of space from his onrushing opponent, he powers between the lines. He plays the ball through to a teammate whilst continuing his run. The ball is then fed perfectly through into the box for Nezter to run onto. The next part is crucial.

If one actually pauses the video just before the shot, Günter Nezter looks like he is about to fall down. It appears that in running onto the ball he has tripped over. Someone unfamiliar with the goal would reasonably surmise by looking at the freeze frame that the forward would not only fail to score, but would be lucky to stay on his feet. Netzer did neither.

Disguising his stumble in an instant by simply allowing the ball to run across him, he lifts a strong shot into the top corner of the goal to the keeper’s right-hand side. Only someone with such intuitive balance and footballing intelligence could perform an implausible act such as this. No wonder Netzer celebrated with such unrestrained joy – even if his celebratory leap into the air is effortless. The strike won the German Cup for the Foals. The goal cemented his love by all Foals fans and countless other Germans. Not for nothing is he still known by many today as ‘Son of God’.

Netzer himself claimed “I hit the ball incorrectly as I stumbled. The goal was an accident”. Germany didn’t care. His strike was still voted goal of the season. Netzer enigmatically stated of the day, “No man should be allowed to be so bold”, adding, “That was the greatest happiness in my life on the football field”.

Later he won La Liga twice with Real Madrid – of course he did.

With his long blonde hair immortalised by students of fashion as well as students of football, with his unforced genius in finding space – his and his team mates space – through exuberant movement and extravagant passing that was never wasteful or self-indulgent; and with the inherent flair that presented itself through audacious goals, Günter Netzer did evoke the contradictory spirit of the Gods.

His technical accomplishments, his football intelligence, his thoughtful analysis of the numerous options available to a player – available to a gifted player, or to a renegade player at least – at any given split second on the football field, and his uncanny and awe-inspiring ability to execute them perfectly, left him immune to contrived, soulless football.

Paul Breitner said:
Günter Netzer was at the height of his potential. In my first year at Real, he played like I’ve never seen anybody else, except Franz Beckenbauer perhaps. Günter’s leadership on the pitch was absolutely gigantic, superior even to what he did for Germany in 1972 and 1973

Germany manager Helmut Schon said:
He was a master at changing the pace of the game. He would spray long passes over 40 metres, play direct, hit short or long balls and show a phenomenal awareness of distance.


John Giles said:
Günter Netzer of Borussia Mönchengladbach was a top class midfield player, quite a tall lad, more brilliant than Wolfgang Overath who had a workmanlike style. He had destroyed England at Wembley in 1972, running riot in a performance that suggested that there were great things ahead of him as West Germany's main man. I played against him, again at Wembley the following year, in a friendly match to celebrate the accession of Ireland, Britain and Denmark to the EEC. Netzer was again, outstanding.

...

There was Lothar Matthäus, a typical West German player of the 1980s, fit and very effective as the best German players had always been, but not quite in the same class as a Günter Netzer. Ouch :lol:
Giles also has him in his Dream XI - Casillas, Carlos Alberto, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Maldini, Jairzinho, Xavi, Netzer, Iniesta, Messi, Pele

del Bosque said:
He (Zidane) is perfect He has it all. He has the ability that Netzer had, that even if he were surrounded by rivals you could pass him the ball knowing he would control it, shield it and not lose it.

Ray Clemence said:
Netzer was at his best, he just ran the show and I very rarely remember us getting out of our own half in the first half

Belgian football writer Rene Marien for kicker said:
The King With The Long Hair!

Hitherto people still talked about the unforgettable World Cup semi between West Germany and Italy in Mexico, since a few days football fans in Belgium also talk about the magnificent game between Borussia Mönchengladbach and Bayern Munich. Before the league game between Beveren and Standard Liege one day after the Gladbach and Bayern encounter, I met Beveren’s vice president who greeted me with the words: "Yesterday I witnessed an incredible game in Mönchengladbach. To me, that was a football festival which I will never forget." What stood out most for me was the unconditional devotion to offensive football of both sides, the high pace right until the last minute and the commitment of the 22 players.

I admired Bayern for the way they kept on fighting after being down 0-2, to level the score. In Belgium, almost all teams resign after being down by two goals. The players usually already think about the next game, as nothing can be won in that game anymore. In Mönchengladbach, there was constant, uninterrupted attacking, not only by the forwards but also by the defenders. There actually were no forwards or defenders, only players that tirelessly stormed forward and then rushed back again. Nobody could stall to catch some breath during this incredibly paced game. Of all players, Günter Netzer impressed me the most. The Belgian football fans too could not praise Mönchengladbach’s skipper enough. He moved like a young god with long blond hair, fast and elegant, thirty, forty yards, only to address his very accurate passes to his teammates in a flawless and astute way.
 
Last edited:
Playing Style

Many seem to have a warped view of Netzer's gameplay (including me some time ago) and tend to classify him as a languid and phlegmatic #10, who was a static presence - in line with most classical #10s. That term itself carries with it several unfavourable connotations, which I feel do tends to plague Netzer more often than others. Slow, rigid, 'luxury player', ineffective on the counter, inadequate in the face of physicality, being marked out by any competent DM and worst of all, needing the midfield to spoon feed him the ball to work his magic.

Let me start of by saying, yes, Netzer was an elegant playmaker, class personified, relied on others to do the heavy lifting BUT he was explosive, vertical, powerful and sturdy as feck. He was not your average classical #10 who dilly dallied on the ball - a trait that even the best of playmakers tend to possess. Netzer wasn't positioned behind the striker but in central midfield as he loved to have the play in front of him so that he could ideally utilise his vision. He wasn't a playmaker who would have been peeved off at forwards individuality but rather someone who actively encouraged it. He wasn't your typical playmaker who loved to hog the ball, expecting, nay demanding everything should go through him, playing those one-twos ala Xavi etc. What Netzer really was about was pure directness and fiery football. Netzer was the anti-thesis of a ponderous playmaker, needing things to revolve around him, dictating play, but rather he was a high octane playmaker who let the play 'flow' through him and was more of a 'dispatcher' as opposed to a 'dictator'.

Do not get me wrong, he was the heartbeat of the team, at the center of everything and as stated before, he controlled the e̶b̶b̶ and flow of the game (ebb, what ebb? Netzer would probably ask) but his uber-direct play meant that he was a different beast to most other playmakers. Whilst most of his fellow playmaking contemporaries would thrive in a specialised and organised system, marshalling play, Günter Netzer actively revelled in utter chaos. Netzer was the epitome of the phrase 'Onwards and forwards'. His vision was unparalleled and given his direct and vertical gameplay, coupled with his stunning repertoire of passes, Netzer was absolutely relentless at driving his team forward. One can appreciate this insatiable drive in just about every facet of his game-play - his barnstorming rampages forward, incessant in between the line passing, his steady stream of sumptuous long-range forward balls and his vertical one-twos and mind-boggling combination plays.

That is not to say he was recklessly charging forward or trying to force forward passes which weren't on, Netzer himself acknowledged the need to stem play every now and then "Weisweiler wants no hold barred attacking football for 90 minutes. I think you should take the pace out of a game when it's called for". However, it's fair to say Netzer was an extremely forward oriented player but not to the extent that he was reckless.

How does one even deal with an eclectic playmaker who is hell-bent on driving his team forward? Someone with equal measures of pace and power, built like a tank, allied with brilliant ball control and deft touches, empowering him to go raging forward like a man possessed; capable of unlocking defenses with an effortless ball or wreaking havoc on the opposition by bypassing the entire midfield with his flawless between the line passing, or hoodwink befuddled markers with a deft turn or a dazzling one-two.

You can gauge the greatness of an exceptional playmaker just by the impact that they leave on their entire team's playing style and psyche, and it's fair to say that in the Gladbach and Germany 1972 sides, the inimitable qualities of Netzer were deeply ingrained - fluid, incisive and exhilarating. It's really hard to describe those phenomenal vintages, but the highest praise that I can give those teams is this - I never thought a side would come close to the ground-breaking football that Cruyff's Ajax & Netherlands played but Netzer's teams came closest to them. I'd go as far as saying they were even more euphoric.




0.04 (Passing & Goals)
12.39 (Dribbles & Rampages Forward)
18.27 (In Between the line passing)
21.25 (Spreading Play)
23.37 (Combination Plays - Basically an excuse to cram as much footage of the 1972 German vintage as possible)
29.47 (A little of his defensive work)

I've made a compilation video of Netzer to better portray his inimitable style, hope you guys enjoy it. There isn't much available of him (esp at his zenith) on the net, so I've decided to make it more comprehensive and in depth. I'm not good at this video editing malarkey so it's not as flashy as most other compilation videos but it should be worth a watch (watch it on mute if the fragmented audio annoys you, although it should be better after the first few minutes). I'd suggest downloading it or watching it asap, as I fear it will be taken down sooner or later for the inevitable copyright infringements.
 
Last edited:
Knew most of it, but still a fascinating read, thanks! Love your write-ups.

And the compilation is blocked by UEFA :D I feel for you, I really do
 
So I've filed a dispute for that vid which should give it a few days before it's taken down, so try to watch the video as soon as possible, if you can. Better still, download it, so that you can watch it at your own leisure.
 
So I've filed a dispute for that vid which should give it a few days before it's taken down, so try to watch the video as soon as possible, if you can. Better still, download it, so that you can watch it at your own leisure.

I submitted a report claiming copyright infringement so it will be blocked again immediately :angel:
Just kidding
 
Is Netzer one of the greatest German players ever?
 
@Joga Bonito @Aldo

I've submitted our write up etc. match can go up whenever. I'll be a bit behind with the time zone, but @Pat_Mustard may be around for the start, if not, I'll just jump in when I get up and gotten my daughter fed etc.

Good luck!

I should be around for most of the morning, although Joga's almost made me want to vote for him with that epic fecking Netzer write up :lol:
 
I submitted a report claiming copyright infringement so it will be blocked again immediately :angel:
Just kidding

:lol:

@Joga Bonito @Aldo

I've submitted our write up etc. match can go up whenever. I'll be a bit behind with the time zone, but @Pat_Mustard may be around for the start, if not, I'll just jump in when I get up and gotten my daughter fed etc.

Good luck!

Already sent most of my stuff yesterday, will finish it in a few hours and then we can start whenever you and Pat are fine with it.

Is Netzer one of the greatest German players ever?

Yes, he is considered as their greatest playmaker ever and also as one of their best players of all time. In fact even @Balu had him in his all time Geman XI. Netzer was the star of the Gladbach side which is considered one of the greatest German club sides ever and a side that went toe to toe with Beckenbauer, Maier, Breitner & Müller's Bayern, winning two Bundesliga titles. He was also the best player in the Germany 1972 side (considered to be Germany's greatest side ever, even when taking the '74 WC winning team into consideration) and was the standout player of the Euro 1972. Unfortunately he doesn't get the credit he deserves as he was just rather a wee bit unlucky in the WCs and European Cups.

He was injured for the 1970 WC and he left Gladbach after falling out with manager Weisweiler in 1973. He didn't have a great debut season at Real (who quite frankly put, used him wrongly) and he also pissed off Schon, the German manager, since Schon had said every player must be playing in Bundesliga to start in the 1974 WC team. He also directly didn't inform Schon of the decision to move to Real and this angered him even further apparently. Schon also preferred the more industrious Overath but if circumstances had been good for Netzer (no injuries or falling out with Gladbach manager and had stayed with Gladbach), I honestly think Netzer would have started the 1974 WC after that blistering 1972 Euros that he had. It's fair to say that the team would have probably performed better with him in it but squabbles over bonuses pay-out, tough training camps etc played their part in Germany's initial poor performances too.

In the European Cup, he gave plenty of brilliant displays, tearing apart Facchetti's Inter Milan and playing a blinder against Beckenbauer's Bayern for Real in the 1975 semi-final, 2nd leg. However, the first match unfortunately scrapped due to a can being thrown onto the pitch and in the second instance Müller's deadliness just gave Bayern the win out of nowhere (it was a fairly even match which was decided by Müller in brutal fashion). Also played a blinder in the UEFA Cup final 1973 but they just lost out to Liverpool after a tactical blunder by the manager in the first leg. All in all, he genuinely showed his pedigree on the biggest stages but just was a bit unlucky not to win an European Cup or to be part of the 1974 WC winning team.

Anyway judge him for yourself and if possible try to watch the video above or better yet, full games of him playing for Germany 1972. It was nothing short of sensational. Always thought Balu was exaggerating a bit when he said that team was one of the most entertaining and free flowing sides in history but he really was spot on with that. It's a crying shame that there isn't much available of Netzer's Gladbach though, who by all accounts were even more stunning to watch.

I should be around for most of the morning, although Joga's almost made me want to vote for him with that epic fecking Netzer write up :lol:

:lol:
 
Last edited:
In fact even @Balu had him in his all time Geman XI.
That little 'even' in there is a bit irritating. I've been a Netzer fanboy singing his praises on the Caf long before you came around ;).

It might be a bit odd because he was the star for Gladbach in the rivalry with Bayern and - way more annoying - the brains behind Hamburg's rise to the top in the 80's as their director of football, but he's such a wonderful, honest character and was such a joy to watch. Could never not give him the credit he deserves.
 
That little 'even' in there is a bit irritating. I've been a Netzer fanboy singing his praises on the Caf long before you came around ;).

That 'even' was more about 'even Caf German expert Balu has him in his team so it's credible and not just me trying to hype him up' sort of way:lol:.
 
Last edited:
Good god, that Netzer writeup! :eek:

Insert Citizen Kane.gif
 
@Joga Bonito, thanks for sharing those write up on Netzer.

I got a question, Can Netzer and Schuster play in same team? are they both played in same position?
 
Fantastic stuff there @Joga Bonito !
Good god, that Netzer writeup! :eek:

Insert Citizen Kane.gif

Cheers.

@Joga Bonito, thanks for sharing those write up on Netzer.

I got a question, Can Netzer and Schuster play in same team? are they both played in same position?

Most certainly with the younger, direct and dynamic Schuster. Not so much with the later more dictating Schuster. Ideally you'd want powerful, direct and all-round midfielders alongside Netzer (Neeskens, Tardelli, Breitner etc), more so than the sophisticated ones such as Giresse, Iniesta etc and a Rijkaard rather than a Makelele behind him.

You can see how he encourages the players around him to be direct and always sets up on great 1v1 situations against isolated opposition players. The more vertical, dynamic and direct the players around him the better. Ironically enough I could see him working well with the likes of van Hanegem and Coluna but somehow his time with Overath will obviously leave question marks. He never quite got on with Overath on the field as he did with Beckenbauer for some reason. Probably because Schon tried him in a midfield duo in a 4-2-4 alongside Overath which was never going to work.