40s Draft Final: Gio&Theon vs Joga Bonito

[Theon]

Yep, I agree with that - largely. Which is why I said, above, that IF Joga wins the mythical midfield battle too convincingly, Gerson will be rendered useless. It is by no means certain this will happen, however- Wimmer and Ball are energetic more than anything. They're not defensive power houses, and none of them will take out Gerson in terms of tracking him like a shadow. The advantage Joga has is twofold: a) numerical, b) energy/tenacity wise. You have one player displaying those characteristics in the middle - he has two. It's as simple as that, really. He CAN, in theory, limit Gerson's influence greatly by overcrowding and hassling him - you can NOT, as I see it, do all that much to shackle Netzer.

I never said we would shackle Netzer and in my opinion there was very little hyperbole coming from our side.

In terms of what you've said I think the following points are relevant:

• In theory is it possible that he could shackle Gerson if he dedicated Wimmer and Ball to do the job? Possibly, even then I'm not sure it would work - players like Gerson, Pirlo, Scholes are in general very hard to pressurise into making mistakes.
• In reality they aren't going to be pressuring Gerson to some extreme extent - because they have the best player of all time to contend with in the #10 position. If Joga says to Wimmer and Ball to focus on pressuring Gerson then by all means they may shackle him to a certain extent (as I said above though, I don't actually think they would be able to) but this isn't what is happening. When Gerson drops towards the halfway line to pick the ball of Moore and Figueroa, I can't see any rational way that Wimmer is going to be pressing him given that Pele would be left free.
• Ultimately the point there is that IMO there is absolutely zero chance that Joga could quell Gerson whilst also doing any sort of defensive job on Pele.
• Then you have the nonsense about Ball tearing Anczok a new one... Joga actually listed it as one of the biggest mismatches on the park.
• So we now have a Gerson who is being shackled by a Wimmer with a rampaging Pele to contend with and an Alan Ball who's spending half the game trying to dribble down the right wing.
• Gerson is arguably the best deep lying playmaker in the history of the game and I genuinely can't see any way he would be shackled here - better players have been unable to do it even without the factors that have been highlighted here.

 

[harms]

Gerson is arguably the best deep lying playmaker in the history of the game

Hype much?

 

[Joga Bonito]

They're not defensive power houses, and none of them will take out Gerson in terms of tracking him like a shadow. The advantage Joga has is twofold: a) numerical, b) energy/tenacity wise. You have one player displaying those characteristics in the middle - he has two. It's as simple as that, really. He CAN, in theory, limit Gerson's influence greatly by overcrowding and hassling him - you can NOT, as I see it, do all that much to shackle Netzer.

Exactly this. In fact the same thing occurred in their defeat to Argentina prior to the 1970 WC.

Defeat at home to Argentina, who had failed to qualify for the Mexico World Cup, pushed him closer to the edge, particularly when the Argentina defender Roberto Perfumo described Saldanha’s side as ‘the poorest Brazil team I have played against’. Wilson Piazza and Gérson had been swamped in the middle of the midfield, something for which Saldanha blamed Pelé, accusing him of having failed to follow his orders to track back and help. This was seen as insanity: criticising Pelé at all was bad enough, but to tell him to defend was heretical.

Now Pelé wasn't lazy by any means and could occasionally contribute by dropping deep, but actively asking him to take part in the midfield battle is just simply asking way too much of him. You always have the potential for your midfield duo to be 'swamped' by a midfield trio - esp one that features two immensely dynamic players against a midfield duo which features a static midfielder with a rather underwhelming game off the ball.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I never said we would shackle Netzer and in my opinion there was very little hyperbole coming from our side.

I know you didn't claim that, but I bring it up because it's a potentially crucial factor here - as it was in the s-f. Joga's game depends on Netzer being free to run the show - he says so himself. In both the s-f and here again, Netzer is largely left to his own devices - and that is, in isolation, playing right into Joga's hands.

I agree that Ball has been hyped up something wonderful, but his ability to function both centrally and out wide is genuine, Joga hasn't dreamed that up. He plays a custom role - one which he is extremely well suited for. That can't be denied, IMO.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Then you have the nonsense about Ball tearing Anczok a new one... Joga actually listed it as one of the biggest mismatches on the park.

The nonsense was labelling him as the world's left back for a couple of years between this mythical time period between Facchetti featuring in World Cup and European Cup finals at left-back during 1970-1972, and obviously Krol who was in the process of winning 3 consecutive league and European Cups from 1970. All this based on a few friendlies which happened in 1966, a Lev Yashin testimonial appearance and an Olympics win which quite frankly isn't a significant international tournament. There was a reason why Anczok was a 11th round pick whilst Ball was a 3rd round pick. It was one of the biggest mismatches on the pitch .

In reality they aren't going to be pressuring Gerson to some extreme extent - because they have the best player of all time to contend with in the #10 position.

So we now have a Gerson who is being shackled by a Wimmer with a rampaging Pele to contend with and an Alan Ball who's spending half the game trying to dribble down the right wing.

All whilst you gleefully ignore Eusébio' presence on the pitch, something which your midfield also needs to contend with for example.

I agree that Ball has been hyped up something wonderful, but his ability to function both centrally and out wide is genuine, Joga hasn't dreamed that up. He plays a custom role - one which he is extremely well suited for. That can't be denied, IMO.

I myself admitted this in post 114 but Gio simply forced my hand there by making ludicrous statements such as these.

If Ball can keep tabs on Anczok, he'll be doing well in that battle

Ultimately he'd go on to become the best left-back in the world for a couple of years between Facchetti and Krol. Ball just never got to that level.

Is Ball for all his qualities good enough to get the better of Anczok?

 

[Joga Bonito]

very little hyperbole coming from our side.

If Ball can keep tabs on Anczok, he'll be doing well in that battle

Ultimately he'd go on to become the best left-back in the world for a couple of years between Facchetti and Krol. Ball just never got to that level.

Is Ball for all his qualities good enough to get the better of Anczok?

Gerson will hold his own defensively. Especially with his proven foil Clodoaldo. He won't harry around chasing lost causes, but he'll be positionally disciplined and aggressive. He had no trouble dominating plenty of hard-working European midfields in 1970. Even amid the heat and altitude of mid-summer Mexico.

Gerson is arguably the best deep lying playmaker in the history of the game

tearing a world class left back up apparently.

dominating arguably the best deep lying playmaker in history

Indeed.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Anyway, the match is over and it's pointless debating over it to death. Let's just get the penalties up and move on with this draft. Looking forward to the sheep draft and don't want to linger on this one, as pleasant and educational as it has been.

@Gio @MJJ @Aldo

 

[Gio]

I myself admitted this in post 114 but Gio simply forced my hand there by making ludicrous statements such as these.

This is mental. What is ludicrous about that given they'd played each other in 1966 and Anczok came out on top. Your call that was a huge mismatch was what kicked it all off. I'd mistakenly assumed it would be a fairly even battle between the pair - Ball's standing as a good midfielder of his time who doesn't feature in any England all-time XIs - with Anczok a reasonable shout as Poland's best ever left-back. There's an argument that there's a bit more competition for the English right-midfield gig, but Ball seems to be well behind Finney, Matthews and Beckham in the consideration for that. Obviously the fact they'd met previously and Anczok came out on top lended further weight to that judgement.

 

[MJJ]

Doing the penos now.

 

[Theon]

Hype much?

Not really, he's certainly in that top bracket along with the likes of Falcao, Van Hanegem and Bozsik - the only one who is probably comfortably superior is Didi and even then a lot of that is based on reputation as opposed footage.

I'm actually surprised you've questioned that statement as I don't see much wrong with it given what Gerson achieved and the fact that he was the second best player in that Brazil 70 tournament after Pele.

 

[MJJ]

Joga:- OXXOO
Gio:-OOXXO

Spoiler

1. Muller - L
2. Pele - L
3. Cubillas - L
4. Jairzinho - L
5. Anczok - L

Keeper - Mazurkiewicz:

R
L
C
R
C

Aldo seems to be online (but inactive) and Gio seems to be offline .

Anyway just sending this to you if Aldo forgets to do it or is busy.

Law - C
Ball - R
Best - C
Eusebio - C
Netzer - L

Saves

Left
Left
Right
Right
Center

Send me 5 more guys, another sudden death.

 

[Joga Bonito]

What is ludicrous about that given they'd played each other in 1966 and Anczok came out on top.

Obviously the fact they'd met previously and Anczok came out on top lended further weight to that judgement.

I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring the context of that match or just pretending to ignore it, despite me replying twice to you on this matter. Will do so for a third time.

There wasn't just an element of tactical experimentation there. Sir Alf Ramsey KNEW that the 4-2-4 wasn't a great formation for his side and was ill-suited for his English side prior to the match, by 1964 itself to be exact.

Outright control, though, was only granted from the following May, so Ramsey faced two games in which he worked with the committee. In the first, they selected a W-M, and England lost 5-2 to France in Paris. That persuaded the committee to follow Ramsey’s wishes and switch to a 4-2-4 and, although that brought a 2-1 home defeat to Scotland, he stuck with the formation for most of his early reign.

It was May 1964 and a post-season tour of South America that was to prove key to Ramsey’s tactical development. England had hammered the USA 10-0 in New York - some revenge for Ramsey, having played in the side beaten 1-0 by the USA in Belo Horizonte in 1950 - but, exhausted by the effects of travel and scheduled to play Brazil just three days later, they were thrashed 5-1 by Brazil in their first game of a four-team tournament. A draw against Portugal followed, but it was the third game, against Argentina, that was crucial. Argentina knew a draw would be enough for them to win the competition, and so, the days of la nuestra a distant memory, sat men behind the ball, content to spoil, hold possession and see out time. England, like ‘a bunch of
yokels trying to puzzle their way out of a maze’, as Desmond Hackett put it in the Daily Express, were nonplussed. They dominated the play, but never
looked like scoring and, caught on the break, lost 1-0.

Over that summer, Ramsey rethought his strategy: system, he seems to have decided, was more important than personnel. Ramsey’s taciturn nature
makes it hard to be sure, but it is not implausible to suggest that the two years that followed represent a carefully controlled evolution towards winning the
World Cup.

The players he had been playing wide in a 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton and Peter Thompson, weren’t the kind to track back, and neither could Jimmy
Greaves nor Johnny Byrne, the two centre-forwards, realistically have been asked to drop in. George Eastham, who commonly played as one of the
central midfielders, was a converted inside-forward, and his partner Gordon Milne was no spoiler either.

Ramsey realised that although 4-2-4 was a fine formation for beating lesser sides, it was unsuitable for playing stronger opponents, and could leave even a markedly better team vulnerable if it had an off day. In short, the problem came down to the fact that while 4-2-4 was potent when you had possession, it didn’t help you get the ball in the first place. It is unclear when Ramsey’s thoughts first turned to Nobby Stiles, the combative Manchester United anchor, but what was apparent as soon as he selected him was that Stiles could not play in a 4-2-4.

So why did he play that set-up in that friendly against Poland, knowing full well that it was a poor set-up?

Early performances in 1965-66 were less impressive, but in December, England, with Stiles, Ball and Charlton in midfield and Roger Hunt, Eastham and Joe Baker up front, beat Spain 2-0 in a performance of overwhelming quality. Ramsey, realising just how potent his system was, immediately decided to place it under wraps. ‘I think it would be quite wrong to let the rest of the world, our rivals, see what we are doing,’ he told Brian James of theMail. ‘I think it is my duty to protect certain players until the time we need them most. This was a step and a very big one in our education as a football party. My job will be to produce the right team at the right time and that does not always mean pressing ahead with a particular combination just because it has been successful.’

Ramsey went back to a 4-2-4 for a friendly draw against Poland and a 1-0 win over West Germany. Geoff Hurst made his debut that day, and
immediately struck up an understanding with Hunt. A subsequent 4-3 victory over Scotland pleased the fans and the media, but it confirmed in Ramsey’s
mind what he already knew: that defensively the 4-2-4 was inadequate.

Like I've stated earlier to keep his wingless wonders set-up under the wraps and also he simply didn't want England to be at their best as the WC opponents would have been closely analysing the host team. So there is nothing absurd about that, except you using an experimental and a really pointless and meaningless match to show how Anczok got the better of Ball

.

with Anczok a reasonable shout as Poland's best ever left-back

And who does Anczok have as competition there btw, seeing as you felt obliged to list out the likes of Matthews, Beckham and Finney as competition for Ball.

 

[Gio]

Also now that the match is essentially over and we can engage in more balanced discussions, I'd just love to clarify the divisive topics in this match - Alan Ball and Denis Law, before moving on once and for all.


2) Now I will hold my hands up and admit that I perhaps did go overboard in trying to sell Law's work and presence outside the box in one of the older drafts and potentially undersold him as a centre-forward, since it was a total footballing set-up built around Cruyff and I was sporting Law as a inside right.

To be honest I wasn't massively arsed about the Eusebio/Law stuff. But it was one of those Antohan Nordahl situations where one thing was claimed in one draft and then an opposing thing in this one. So it had to be called on.

 

[harms]

Joga:- OXXOO
Gio:-OOXXO

Send me 5 more guys, another sudden death.

Come on, man, where's the suspense?

 

[Theon]

Indeed.

You need some more self awareness mate - I mean seriously, if you think saying that Gerson is arguably the best ever deep lying playmaker is comparable to the guff you were spouting about Pele being shackled by Wimmer, Gerson being hounded out of the game, whilst Alan Ball simultaneously leaves Anczok on his arse in the right corner flag then there's something wrong with you.

 

[Gio]

I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring the context of that match or just pretending to ignore it, despite me replying twice to you on this matter. Will do so for a third time.

Clearly Alf was experimenting with his tactics. But how far does that go? Does he tell Alan Ball not to work hard? Does he tell Ball to get skinned a couple of times just to keep everyone guessing for the finals?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If we go back to the fantasy versus reality problem, one could propose this:

While neither Ball nor Wimmer are overly impressive considered as a certain brand of DEFENSIVE midfielder, the pair of them are - in fact - very capable of playing something akin to a more modern pressing game (and Gerson will be vulnerable to that, that seems patently clear. It was the first point brought up against him when he was drafted: Against anything like a modern midfield, he will need protection beyond what he was offered in '70). The hounding and hassling aspect of their game is the key part here. So, combine that with what is undoubtedly a numerical advantage, and it isn't an outlandish idea that Gerson will, indeed, find himself "swamped" here.

I stress again that this isn't open and shut by any means, though. There is a dramatic difference between this team and Brazil '70 in terms of how important it is that Gerson/Clodoaldo don't lose the "midfield battle" too badly: Gio/Theon generally sport defenders on a completely different level, which can't be ignored.

The main problem, then, isn't really that Gerson is some sort of defensive liability - but rather that if he's shackled too much, Gio/Theon lose their only "true" playmaker. There is no Rivelino here. There is no quartet of number tens. That aspect of the '70 side isn't present here.

 

[Gio]

Come on, man, where's the suspense?

That was even less climactic than @green_smiley 's penalty efforts.

 

[Joga Bonito]

To be honest I wasn't massively arsed about the Eusebio/Law stuff. But it was one of those Antohan Nordahl situations where one thing was claimed in one draft and then an opposing thing in this one. So it had to be called on.

That's fair enough and I'd admit I was wrong there.

You need some more self awareness mate - I mean seriously, if you think saying that Gerson is arguably the best ever deep lying playmaker is comparable to the guff you were spouting about Pele being shackled by Wimmer, Gerson being hounded out of the game, whilst Alan Ball simultaneously leaves Anczok on his arse in the right corner flag then there's something wrong with you.

Ok mate

Clearly Alf was experimenting with his tactics. But how far does that go? Does he tell Alan Ball not to work hard? Does he tell Ball to get skinned a couple of times just to keep everyone guessing for the finals?

No he tells him to play in an alien outside-right position in an inadequate 4-2-4 set-up which he already knew was already a failure for England.

 

[MJJ]

Come on, man, where's the suspense?

Joga said he wanted it done quick.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Sent penos to MJJ

 

[Gio]

The Gerson debate's been done to death. As for his overall standing in the game, Anto's an authority on the South American game and said:

Not sure why you include Zico. As a CM it's one of Didi, Gerson or Falcao. They all have a good claim but you couldn't say any is head and shoulders better.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

MJJ and penos

 

[MJJ]

First Pen

Gerson shoots right

Spoiler

Joga's keeper stays in the center

Someone shoots left

Spoiler

Gio's keeper dives right

 

[MJJ]

Second Pen

Moore shoots in the centre

Spoiler

Joga's keeper dives left

Someone shoots center

Spoiler

Gios' keeper dives left

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Someone shoots left

 

[MJJ]

Third Pen

Figuero shoots left

Spoiler

Joga Keeper stays central

Someone shoots right

Spoiler

Keeper says central

 

[Gio]

Bring back @Skizzo and his back-heeled panenkas into the top corner.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Congrats @Gio @Theon on the well-deserved win. You guys constructed a great side.

 

[MJJ]

Fourth Pen

Clodaoda(is that a real name?) shoots right

Spoiler

Joga's keeper dives right

Someone shoots left

Spoiler

Gio's keeper is getting bored like me so stays central

 

[MJJ]

Doesnt this mean we win if its sudden death?

Could have told me earlier

 

[Joga Bonito]

Could have told me earlier

Bring back @Skizzo and his back-heeled panenkas into the top corner.

 

[MJJ]

Anyways if it really is sudden death then @Gio and @Theon win with their third straight shootout. Jammy Bastards.

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ..

 

[Gio]

Well we couldn't have done it without our boys Figuero and Pina Colaoda! Well played lads.

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ..

 

[Gio]

Anyways if it really is sudden death then @Gio and @Theon win with their third straight shootout. Jammy Bastards.

Does that mean we join the ranks of other jammy bastards like

and

 

[Theon]

Mr Shalamanov goes up to collect the trophy - He's had a great game!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well, I think we can all agree on ONE thing at least: Penalty shootouts have outstayed their welcome in these drafts.

 

[mazhar13]

Well done @MJJ on the penalties.