Sir Alf Ramsey's biography said:
Jonathan Wilson said:
Also you clearly haven't watched this video nor realise how Alan Ball functioned as an RAM, as too did Hoeneß for the Germany 1972 vintage playing alongside Netzer and Wimmer in midfield.
40s Draft Final: Gio&Theon vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
Also you clearly haven't watched this video nor realise how Alan Ball functioned as an RAM, as too did Hoeneß for the Germany 1972 vintage playing alongside Netzer and Wimmer in midfield.
A flavour of what Pele can do even amongst the highest of company.
If Pele leaves the Kaiser on his arse, then Schwarzenbeck, already overloaded getting a handle on Muller, may as well wave the white flag.
Sometimes we need to reflect on how major a talent Pele was: even rinsing an all-time great like Beckenbauer. That's the reason why he won 3 World Cups. Not just one like a few others on the field, but three. He always found a way to win, regardless of the occassion or quality of the opposition. Here he is, reunited in his glorious 1970 set-up but with the greatest goalscorer of all time, the purest penalty-box striker of all. It's not just the Kaiser you'd need there, but a defensive super-squad of all-time legends of the ilk of Maldini, Rijkaard and Figueroa. And probably Yashin and Buffon in goals, not just Nigbur.
If Pele leaves the Kaiser on his arse, then Schwarzenbeck, already overloaded getting a handle on Muller, may as well wave the white flag.
Sometimes we need to reflect on how major a talent Pele was: even rinsing an all-time great like Beckenbauer. That's the reason why he won 3 World Cups. Not just one like a few others on the field, but three. He always found a way to win, regardless of the occassion or quality of the opposition. Here he is, reunited in his glorious 1970 set-up but with the greatest goalscorer of all time, the purest penalty-box striker of all. It's not just the Kaiser you'd need there, but a defensive super-squad of all-time legends of the ilk of Maldini, Rijkaard and Figueroa. And probably Yashin and Buffon in goals, not just Nigbur.
Franz Beckenbauer said:
Pele said:
Bestie against Shalamanov, who has zilch defensive support and is isolated, with Best having the free Netzer to rely on for a consistent stream of unrivalled quality service. Not only that, he is reunited with the selfless Denis Law - The King, thus forming two-thirds of United's fabled holy trinity.
Here is Alan Ball boateng-ing one of the world's greatest left backs ever in the World Cup final, winning the MOTM and assisting the winner for Hurst. Even Marzolini didn't know what hit him. It's going to take more than Anczok to stop him here, that's for sure.
All that without even taking into account the support he will receive from one of the greatest RBs of all time in Carlos Alberto.
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Can you please not count my vote. I've tried to decide a lot and I can't really decide so I would prefer to retract it.
Sure thing. Just hope someone doesn't vote to engineer a draw and end up costing me the game though.
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Into injury time with the game in the balance and who's going to decide matters? Will it be Der Bomber or Alan Ball? Who is going to grab a last minute winner? Ball has a fine record on the highest stage, but how does Muller's compare?
- Scored in the 1974 European Cup Final
- Scored in the 1975 European Cup Final
- Scored in both of the 1976 European Cup Semi-Finals
- Scored the winner in the 1970 World Cup Quarter-Finals
- Scored two in the 1970 World Cup Semi-Finals
- Scored in the Euro '72 Final
- Scored in the 1974 World Cup Final
The stage is set, eh look what's going on here. Eusebio wants to join in on the fun too and Best is more than happy to share poor Shalamanov.
Bloody hell looks like Law wants to join in on the carnage on the right too. Just when Shalamanov and Anczok thought they had seen enough of Best, Ball and Carlos Alberto.
Bloody hell looks like Law wants to join in on the carnage on the right too. Just when Shalamanov and Anczok thought they had seen enough of Best, Ball and Carlos Alberto.
Sounds about right. Law and Eusebio drifting wide and away from the point of the attack, leaving nobody to occupy the centre-halves, reducing any threat in behind and giving Bobby Moore and Elias Figueroa complete freedom to control the penalty box.The stage is set, eh look what's going on here. Eusebio wants to join in on the fun too and Best is more than happy to share poor Shalamanov.
Bloody hell looks like Law wants to join in on the carnage on the right too. Just when Shalamanov and Anczok thought they had seen enough of Best, Ball and Carlos Alberto.
Elias Figueroa said:
If Moore is controlling the penalty box, the same way as he did in the 1967 match against Scotland and in the 1963 Rest of the World vs England match, then he could control it for all I care
.And no it was Stiles not Moore who shut down Eusebio
Why do you think that? Netzer is by do means a defence friendly midfielder and Ball is not a man-marking DM either. If he had Keane or Souness or such, it maybe a different equation, but with the midfield Joga sports, I think there's no snuffing out Gerson.
If you don't mind me asking, did you watch the Ball video? He was regarded as England's secondary ball-winner in midfield after Nobby Stiles in the 1966 World Cup winning team. His pressing and ability to make recoveries was brilliant to say the least.
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Its 10-11 to you?
Well played.
Willing to do the penalties? Don't want it to drag on like it did for the last penalties.
Going out for a bit, can do it when I come back if no one else is available.
Atleast he didnt change his vote like some cnuts
@harmsOk it looks like both green_smiley and Aldo are away.
Anyone else up to do the penalties?
Anyone else up to do the penalties?
Am back.
Sorry @Joga Bonito i swear I voted in this
It's all right, no worries. Did you vote right at the start of the match btw? Because, the vote was reset after some time since we couldn't see the identity of the voters, so Gio also lost some votes too.
Netzer and Germany played the ball at a ridiculous speed unheard of in those times. I think @Balu brought up the point that the German midfield (Lead by Beckenbauer and Netzer) passed the ball around at a similar speed to the 2010 world cup final. If any team is rewriting how a midfield battle goes, it will be the one with Netzer and Der Kaiser in it.
I would also withdraw my vote too mind. I am really struggling here with who would win.
Don't do that mate, just let it go to penalties. The match is over and it simply wouldn't be fair on Gio.
Can't do that. No changes after poll close.
Still waiting for gio.
Yes, I voted at the start, glad I'm not going mad
Why would I think what? That IF Gerson is snuffed out he would be borderline useless? Well, because it's blatantly obvious that he would. Look up the word “hypothetical” in the dictionary, I think you will find it enlightening.
Wimmer is obviously the designated DM I'm referring to, not Ball. Your reading skills are as suspect as Gerson's off-the-ball game.
As much as Gerson and Clodoaldo were able to run the midfield in the 1970 World Cup, I think that had more to do with the front 4 Brazil sported that forced many teams to pay more attention to them as well as Rivelino/Tostao helping out the midfield. The fact that Brazil played with 4 #10's in the team at the same time made them very dangerous going forward and forced the opposition to worry about them than Gerson.
In this case, though, Gio/Theon's team are facing an equally solid and strong team as theirs, not one that is worse. Thus, I expect Joga's midfield to make it tougher for Gerson to have an influence in the game. Also, whilst Pele is a #10, he was not much of a midfielder and more of a second striker, linking up play and breaking open defences with his close control, dribbling, movement, and quick passes. I'd have sided with Gio/Theon's team if they had another creative outlet helping Gerson + Clodoaldo out in relieving the pressure.
The reason I sided with Joga is not just because they have more energy, bite, and aggression. In every midfield area of the pitch, I see Joga's team outnumbering Gio's team. With the players Joga has, the pitch will be more crowded than normal for Gio's team to really take advantage of the situation. Also, regarding Netzer, I don't see him as a mercurial figure like Riquelme, else he wouldn't really be a midfielder.
The only way Gio could have won with the team that he had is if he had a counterattacking setup. Pele, Jairzinho, and Cubillas (especially Cubillas) are perfectly suited to that, and Gerson would be more useful off the ball in such a setup as well.
In this case, though, Gio/Theon's team are facing an equally solid and strong team as theirs, not one that is worse. Thus, I expect Joga's midfield to make it tougher for Gerson to have an influence in the game. Also, whilst Pele is a #10, he was not much of a midfielder and more of a second striker, linking up play and breaking open defences with his close control, dribbling, movement, and quick passes. I'd have sided with Gio/Theon's team if they had another creative outlet helping Gerson + Clodoaldo out in relieving the pressure.
The reason I sided with Joga is not just because they have more energy, bite, and aggression. In every midfield area of the pitch, I see Joga's team outnumbering Gio's team. With the players Joga has, the pitch will be more crowded than normal for Gio's team to really take advantage of the situation. Also, regarding Netzer, I don't see him as a mercurial figure like Riquelme, else he wouldn't really be a midfielder.
The only way Gio could have won with the team that he had is if he had a counterattacking setup. Pele, Jairzinho, and Cubillas (especially Cubillas) are perfectly suited to that, and Gerson would be more useful off the ball in such a setup as well.
Also now that the match is essentially over and we can engage in more balanced discussions, I'd just love to clarify the divisive topics in this match - Alan Ball and Denis Law, before moving on once and for all.
1) Now I mainly played this draft to get Netzer and watch more of him etc, so obviously my prime objective was to build the team, and most importantly the midfield around him. So much so that I sacrificed the chance to get two greater individuals in Johnny Giles and Nobby Stiles (best DM in the draft and a great as far as I'm concerned) for the more dynamic and direct Wimmer and Ball. Needless to say, I did take a liking to Ball after watching him more exclusively - he probably was the most dynamic and industrious midfielder I've ever seen alongside Neeskens and I really do mean it. Ball truly was like an irrepressible energiser bunny running at full pelt for the entire 90 minutes.
Granted, I might have oversold him a wee bit here but in terms of his tactical ability to function as a central midfielder and as an auxiliary winger (ala di Maria/Zagallo 1962 but just more midfielder-ish) he was up there with the best I've seen. If I'm not mistaken Sir Alf Ramsey's wingless wonders were the first ever to sport a narrow diamond-like formation, in an era dominated by the W-M and 4-2-4 set-ups etc, and Ball played a quintessential role in making that work - providing the legs in midfield, frequently winning the ball and functioning as a winger providing width on the ball. Really was asking a lot but he had the dynamism and unbelievable fitness levels to pull it off. This might be the thousandth time I've said this but really, do watch the video (only has 15 views so I know most of you aren't watching it) and you'd get what I'm trying to say.
Now obviously whilst he was a potent all-round package, perhaps his game lacked particular edges to it to truly elevate him to be a 'special player' or a great. He did have a sterling career though - playing a pivotal role (both tactically and individually) as a pesky 21 year old in the victorious 1966 World Cup campaign; starring for Everton in their fabled holy trinity after moving to the Tofees for a British transfer record sum, leading them to a league championship and being regarded as their greatest player ever after Dixie Dean; moving to Arsenal for a record transfer fee yet again and captaining them to a runners-up position in the league. So whilst I might have oversold him by repeatedly stating his performances in the WC 1966 almost as if they were the norm, they really did happen though (the nullifying masterclass against Marzolini and the WC MOTM performance against Schnellinger in the final) and I wasn't exactly fabricating them out of nothing.Your selling of Anczok and claiming Ball never reached that level did irk me a bit though.
I honestly don't know why he doesn't seem to be regarded higher but from what I've watched of him for England, Everton and Arsenal, he seemed like a mighty fine player and someone who perhaps deserves more plaudits. Anyway I would love to know what the old-timers have to say of him and his overall career really. Maybe it might be the fact that he (and England) in some ways peaked in 1966 and never reached that same level again, although Ball's body of work for Everton probably deserved more credit.
2) Now I will hold my hands up and admit that I perhaps did go overboard in trying to sell Law's work and presence outside the box in one of the older drafts and potentially undersold him as a centre-forward, since it was a total footballing set-up built around Cruyff and I was sporting Law as a inside right. Take nothing away from his all-round game and his passing/link-up ability etc though - they were truly brilliant. However, he truly was a versatile and crucially, a selfless player who honestly would have been right at ease at either the centre-forward or the second-striker role. Law's idol was di Stefano and if it were up to him he would be roaming all over the pitch and trying to influence play like the Argentine himself or Cruyff for eg - to some extent he was doing just that in the FA Centenary match in 1963 when the likes of Masopust, di Stefano, Kopa etc were on the pitch
. Oh and he was the best player on the pitch on that day, mind you. However, Busby made him more of an all-round goalscoring forward who had the freedom to exploit the channels but never neglected his spearheading duties (hold-up play, presence in the box, aerial ability, poaching etc) ala Seeler.
I already went into detail on that in the earlier post where you can see Law not being happy with that move, but it did pay dividends as Law became a goalscoring phenomenon. Also on the inside right/left stuff, it had a lot to do with United not strictly playing 4 at the back and more of a classic formation during that era. So Herd the more limited striker was made to play as the centre-forward and Law played as the inside right. Law did play as the centre-forward for a good chunk of games too but just more so in the inside right/left positions. In more modern (not really modern but you get my point) formations, such as a 4-3-3 you'd simply play him as the centre forward. For instance, Law primarily played as the centre forward for Scotland who more often than not played 4 at the back (at least from what I've watched of them) but had the freedom to drop deep.
So I really don't think he is the type of forward who needs a centre-forward ahead of him to function nor is he in anyway restricted in the centre-forward position. I'd say that as long as he has a certain amount of freedom to drop deep playing up front, he'd be perfectly fine at the centre-forward position, and he was whenever he played there. And even when dropping deep Law was always doing so in a facilitatory manner, aiming to aid the midfield, linking-up with players etc, and not necessarily impeding others in that area (Charlton for example). So I really don't quite think he is the type of player who requires a particular partner or a fixed position and I'd be equally happy in allying him with a Cruyff, di Stefano, Pelé, Eusébio, Maradona, Platini etc in either the centre-forward or second-striker positions. A real gem of a player, who was bloody intelligent and tactically as malleable as they come.
1) Now I mainly played this draft to get Netzer and watch more of him etc, so obviously my prime objective was to build the team, and most importantly the midfield around him. So much so that I sacrificed the chance to get two greater individuals in Johnny Giles and Nobby Stiles (best DM in the draft and a great as far as I'm concerned) for the more dynamic and direct Wimmer and Ball. Needless to say, I did take a liking to Ball after watching him more exclusively - he probably was the most dynamic and industrious midfielder I've ever seen alongside Neeskens and I really do mean it. Ball truly was like an irrepressible energiser bunny running at full pelt for the entire 90 minutes.
Granted, I might have oversold him a wee bit here but in terms of his tactical ability to function as a central midfielder and as an auxiliary winger (ala di Maria/Zagallo 1962 but just more midfielder-ish) he was up there with the best I've seen. If I'm not mistaken Sir Alf Ramsey's wingless wonders were the first ever to sport a narrow diamond-like formation, in an era dominated by the W-M and 4-2-4 set-ups etc, and Ball played a quintessential role in making that work - providing the legs in midfield, frequently winning the ball and functioning as a winger providing width on the ball. Really was asking a lot but he had the dynamism and unbelievable fitness levels to pull it off. This might be the thousandth time I've said this but really, do watch the video (only has 15 views so I know most of you aren't watching it
) and you'd get what I'm trying to say.Now obviously whilst he was a potent all-round package, perhaps his game lacked particular edges to it to truly elevate him to be a 'special player' or a great. He did have a sterling career though - playing a pivotal role (both tactically and individually) as a pesky 21 year old in the victorious 1966 World Cup campaign; starring for Everton in their fabled holy trinity after moving to the Tofees for a British transfer record sum, leading them to a league championship and being regarded as their greatest player ever after Dixie Dean; moving to Arsenal for a record transfer fee yet again and captaining them to a runners-up position in the league. So whilst I might have oversold him by repeatedly stating his performances in the WC 1966 almost as if they were the norm, they really did happen though (the nullifying masterclass against Marzolini and the WC MOTM performance against Schnellinger in the final) and I wasn't exactly fabricating them out of nothing.Your selling of Anczok and claiming Ball never reached that level did irk me a bit though
.I honestly don't know why he doesn't seem to be regarded higher but from what I've watched of him for England, Everton and Arsenal, he seemed like a mighty fine player and someone who perhaps deserves more plaudits. Anyway I would love to know what the old-timers have to say of him and his overall career really. Maybe it might be the fact that he (and England) in some ways peaked in 1966 and never reached that same level again, although Ball's body of work for Everton probably deserved more credit.
2) Now I will hold my hands up and admit that I perhaps did go overboard in trying to sell Law's work and presence outside the box in one of the older drafts and potentially undersold him as a centre-forward, since it was a total footballing set-up built around Cruyff and I was sporting Law as a inside right. Take nothing away from his all-round game and his passing/link-up ability etc though - they were truly brilliant. However, he truly was a versatile and crucially, a selfless player who honestly would have been right at ease at either the centre-forward or the second-striker role. Law's idol was di Stefano and if it were up to him he would be roaming all over the pitch and trying to influence play like the Argentine himself or Cruyff for eg - to some extent he was doing just that in the FA Centenary match in 1963 when the likes of Masopust, di Stefano, Kopa etc were on the pitch
. Oh and he was the best player on the pitch on that day, mind you. However, Busby made him more of an all-round goalscoring forward who had the freedom to exploit the channels but never neglected his spearheading duties (hold-up play, presence in the box, aerial ability, poaching etc) ala Seeler.I already went into detail on that in the earlier post where you can see Law not being happy with that move, but it did pay dividends as Law became a goalscoring phenomenon. Also on the inside right/left stuff, it had a lot to do with United not strictly playing 4 at the back and more of a classic formation during that era. So Herd the more limited striker was made to play as the centre-forward and Law played as the inside right. Law did play as the centre-forward for a good chunk of games too but just more so in the inside right/left positions. In more modern (not really modern but you get my point) formations, such as a 4-3-3 you'd simply play him as the centre forward. For instance, Law primarily played as the centre forward for Scotland who more often than not played 4 at the back (at least from what I've watched of them) but had the freedom to drop deep.
So I really don't think he is the type of forward who needs a centre-forward ahead of him to function nor is he in anyway restricted in the centre-forward position. I'd say that as long as he has a certain amount of freedom to drop deep playing up front, he'd be perfectly fine at the centre-forward position, and he was whenever he played there. And even when dropping deep Law was always doing so in a facilitatory manner, aiming to aid the midfield, linking-up with players etc, and not necessarily impeding others in that area (Charlton for example). So I really don't quite think he is the type of player who requires a particular partner or a fixed position and I'd be equally happy in allying him with a Cruyff, di Stefano, Pelé, Eusébio, Maradona, Platini etc in either the centre-forward or second-striker positions. A real gem of a player, who was bloody intelligent and tactically as malleable as they come.
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Much of this boils down to the reality versus fantasy issue we see in most drafts.
You can't expect - for instance - Gerson and Clodoaldo to have the impact they had against a flesh-n-blood Italy side (a tired one at that) in the final of a fantasy draft. There's a tendency in these things to ignore the "fantasy" part in a very peculiar manner, no doubt partly as a purely rhetorical device - but still. It makes very little sense given the premise of the thing.
You can't expect - for instance - Gerson and Clodoaldo to have the impact they had against a flesh-n-blood Italy side (a tired one at that) in the final of a fantasy draft. There's a tendency in these things to ignore the "fantasy" part in a very peculiar manner, no doubt partly as a purely rhetorical device - but still. It makes very little sense given the premise of the thing.
In general I think the point you're making is spot on - I say that with first hand experience losing to a Xavi/Iniesta midfield with Matthaus/Tardelli, and then in a completely different draft with Matthaus/Desailly/Zico.
In this particular match up though I don't actually think it applies, because we're not facing a Matthaus/Rijkaard midfield here - it's Wimmer and Alan Ball. As I said at the beginning IMO there is a clear quality differential between Clodoaldo/Gerson/Pele and Wimmer/Ball/Netzer - ignore anything else and the fact it worked so well in reality. They're just better footballers generally.
Relax. It was just an comment on the game.
Gerson is operating as a DLP here and unless Wimmer is operating quite advanced, I don't see how Wimmer would be the one snuffing out Gerson. Both will be operating deep in their own halves most of the time. Ball is the one who will have more freedom to come forward and he is on the same side as Gerson, so will be better placed to try and win the ball back from Gerson here. And I don't think Ball is a 'snuffing out' type player.
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Yep, I agree with that - largely. Which is why I said, above, that IF Joga wins the mythical midfield battle too convincingly, Gerson will be rendered useless. It is by no means certain this will happen, however- Wimmer and Ball are energetic more than anything. They're not defensive power houses, and none of them will take out Gerson in terms of tracking him like a shadow. The advantage Joga has is twofold: a) numerical, b) energy/tenacity wise. You have one player displaying those characteristics in the middle - he has two. It's as simple as that, really. He CAN, in theory, limit Gerson's influence greatly by overcrowding and hassling him - you can NOT, as I see it, do all that much to shackle Netzer.
It was a comment on my comment about the game. And a misinformed one, as you clearly didn't catch that I was describing a hypothetical scenario, not stating my opinion about what would - definitely, undoubtedly - happen.
It's the same Wimmer who was picked before Clodoaldo? Clear quality differential??? As much as I liked Clodoaldo there really isn't much between Wimmer and Clodoaldo with Clodoaldo coming a close second. In fact if you rate the defensive midfielders in this draft, I'd have Stiles in a class of his own, with Haan, Jansen, Pirri and Wimmer following in the next tier and then Clodoaldo, Roth and Benetti in the next rung. I'd have Netzer ahead of Gérson and fairly easily at that too. Both were fantastic playmakers, but Netzer trumps him, simply because of his eclectic skill-set and him being the better individual. Does Gerson have the explosiveness, pace, physicality or the ability to play those dynamic and intricate one-twos that Netzer possessed? Was he able to both function as a deep lying playmaker and a more adventurous presence on the pitch as Netzer was capable of? The only thing that Gérson rivals Netzer is in his long-range passing and ability to dictate a game and even there you'd struggle to give Gérson the edge.
Also it's the very fact that you are counting Pelé, a second-striker, in the 'midfield battle' whereas I have Ball, an industrious presence in the engine room, which speaks volumes about the state of the 'midfield battle'.
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