4 Failed Managerial Appointments in 8 Years
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At this point I don't think we need to change managers - I think Ole has the right way of managing the team. I think we need a very high quality defensive coach, and a very high quality DM. Finding these two is more important than changing the person at the top.
Finding a new manager every single time things go wrong is like going back to square one again repeatedly. If you are building something, and parts of it are working but others aren't, don't throw out all the parts. Improve on the areas of weakness. The fact that (last game against Liverpool excepted) we are improving as each game goes on shows to me that the manager is solving things on the fly, which is excellent. We're capable of bringing in world class players, great. Our attack is fantastic. Fix the defence, particularly the midfield. If your computer has an i9 CPU but is only running on 4GB RAM, you don't throw out the CPU, you upgrade the RAM. Fix the problems, and stop thinking every problem is the manager for crying out loud.
Finding a new manager every single time things go wrong is like going back to square one again repeatedly. If you are building something, and parts of it are working but others aren't, don't throw out all the parts. Improve on the areas of weakness. The fact that (last game against Liverpool excepted) we are improving as each game goes on shows to me that the manager is solving things on the fly, which is excellent. We're capable of bringing in world class players, great. Our attack is fantastic. Fix the defence, particularly the midfield. If your computer has an i9 CPU but is only running on 4GB RAM, you don't throw out the CPU, you upgrade the RAM. Fix the problems, and stop thinking every problem is the manager for crying out loud.
Most fans have no sense of realism. The just assume the club is bottomless pit of money and should just be buying a new team every summer to fit with the newest fad manager.
I think Zidane would have all the same issues Ole does, as in his Madrid deal basically relied on individual brilliance and had no style of play.
For me I think we need to find a way to see out the season, then get a manager in.
Yeah we need a defensive coach, alongside our set piece coach and let's also hire an offensive coach. Let them coach the team because we have a clueless manager who can't do his job but we shouldn't sack him because God knows why.
I don't think this is a failed appointment, it's merely a failure to let go at the right time. Ole has done a very good job of overhauling the squad on the whole, he just isn't good enough to manage the top heavy squad he's put together. A better manager who could play to the squad's strengths could do something with these players for sure.
Anyway, in short, Ole's time is well and truly up but he's not a failed appointment, we're at least an attractive prospect to take over unlike after the other 3.
Anyway, in short, Ole's time is well and truly up but he's not a failed appointment, we're at least an attractive prospect to take over unlike after the other 3.
Yep. No consistency/continuity there
There is no guarantee to get the right manager, no matter how you approach it. The problem is holding to a manager for way too long when it's clear they're not up for the job; it's just a big waste of time and resources.
United fans seeing the club at rock bottom and still have the arrogance to seriously say this. On top of that, it's just flat out wrong. There's a whole lot of variation of management between Ole ball and LVG philosophy. The results speak for themselves.
Yep. There's hardly ever again be another Ferguson or Wenger. Long-term now is probably 5 years or so, and that's if you're lucky.
Ole Ball and LVG I never compared the two?
The thing is - his own building blocks are shit too - Maguire, AWB. VDB and Sancho don't even play. Should we replace those too? Just buy and sell players until "it clicks". How much money would that take? He already wasted more or less the better part of half a billion. Does he need a billion pounds to fix HIS team? When does it end?
A manager that can't coach and doesn't know how to set up his team to be pro-active. The only thing he knows is sitting back and hitting teams on the break. The second he thought he could compete with the best he got exposed for what he is, immediately.
Relying on individual brilliance and having no style of play apparently wins you 3 back-to-back CL's and 2 La Liga titles against's Messi's Barca and atletico.
Just because we don't get rid timely doesnt mean the appointment was a failure. If we cut our losses even today with Ole, his tenure will be looked at fondly once the dust settles. Knowing us though, we'll keep him till we're mathematically out of top 4 or players full out rebel against him at which point, it's difficult to look at the long term past without considering the very shit near term.
Moyes was a failure because we set him up to fail. Realistically, that job was a poisoned chalice. Ageing squad, losing David Gill, Woodward on a power kick, in a position he was unqualified for, total lack of footballing structure and planning behind the scenes, terrible process for scouting players, barely any agent networks in-place.
LvG was a failure because he was only ever going to be a short-term appointment. Not every permanent manager has to stay for 10 years, but I think that should at least be the plan/hope going in.
Jose failed because the fans never really accepted/wanted him and I do feel he was on the way down as a manager when we appointed him. Did OK, but had so many chips on his shoulder it was impacting his ability to manage the club.
I wouldn't say Ole has failed. If he goes now, a new man can come in, salvage this season and then kick-on from a much better platform. If Ole hangs around, stinking the place out all season, then we could debate whether he leaves us in a better or worse position.*
One thing I would strongly urge anybody who doubts that our squad has improved to do is go on Wikipedia and search "Manchester Utd 2018-19"....look at that squad and tell me this current squad isn't a massive improvement with a straight face
LvG was a failure because he was only ever going to be a short-term appointment. Not every permanent manager has to stay for 10 years, but I think that should at least be the plan/hope going in.
Jose failed because the fans never really accepted/wanted him and I do feel he was on the way down as a manager when we appointed him. Did OK, but had so many chips on his shoulder it was impacting his ability to manage the club.
I wouldn't say Ole has failed. If he goes now, a new man can come in, salvage this season and then kick-on from a much better platform. If Ole hangs around, stinking the place out all season, then we could debate whether he leaves us in a better or worse position.*
One thing I would strongly urge anybody who doubts that our squad has improved to do is go on Wikipedia and search "Manchester Utd 2018-19"....look at that squad and tell me this current squad isn't a massive improvement with a straight face
You didn't compare the two. I mentioned those two because they're like two extreme sides of the coaching spectrum (seemingly no tactics vs rigidly micromanaging tactics). You claim Zidane just relies on individual brilliance, which is a comparison to Ole, and is a false one. Zidane had a structure and strategy too and could get that through to his players. Yes he allowed for individual creativity but that's a part of a bigger picture. Ultimately, Zidane got the results and Ole got nothing. You think any club can just casually three-peat the CL by simply relying on individual brilliance? I watched Madrid too in those times. They actually looked like they knew what they were doing consistently. That's a product of good coaching.
Moyes is ahead of us currently, for everyone attacking Moyes. Had the least time, spent the least money. Was given an old team with a lot of players not good enough.
Why does this only get spoken about when it comes to United? You don't hear anyone talking about how many managers Liverpool burned through on their way to Klopp, do you? No one says Real should never hire big name coaches because people like Benitez failed there. No one was saying Liverpool should just keep Kenny Dalglish or Hodgson in charge because they just need time and they'll be the next Shankly. Why do these illogical ideas get trotted out about us as if we are playing a different game in a different world?
Who the hell cares if we sack a manager for underperforming? It isn't a big deal, no one has perfect foresight and various managers and transfers fail all the time in the game, this is not something exclusive to Manchester United and should be no worse when it happens here than when it happens elsewhere.
Who the hell cares if we sack a manager for underperforming? It isn't a big deal, no one has perfect foresight and various managers and transfers fail all the time in the game, this is not something exclusive to Manchester United and should be no worse when it happens here than when it happens elsewhere.
Chelsea have sacked nearly a dozen managers since SAF retired. They haven't done too badly, have they? The idea of appointing a manager and waiting three long years to help him develop a proper footballing ecosystem is increasingly outdated in the modern game. No one has the patience to wait three long years, unfortunately.
I don't think there's any perfect system of playing or managing football teams. And especially with managerial posts, it is a "hit-or-miss".
But I like Chelsea's ruthlessness in this regard. Unless some team is lucky with Pep or Klopp, I think that ruthlessness is what United sorely miss at the moment. There are obviously exceptions, but a top manager in his prime already shows promising signs after the first year of management.
4 managers in 8 years is a silly logic, IMO. I'd have been happy if there were five or six already, assuming the team would not get any better managers than what we got. Of course, if there was a Guardiola, or a Klopp, or a Tuchel, along the way, we could have persisted with the same manager for several years.
We were too slow to sack Moyes, too persistent with Mourinho, and worse still, with Ole.
I don't think there's any perfect system of playing or managing football teams. And especially with managerial posts, it is a "hit-or-miss".
But I like Chelsea's ruthlessness in this regard. Unless some team is lucky with Pep or Klopp, I think that ruthlessness is what United sorely miss at the moment. There are obviously exceptions, but a top manager in his prime already shows promising signs after the first year of management.
4 managers in 8 years is a silly logic, IMO. I'd have been happy if there were five or six already, assuming the team would not get any better managers than what we got. Of course, if there was a Guardiola, or a Klopp, or a Tuchel, along the way, we could have persisted with the same manager for several years.
We were too slow to sack Moyes, too persistent with Mourinho, and worse still, with Ole.
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+1.
Chopping and changing is the way to go until we find the right fit but first we have to define what the fit is beyond 'winning things'.
You need a coherent plan based on what your current squad is, what sort of football you'd like to play and what the data says. We can't switch immediately from what we have now to a tiki-taka but if that's the way we wanted to go, we should've followed LVG up with someone with a similar school of thought.
So even if there's no guarantee of success, there has to be some coherent plan. Pep's going to leave City, they're not really going to go get Sarri to replace him for example.
Unpopular opinion and most likely not going to happen but I hope we retain him in some capacity in the club's upper management / recruitment team. The squad building we've done since Ole has come in has been excellent. He himself said he's more of a man manager / motivator than a coach. It's not unprecedented, but I'm blanking on the actual names that have been both DOFs and managers.
Almost always looking at the long term with a plan in mind. Even when we had to put bandaids in (with our striker situation for example), they were very effective.
I personally vastly disagree with your assessment of Zidanes Madrid, I never watched that team and went they look like a well-drilled team. They looked like a team with a lot of very experienced players and dangerous individuals capable of getting results in big matches. I'm not saying Zidance didnt do a great job guiding the team to 3 CL's that incredible. But i never watched Madrid and thought wow that's a really well-coached team.
Really the Zidane debate is going to go on until he goes to another club and we see how gets on there. Personally, I don't want United to be that proving ground.
We keep looking for the next SAF, but there will never be another SAF.
Moyes was a terrible decision and I'm still disappointed that SAF recommended him.
LVG was another terrible choice. I love him as a personality, but his methods were outdated. He was a big name hire in an attempt to recover from Moyes.
Jose was hired too late. He should have been hired in lieu of Moyes.
Ole was a great choice for caretaker, but a huge risk giving him the job fulltime. It was clear last year that lack of tactical awareness was a huge detriment. Sure, he gave the good vibes of DNA FC, but that's it. For all the talk of him being a good man manager, he absolutely is terrible at actually managing the squad and picking starting XI's. Although he's made some good moves in building the squad, he still pushes for terrible decisions like attempting to extend Lingard, not playing DVB but not letting him leave, same for Martial, Phil f'ing Jones, etc. Then complains he can't get a midfielder in.
Love Ole the player and with all his faults as a manager, I appreciate he gave it his best effort. It's just unfortunate that his best effort isn't good enough.
Moyes was a terrible decision and I'm still disappointed that SAF recommended him.
LVG was another terrible choice. I love him as a personality, but his methods were outdated. He was a big name hire in an attempt to recover from Moyes.
Jose was hired too late. He should have been hired in lieu of Moyes.
Ole was a great choice for caretaker, but a huge risk giving him the job fulltime. It was clear last year that lack of tactical awareness was a huge detriment. Sure, he gave the good vibes of DNA FC, but that's it. For all the talk of him being a good man manager, he absolutely is terrible at actually managing the squad and picking starting XI's. Although he's made some good moves in building the squad, he still pushes for terrible decisions like attempting to extend Lingard, not playing DVB but not letting him leave, same for Martial, Phil f'ing Jones, etc. Then complains he can't get a midfielder in.
Love Ole the player and with all his faults as a manager, I appreciate he gave it his best effort. It's just unfortunate that his best effort isn't good enough.
Completely agree, the problem is not sacking failign mangers, its the terrible appointments by Woodward who has no clue about football. Interesting that Newcastle new owners first move likely is a DOF, while City built a strong structure that could function regardless of manager. We have muppets in charge making terrible appointments. But that is no reason to stick with Ole who is just at this point embarassing himself, the club and the fans.
I wish I could understand why we gave OGS a further 3 year deal 3 months ago:
- Who would go for him? No really! With what we know for certain now and a lot of us knew back then regardless, who would go for him? Are Real Madrid and PSG going to headhunt him? Would the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia be wanting him for his Geordie sportwash exercise?
- Hes at his dream club anyway. That works against him in leveraging as opposed to the likes of Jose. You can easily lowball him just a year extension and he’d bite your hand off for it
- Why was it given considering the nature of the EL final and how we generally finished last season? We finished 2nd where one team had a defensive injury crisis like no other and another team had been handicapped with the failings of their previous manager for half the season
That’s because most if not all of their successful managers since Roman took over have won major trophies in their first season or even first few months (Jose, Ancelotti, Di Matteo, Conte, Tuchel) whereas every time we have hired someone in the last 8 years our successful spell lasted for only 1-5 games or something like that.
Sacking managers is not an art. Getting the timing and more importantly the next appointment right is one.
But this requires a board or owners who regularly follow the games and judge performances and results on a weekly basis. That’s why RM, Chelsea and Bayern get their appointments right more often than not.
Let's not do this, please.
He was given a team that had just stormed to the title and had a shot at a record points total going into the last few weeks of the season. And he took them to a 7th-place finish behind Tim Sherwood.
Being ahead of us right now is about as useful as Phil Brown's Hull being ahead of Fergie at the same stage in 2008.
Talking about 4 failed managers so far, think Moyes is a very good manager and he's proving it again at West Ham, but probably not good enough. Van Gaal had a great CV, came after almost reaching World Cup final with Netherlands, but was probably past it as we looked worse as his tenure was approaching his end. Mourinho, if it was a league with managers he faced in 2013-2016 period, I think he'd brought us title in that 2017/18 season. Reality is, as he came in, there was also Klopp, Conte, Pep, so a complete different level of PL to the one from few years before.
Ole's done a solid job until this season and it seems like he should have gone in May, as we've started regressing now. Not sure who's the right answer to our problems, is it Conte, Zidane or Ten Hag or someone else.
Ole's done a solid job until this season and it seems like he should have gone in May, as we've started regressing now. Not sure who's the right answer to our problems, is it Conte, Zidane or Ten Hag or someone else.
Our list of Managers since 2013:
Sir Alex Ferguson
David Moyes
Ryan Giggs
Van der Gaal
Jose Mourinho
Ole Gunnar Solskjær
Can’t wait to see us destroy the next manager.
Sir Alex Ferguson
David Moyes
Ryan Giggs
Van der Gaal
Jose Mourinho
Ole Gunnar Solskjær
Can’t wait to see us destroy the next manager.
Agreed.
I know its hard to look past the embarrassment yesterday, but at the start of the season pretty much everyone on here were giddy about the squad and it seemed most posters thought a proper league challenge was on the horizon
We need to sack Ole ASAP though, because even though hes built a good squad he has no clue on how to use it
Weird thread it's like the expectation you get it right once and then have a manager for 20 years. SAF and Wenger are exceptions.
You can still have decent success with new managers every few years. Typically you sack a manager when things are going wrong.
You can still have decent success with new managers every few years. Typically you sack a manager when things are going wrong.
Agreed. It's well known that Sir Alex took a back seat role in day-to-day training, having the likes of Queiroz and Meulensteen doing the lion's share, however there was never any doubt who was in charge come match day. Contrast Klopp orchestrating things from his technical area yesterday with our 3 stooges sat clueless in their seats. Completely out of their depth now.
Kinda twisted this fact.Ajax had 4 in 2 years until they found a winner in Ten Hag.
Not United though, you don’t know if someone’s a success until they’ve had 3 years and 400 million quid, cause “Fergie”
Bosz was bought out by Dortmund after his first season. Ended the season in 2nd (1pt. off 1st) and lost EL final (against us), so think he would have been given another shot even though they didn't win anything that season.
Keizer was the only one sacked out of those "four" (sacked after an early cup exit also trailing in the league (5pts. off PSV), having already failed not just getting into CL (lost QR3), but also lost EL play-off (to Rosenborg of all teams!!) so a fair sacking).
Reiziger was temporarily promoted as caretaker (was reserves manager at the time) for one game and went back to his role after ten Hag came (has since become ten Hag's assistant).
We'll do well to get ten Hag though, he's excellent. Would make Eredivisie fairer as well.
We're the only big club making such a huge deal out of changing managers. We do not have to worry about making it 100% right this time. It's just a waste of time and we will end up hiring nobody. Just look at every top club and see how many successful long term appointments they've had. We're not smarter than them. If anything, that kind of thinking will set us back even more. Just forget about another Fergie, it is not happening, it does not have to happen.
I don’t mention sacking in my post. Ok, they had 3 full time managers in 2 years.
Chopping and changing managers is the norm in the modern game. Not the rule, but the norm.
Why we got it wrong with Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole has been beaten to death here but suffice it to say that Fergie had the credibility to name his successor, Van Gaal was a bad idea all the way around no doubt about it, and Mourinho at least offered the hope of returned glory.
The hard one to crack open is Ole. He had no resume of cup glory whatsoever but he is a club legend and the permanent contract after the caretaker period made sense at the time. But the contact extension this summer will be a baffling decision historians will have a hard time explaining during this first decade after Ferguson's retirement. I completely understand we finished second in the PL but anyone with open eyes could see we badly underperformed relative to reasonable expectations. The time for the board to have been ruthless in its quest to improve performances on the pitch was right after the shambolic managerial performance against Villareal.
Why we got it wrong with Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole has been beaten to death here but suffice it to say that Fergie had the credibility to name his successor, Van Gaal was a bad idea all the way around no doubt about it, and Mourinho at least offered the hope of returned glory.
The hard one to crack open is Ole. He had no resume of cup glory whatsoever but he is a club legend and the permanent contract after the caretaker period made sense at the time. But the contact extension this summer will be a baffling decision historians will have a hard time explaining during this first decade after Ferguson's retirement. I completely understand we finished second in the PL but anyone with open eyes could see we badly underperformed relative to reasonable expectations. The time for the board to have been ruthless in its quest to improve performances on the pitch was right after the shambolic managerial performance against Villareal.
By all accounts the mood in the dressing room has been much better under Ole.
I see no reason to doubt that this is true.
But a major point against him is this (which you touch on too): one of the first things he highlighted, as a caretaker post José, was the need to get United back as the most hard working, energetic, "fight for every feckin' ball" side in the league. We haven't seen that on a regular basis - at all, sadly.
That part seems like pure talk/spin on his part.
Which is very damning.
Because it comes down to - ultimately - precisely the thing he could have going for him (man management, the ability to motivate his players, pushing them to give 100% all the time). We just haven't seen it (enough - not nearly enough). Far too often we've seen a team that obviously aren't 100% switched on.
All four managers were not good and cautious minded, it's as simple as that, let's stop acting like Mourinho or van gaal were in their prime when they arrived here, they were in a downward trajectory, moyes is bang average and has found his level at west ham and if you watch his matches against the big clubs he still has a poor record and a weak mentality, ole is is a nothing manager that has a track record of doing badly than good before taking over.
I feel sorry for van gaal though as he was saddled with Giggs as his coach with the experiment being that he was going to be groomed as our next manager because we have such an obsession with ex players and wanting to replicate another fergie length of reign in charge of the club.
Chelsea get it right so often is because they seize upon a new manager when they are at their peak or on the rise, we do the opposite.
I feel sorry for van gaal though as he was saddled with Giggs as his coach with the experiment being that he was going to be groomed as our next manager because we have such an obsession with ex players and wanting to replicate another fergie length of reign in charge of the club.
Chelsea get it right so often is because they seize upon a new manager when they are at their peak or on the rise, we do the opposite.
There's certainly a clear lack of structure and planning and that is the reason why you're stucked with Ole in the first place. So yeah, there's some planning needed in order to prevent situations like this where an average manager gets contract extensions out of nothing.
No one is expecting another SAF. The point is that we have not had reasonable success for a club of Man United’s stature & resources despite 4 managerial changes. This does not mean we need to stick with underperforming managers. On the other hand, it is also flippant to think that we will somehow find success if we sack enough managers. We need the right structure, the right people within the structure who are qualified to make good decisions so that we can return to the path of reasonable success.
I think you've answered the implied question.
Why do we not have success despite having been through multiple managers?
We're poorly run.
Moyes - In over his head, inexperienced. With time, he's proven he's an alright manager but his style is cowardly.
LVG - this man is a okay coach, was a shit TD in the past and we expected him to do both in a league he's never been in. He thought he could do it all too because he has a God complex.
Mourinho - Washed up.
Ole - No credentials.
The appointments weren't right and management didn't help out. LVG should have had a much stronger crop of academy graduates, he also should have had TD above him with a good transfer department. Instead we expected him to hand in a list and Woody working his way from top to bottom. Read that again. That's a joke of policy in modern football.
We've missed out on several good managers too. I really liked Tuchel's tactical nous at PSG and thought we should've sacked Ole for him when he became available (however harsh it may seem). And that's just a recent one. Why didn't we take Klopp, why aren't we going for Ten Hag now? etc, etc.
I don't disagree that we're poorly run but these managerial appointments could have literally happened to any club. It's easy to say in hindsight they were bad but most of them looked like at least 'ok' choices at the time. You could even make a case for Moyes. Even SAF was wrong on that one.
Most managers fail. 4 failed appointments is nothing.
Most managers fail. 4 failed appointments is nothing.