2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

VorZakone said:
Seems like Walz' military record is an attack point for Republicans, accusing him of stealing valor.
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They are trying to swiftboat him. Won't work given that he was in the military for six times as long as Vance and Trump famously got a deferment for bone spurs (no doubt from a highly credible doctor who wasn't paid off or anything).
 
Raoul said:
They are trying to swiftboat him. Won't work given that he was in the military for six times as long as Vance and Trump famously got a deferment for bone spurs (no doubt from a highly credible doctor who wasn't paid off or anything).
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If J.D. Vance had actually seen action it might be a little more effective, but of course he was in a Public Affairs section.
 
Mike Smalling said:
If J.D. Vance had actually seen action it might be a little more effective, but of course he was in a Public Affairs section.
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That's not a slight on Vance since a vast majority of people in combat zones are actually there in support roles from logistics, to IT, to housing, maintenance, contracting, medical etc, and don't actually do any fighting. What he's doing to Walz however is reprehensible given that the latter was in the military for 24 years to Vance's 4, and Walz's battalion actually did deploy to Europe (Italy iirc) in the early days of the Afghanistan war.
 
Apparently Trump has announced a press conference later today. Probably just some bullshit about the debate or his policies, but I give it a 3% chance that he has ditched JD.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Apparently Trump has announced a press conference later today. Probably just some bullshit about the debate or his policies, but I give it a 3% chance that he has ditched JD.
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He's desperate to reclaim the limelight, which I suspect will happen when he says something ridiculous today.
 
Raoul said:
He's desperate to reclaim the limelight, which I suspect will happen when he says something ridiculous today.
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True, but he proved with his latest appearance that not all limelight is good for him, so will be interesting. The more the momentum swings, the more desperate and vile he will get.
 
calodo2003 said:
Expound a bit on the last line of your post.
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As per my initial post that trigger interactions, her response to the protesters is not correct. She could:

After they shut up, having something prepared for a rally regarding what this sensitive policy? even if I don't agree. Something
Saying that is not the moment to discuss this in the rally in this sensitive problem. We are working on this yadayada
Something else

What you can't do when someone says something you don't like, is not having a response and see that the sandman is coming for you. Basically have nothing
 
Beachryan said:
VPs famously don't share major positions with Presidents, and agree to serve anyway.

You're clearly judging her policies before seeing them.
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Very famously. Sure you pick someone that doesn't agree with you to work with. They should pick a republican so they share as little possible

Also, Kamala didn't say ever anything about the conflict, right? I can't see where is she going with Palestine...Im in the dark
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Weird one from Rasmussen:



but...

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That’s not weird from Rasmussen, they’re notoriously Republican bias. I think it was said to have reduced a bit last cycle but that was only because the rest of the polling field also had an R bias and they weren’t so much of an outlier.
 
Pexbo said:
That’s not weird from Rasmussen, they’re notoriously Republican bias. I think it was said to have reduced a bit last cycle but that was only because the rest of the polling field also had an R bias and they weren’t so much of an outlier.
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I think the weird part is Trump +5 nationally but Harris +3 in Wisconsin. But that could be explained by incompetence, or different methods for running polls.
 
Raoul said:
Believe these may be two separate polling sources. As for the original Rasmussen, they usually skew about 2-3 points R so a 5 point Trump lead should entirely be within the margin of error.
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Is a "Scott Rasmussen" poll different from a "Rasmussen" poll? I know the guy left the company a fair while ago.
 
Laurencio said:
I don't know if policy disagreements are all that significant when there is a fundemental disagreement about the validity of democracy as a system of government.

The current Republican party is pushing an authoritarian political movement that rejects the principles of of liberal and neoliberal democracy that the US has been based on. The core issue that splits the two parties today is not policy, it is the political system itself.

Unfortunately that argument is too complicated for the electorate, most of which have no idea what a liberal democracy is, which results in a belief that this is about policy (back Ukraine vs not, tax vs no tax, progressive vs Conservative, abortion access vs ban, hawk vs diplomacy etc). Biden tried to make that point, but it just didn't stick and he just came across as a worried old man.

A lot of the "noise" around the election is concentrated around policy and value disagreements that are completely fair in a democratic system - but the most important difference is the fundemantal disagreement in how to run government, elections, presidential power, the international system and the role of the various branches of government.

In the US you have three main forces, two of which are driven by voters who haven't been helped by the neoliberal democracy model and one that fights for the status quo.

Two of them are in the Democratic party - progressive who want a return to classic liberal democracy and neoliberals or "moderates" who want to maintain the status quo with the belief that neoliberalism has secured US position as an undisputed hegemon. Within those two groups there are policy differences that put them left and right of centre - but there are almost no one arguing against the system. Within the Republican party the neoliberals have more or less been pushed aside by the authoritarian MAGA movement.

While the neoliberals and liberals all agree on principles about how the system is supposed to work - MAGA authoritarianism rejects those principles. As an ideology it is incompatible with liberal and neoliberal democracy. Therefore any disagreement on policy becomes essentially meaningless.

For instance; liberals and neoliberals argue about how much influence a president should have, MAGA pushes for unitarian monarchy. Liberals and Neoliberals disagree on specifics on abortion legislation, MAGA rejects the legislative branch. We see liberals and neoliberals disagree on who should vote and the structure of the electoral college, while MAGA rejects the very concept of elections.

How do you have policy discussions when faced with that?
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond so extensively. And I can agree with the exposition but IMO I don't think that "if you don't like me, you will have Trump" is not the way to go.

As you say there are fundamental differences and certainly comparing policies against your opponent is fair, valid and make sense. The correct way to go should be if you don't like my policies that are, these, those and that, lets compare it with Trump's policies that are these, those and that. That is difficult because is tiresome, that they resort to insults and stirring the shit pot? tough luck. If you are (pretending to be) better, you need to be better, be more presidential, expose the opposition besting them (shouldn't be that difficult). You can mix it with couch and dolphin jokes also. You can do everything. But just saying if you don't want me, you have trump is IMO recognizing that I am bad (or at least not that good), but Trump is worse. And that makes people lose faith in the election system, candidate quality and politics in general and they will end staying home and that favours ultimately Trump

And that is not exclusive of US, this happens in my country and in my limited observation, in many other countries. They don't focus on how good are they, how shit are the others and it ends being a protest vote every single election and that, IMO, is fundamentally wrong for a sane and healthy democracy
 
Pexbo said:
That’s not weird from Rasmussen, they’re notoriously Republican bias. I think it was said to have reduced a bit last cycle but that was only because the rest of the polling field also had an R bias and they weren’t so much of an outlier.
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Yeah. The national poll wasn't what I was concentrating on, rather what appeared to be a discrepancy between that and Harris' lead in Wisconsin. As @Raoul points out though, it's probably two different sources with similar names.
 
4bars said:
As per my initial post that trigger interactions, her response to the protesters is not correct. She could:

After they shut up, having something prepared for a rally regarding what this sensitive policy? even if I don't agree. Something
Saying that is not the moment to discuss this in the rally in this sensitive problem. We are working on this yadayada
Something else

What you can't do when someone says something you don't like, is not having a response and see that the sandman is coming for you. Basically have nothing
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So, you were discussing the one off interaction that occurred on stage? You realize that isn't policy? We will clearly learn at the convention the policy platforms.
 
calodo2003 said:
So, you were discussing the one off interaction that occurred on stage? You realize that isn't policy? We will clearly learn at the convention the policy platforms.
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Is not one off. Is the first off because is what republicans had been doing since 2016. And yes, is not policy. That is the problem I am not asking to expose point by point the policy, but more than "Trump is worse"
 
4bars said:
Is not one off. Is the first off because is what republicans had been doing since 2016. And yes, is not policy. That is the problem I am not asking to expose point by point the policy, but more than "Trump is worse"
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She responded to reckless in a manner that shut them up / a manner that engaged the rest of the crowd. The hecklers could have been griping about anything & it would have elicited the 'Trump is worse' line, it's not a response exclusive with pro-Palestinian protesters.

'Trump is worse' isn't policy, but it is handy to have in her quiver to use to shut down hecklera.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Yeah. The national poll wasn't what I was concentrating on, rather what appeared to be a discrepancy between that and Harris' lead in Wisconsin. As @Raoul points out though, it's probably two different sources with similar names.
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Why would you assume a poll result from one state could/would be extrapolated across a national poll that also considers 49 other states? Wisconsin has gone Democrat in eight of the past nine presidential elections.
 
The Firestarter said:
What's the unusual here ? It's Montana, is the expectation for the Trump to be larger or?
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Does there has to be anything unusual? Its just a poll, and its been a little while since last in Montana.

Harris polls better than Biden did, Tester, unfortunately, doesn't seem to get a bump.
 
Morty_ said:
Does there has to be anything unusual? Its just a poll, and its been a little while since last in Montana.

Harris polls better than Biden did, Tester, unfortunately, doesn't seem to get a bump.
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I mean, a democrat is not winning Montana in a million years. Its just moot to even post it.
 
Zumbi said:
Why would you assume a poll result from one state could/would be extrapolated across a national poll that also considers 49 other states? Wisconsin has gone Democrat in eight of the past nine presidential elections.
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Because the presidential elections with Trump on the ticket give the following outcomes:

2016: Wisconsin: Trump +1, National: Clinton +2
2020: Wisconsin: Biden+0.5, National: Biden +4

In both these cases Wisconsin leans Republican relative to the national vote. It would therefore be pretty surprising if in a Trump +4 environment Wisconsin went Harris +3. That's the complete inverse of what's happened before. Instead of it being Republican +3 compared to the national vote share, Wisconsin would become Democrats +7. A 10 point swing! Something enormous must have happened to the Wisconsin electorate, or for everywhere else except Wisconsin for something like that to occur. Nothing springs to mind.

Edit: At any rate this is all moot because the data that I thought came from a single pollster actually came from two different ones.
 
Is the new stick to bash Harris with that she isn't doing interviews? It's a bit hard to keep track.
 
Beachryan said:
Is the new stick to bash Harris with that she isn't doing interviews? It's a bit hard to keep track.
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Of all the critiques of Harris, this is a perfectly legitimate one. Not a single person has voted for her to be nominated as President, and yet she finds herself in a situation where she is being fast tracked through all the usual checks and balances every other candidate has to go through to be considered for the job. She has to therefore start doing interviews that challenge her policies, otherwise she will quickly risk being perceived as an empty vessel that is being undemocratically imposed on the electorate, who are being instructed to look the other way because the alternative is Trump.
 
Morty_ said:
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This sucks, there won't be any path to Dems holding senate if Tester loses (GOP will easily get West Viriginia with Manchin retiring). Still, Tester like Manchin has the ability of winning in deep red states, so probably might turn things around.

NB: To be fair, there is no chance Dems keep the senate. No GOP seat is threatened, West Viriginia will go GOP, effectively making it 50-50. Then Dems will need to hold Montana and Ohio, both deep red / red states, keep Nevada, win Minnesota, Arizona, and to a lesser degree Penn and Wisconsin.
 
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Revan said:
This sucks, but it will probably happen. There won't be any path to Dems holding senate if Tester loses (GOP will easily get West Viriginia with Manchin retiring).
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Sucks that the people of Wisconsin simply couldn't handle having a black person as senator, thats what ultimately will cost dems the senate this cycle.
 
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