2024 U.S. Elections | Thread Closed

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The Democrats ran an average candidate that got into the race in the 11th hour and was tied to an unpopular administration. Then they touted the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Now they are concluding they lost because of the left.

They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.
 
The Democrats ran an average candidate that got into the race in the 11th hour and was tied to an unpopular administration. Then they touted the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Now they are concluding they lost because of the left.

They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.

Does it have to be one or the other? Losing the popular vote to Trump makes me think they've committed about 81 million mistakes. From activist to candidate.

If it had been close arguing nuances would make more sense.

(Sorry @TheGame no clue how that ended up as your quote. I hate the new quote layout).
 
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The Democrats ran an average candidate that got into the race in the 11th hour and was tied to an unpopular administration. Then they touted the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Now they are concluding they lost because of the left.

They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.
They seem to stand for something better than the detestable Republicans. If they stood for absolutely nothing, Harris wouldn’t have been able to run rings around Trump in the televised debate. Of course they seem to have gotten a lot wrong but these blanket statements seem off.
 
Gbt2nUPWsBY0Z-K
 
They seem to stand for something better than the detestable Republicans. If they stood for absolutely nothing, Harris wouldn’t have been able to run rings around Trump in the televised debate. Of course they seem to have gotten a lot wrong but these blanket statements seem off.
Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.
 
The Democrats ran an average candidate that got into the race in the 11th hour and was tied to an unpopular administration. Then they touted the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Now they are concluding they lost because of the left.

They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.
If only it were so easy. As said many, many times in this thread, people for some reason hold the Democrats at a much higher standard than Republicans.

Trump is the epitome of "0 policies, just trying to win elections". All he stands for is taking a shit on everything that is in his path to power: opponents, (former) allies, even the democratic system itself. But somehow it's not the Republicans but the Dems who need more principled positions and policies.

What's also interesting, is that despite the Dems being essentially a centre/centre-right party by international standards as you imply, their rejection by the US electorate is not for being too right wing or lacking policies, as I believe you claim. If anything the masses still perceive them as "socialist" and "left-wing liberals". And a party with no policies has literally just won the elections. What this tells me is that you're perhaps using your personal grievances with the Democrats to explain their defeat, which is a form of confirmation bias. It doesn't mean that your views are shared by the wider populace or that becoming a more traditional left-wing party will get the Dems back into power. You're conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that the US electorate has shifted right by all observable metrics.

The right has won the blue-collar and the minority votes by peddling irrational fear of immigrants and engaging in culture wars over trans rights. It hasn't won them on policies. And there's no indication that Dems becoming more left-leaning in policies, will revert that loss.

Edit: For me, nowadays it's all about appearances and far more basic instincts. A white, male mid-Western candidate would have faired better than Harris even with less policies and oratory skills.
 
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Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.
This is a good point.

Plus it helped Trump that the media as usual held the messages to different standards.

His was basically "I hear you that your lives suck right now, but Trump'll fix it and also, don't ask for details". He even went with "I have concepts of a plan" about 8 years after promising to fix healthcare and everyone just let it slide.:lol:

Harris was just, meh. All I could remember is "I'm not a rapist (so at least I'm a decent human being) but also I'm pro-genocide (so, not that decent either)".
 
Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.
Yet dems did the same around Obama...
 
Great, they just have to get Obama to run again then.
Of the roughly 350 million people there's gotta be a 2nd decent one with some sort of charisma.

(He's the last candidate that wasn't the preferred dem leadership choice at the start of primaries)
 
Of the roughly 350 million people there's gotta be a 2nd decent one with some sort of charisma.

(He's the last candidate that wasn't the preferred dem leadership choice at the start of primaries)
They had it in 2016 with Bernie, but unfortunately it was “her time”.
 
Does it have to be one or the other? Losing the popular vote to Trump makes me think they've committed about 81 million mistakes. From activist to candidate.

If it had been close arguing nuances would make more sense.

(Sorry @TheGame no clue how that ended up as your quote. I hate the new quote layout).
I was going to say can’t remember writing that :lol:
 
Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.
You can’t just be a skilled prosecutor - you have say something of substance to come out so well on top. I watched it and she had a lot more substance on the core issues than you give her credit for.

All in all though, he’s clearly able to use misinformation, the worst human instincts of fear and bigotry, and his connect to his base better than she did. And get a big boost from republican’s superior footprint online.
 
The Democrats ran an average candidate that got into the race in the 11th hour and was tied to an unpopular administration. Then they touted the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Now they are concluding they lost because of the left.

They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.

Well let's face it, if you never win an election so you never get any power to do anything, what's the point in standing for anything?

Screaming until your blue in the face whilst not being able to get anything done is pointless.

America isn't anything other than centre right at the very least, it's just not the place to be left leaning, despite what I know some polls say about certain things.
 
It's kind of funny despite what appears to be a crushing defeat for Harris, she was 250k votes away from the presidency.
The Electoral College is a stupid, stupid system and no one can convince me otherwise.
 
4. The Democrats will always be held to a higher standard vs the GOP
5. It is always the economy. Rising stock market is not the economy. Harris would have won despite being a terrible candidate if inflation hadn't been so bad in the post-Covid/Ukraine times. Biden isn't to blame for it but the electorate is always going to blame him and his admin. There is a reason why incumbents globally have struggled in elections in 2024.
These 2 almost makes the election into a foregone conclusion. By that, I mean, I wonder if it would’ve moved the needle at all in the blame game if the Harris campaign had just laser focused on inflation and pounded home the fact that inflation was an unavoidable consequence of what happened 2016-2020 & that we’d fared better than a supermajority of the G-30 in fighting it?
 
This part almost makes the election into a foregone conclusion. By that, I mean, I wonder if it would’ve moved the needle at all in the blame game if the Harris campaign had just laser focused on inflation and pounded home the fact that inflation was an unavoidable consequence of what happened 2016-2020 & that we’d fared better than a supermajority of the G-30 in fighting it?
Unless by pounding home the fact you mean successfully explaining like they're five what basic economics is, I don't think it would have worked.
 
This part almost makes the election into a foregone conclusion. By that, I mean, I wonder if it would’ve moved the needle at all in the blame game if the Harris campaign had just laser focused on inflation and pounded home the fact that inflation was an unavoidable consequence of what happened 2016-2020 & that we’d fared better than a supermajority of the G-30 in fighting it?
I do not think Harris ever stood a chance. Americans strongly dissaproved Biden and her biggest selling point was that she was Biden’s VP. Add to that, she is a bad candidate herself. But then it didn’t help that Dems message was ‘Trump is bad’, rather than focusing on giving hope to the struggling people.

That’s why that zombie should have quit/forced to quit a year earlier, Dems should have done primaries when most likely a competent governor (Newsom, Shapiro or Whitmer) would have won. That would have allowed them to bring a message or positivity while distancing themselves from Biden’s presidency, and also not diminishing the message of Trump is a threat to democracy (hard to sell it when you just did yourself the most undemocratic nomination process in forever).

Instead, their message was that of fear of what would happen if Trump wins, in calling everyone idiots, missinformed, bigots or preferably all, and not even trying to take merits of some of good Biden policies. That worked in 2020 cause covid was running havoc and Trump was President, but name calling, virtue signaling and pontificating does not work if you are in government and the country is struggling. This has been the third time in a row when Dems did not provide a positive campaign but focused everything in ‘Trump is bad’. Not surprisingly they lost two of those campaigns against an extremely flawed candidate.

Dems need an Obama moment. Someone who is a relative outsider in DC. Someone who connects with people and understands (or gives the impression) the struggles of people. Someone who spends most of the time in a positive campaign in what they will do to fix the country. Someone who promises to fix people lives, regardless of their race, gender or other identity. Not a DC creature whom no one likes and whose campaign would be ‘if JD Wins, the democracy is forever lost’.
 
These 2 almost makes the election into a foregone conclusion. By that, I mean, I wonder if it would’ve moved the needle at all in the blame game if the Harris campaign had just laser focused on inflation and pounded home the fact that inflation was an unavoidable consequence of what happened 2016-2020 & that we’d fared better than a supermajority of the G-30 in fighting it?
How do you pound that message home if most people don't watch traditional media?
 
So desperate people voted for the person that untruthfully promises to fix everything, not a whole lot you can do to combat that.
Desperate people will also likely buy into the comforting and reductionist strawmen of migration and the deep state being responsible for their financial hardships. The ones who lack any form of critical thinking that is.
 
They will continue to slide right, because they don’t stand for anything other than trying to win elections.

Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.
These are two very different things indeed. The Democrats absolutely stand for things, both parties do. Trump doesn't, or rather he stands for things that will get him elected.

You nailed it in the second message though, Democrats are the party of nuance and, to be frank, its why they are so popular with the highly educated and unpopular with the less educated. In the UK there is a little more room in public debate for nuance, but there is none in the US. You only have to look at the state of the media to see this. In the UK you still have programmes like newsnight, question time and PMQs gets a lot of interest etc. In the US its glitzy cable shows, tarted up anchors and people shouting their soundbites, and it has to be because their media are so commercial and profit driven. There's no viewership or money in a 2 hour deep dive into the macro-economic drivers of inflation.

The last two Democrat presidents were a generationally charasmatc politician and one who was nothing more than a middle of the road antidote to 4 years of Trump.

To quote Will AcAvoy "If Democrats are so smart how come you lose so god-damn always". The tables are stacked against the Democrats not just by the electoral college but also because the level of public debate in the US plays right into the hands of the Republicans and that, as has been mentioned, Democrats are held to a much higher standard than their counterparts.
 
Unless by pounding home the fact you mean successfully explaining like they're five what basic economics is, I don't think it would have worked.
I agree. Clearly "teaching" people was not going to work. This was about "feels". They think that they got more groceries for their buck under Trump. It seems like they needed a male candidate that was cool, not in the Biden administration, not "woke" apparently.
Someone that had Immigration right up there with Economy as the 2 main issues.

I mean that is all I can think of
 
Harris defeated Trump in the debate, because she is a skilled former prosecutor, and he is an old dopey lunatic.

The Republicans are awful, but they are able to coalesce around something to provide a clear message - that something being Trump. The Democrats don’t have a unifying messenger like that, and they don’t have a coherent program that people understand.

That's a matter of perspective. She beats no one in that debate. Trump has more great punchline that bolster his base

"I fire because they're doing a shit job, she never fire anyone" and the part where he invited the taliban and showed a picture of his house and threatened to bomb them, gotta admid that was boss and Americans resonates with that.

Americans dont care about specifics, they need strong man with yes can do attitude, it amazes me how the dems never learnt from Hillary vs Trump debate. Instead of finding the punchline and fought back they resort to "browse here for fact check" and it's all filled with Biden's error.

You just think Kamala won looking from a leftiest perspective. Trump run rings around Kamala with his gotcha moment

At best Kamala was a standard generic democrat response, which should be the bare minimum. We've had years of Biden anyone can string a few sentences is hailed as brilliant.

Obama would have counter punch those punch lines beautifully.

These presidential nonimee are like the generals of their followers, their punchline gives the common folks ammunition in real life, kamala offered none.

What are her smart arse gotcha response again? I can't remember any

The dems needs to fire their whole campaign consultant. Embarassing not to even come up with a catchy slogan.
 
How much worse could Biden have done?

Trump won because he was hammering home a consistent message which was strong on economy and immigrations. Harris focused on vibes.
 
So desperate people voted for the person that untruthfully promises to fix everything, not a whole lot you can do to combat that.
In this election specifically, with Harris being unequivocally connected to the Biden presidency that these desperate people believe has put them in their predicament, it was always going to be very tough. Generally speaking, I think that you just have to play their game.

Trump has shown in two elections now that it is not always enough to be a "safe pair of hands", and that a lot of people want to see big ideas that promise to improve their lot. Whether his ideas have any merit or not (and to be clear, I don't believe they do), Trump is very good at promising big. Clinton, Biden, and Harris have not been.

It was fairly evident that Biden was able to beat Trump because COVID happened and he was seen as a safe pair of hands running against an incumbent that was an absolute clusterfeck. When the Democrats don't have that luxury, I think they need to start making some of the same big promises to the electorate that Trump has been making. Worry about logistics when you're in power.
 
How do you pound that message home if most people don't watch traditional media?
I would say they should’ve had a much more robust non-traditional media game. They definitely fell behind in that arms race to the GOP.
Unless by pounding home the fact you mean successfully explaining like they're five what basic economics is, I don't think it would have worked.
Maybe so. Maybe nothing would’ve worked to make enough folks realize that Trump’s message “isn’t how that works”. I mean, I’m not exactly sure if there’s a way to make a “Drill Baby Drill!!!” slogan out of “yes, inflation happened under us, due to what happened before us, but we made it a lot better than it could have been”.

Ultimately though, if that’s the reality of the American electorate, then we are well and truly fecked unless the Democrats just find their own version of Trump and just go to a strategy of one-upping the GOP candidate on their simplistic & non-realistic messaging. But then you’d also need a Democratic electorate base that will fall in lock step and not ask questions… just wink wink, nudge nudge and go on about their day.
I do not think Harris ever stood a chance. Americans strongly dissaproved Biden and her biggest selling point was that she was Biden’s VP. Add to that, she is a bad candidate herself. But then it didn’t help that Dems message was ‘Trump is bad’, rather than focusing on giving hope to the struggling people.
I reckon you’re right, but I do understand why there was the thought process of pushing true message that if you wouldn’t leave a guy alone in a room with your daughter / wife, you shouldn’t vote for him for president. The Republicans were doing the same with Biden with the “he sniffs kids” stuff & were attacking Harris for “sleeping to the top”
 
This has been the third time in a row when Dems did not provide a positive campaign but focused everything in ‘Trump is bad’. Not surprisingly they lost two of those campaigns against an extremely flawed candidate.
Suspect that many political journalists, writers and historians will make tons of money out of forensically examining this very thing over the next few years in various writings.... and no Democrat politician will take note, probably they will consider it 'sinful' just to even read the material.
 
So desperate people voted for the person that untruthfully promises to fix everything, not a whole lot you can do to combat that.
This is basically the thought I’ve been having myself.

The only way I can figure you combat that is to out untruthful promise the other guy & hope that your base doesn’t ask questions
 
Nevada also projected for Trump to win. Jn the last 4 presidential elections it went to the Democrats.
 
Arizona last swing state to be projected but Trump is leading. Crazy that he will likely win all 7 swing states.
 
Dems have been so myopic. A lot of Americans were not happy with the economy under Biden. They think the inflation is his fault. And what do the Dems do? Put up his VP on the ballot. They needed someone fresh, not associated with the Biden administration and who could run on a strong economic platform.
 
My general feeling is that the liberal ecosystem was far too positive about Joe Biden and his administration, and that this is part of what killed them in this election.

I feel that they thought he was more beloved and respected than he actually was. That he was this great elder statesman. Because of this, it took them longer than it should have to understand just how unpopular and despised he could actually get. They were naive about his age and deterioration, too. Some, like Matthew Yglesias, could not see it. Others, like Ezra Klein, did.

But if you read the Klein column you see the rest of the issue: they thought his administration was a rousing success. Klein makes a strong case for replacing Biden, but of the administration, he writes:
The Biden administration and congressional Democrats passed a series of bills — the bipartisan infrastructure deal, the Inflation Reduction Act, the CHIPS and Science Act — that will make this a decade of infrastructure and invention. A decade of building, of decarbonizing, of researching. They expanded the Affordable Care Act, and it worked — more than 21 million people signed up for the A.C.A. last year, a record. They did what Democrats have promised to do forever and took at least the first steps toward letting Medicare negotiate drug prices.

And the Biden team, they said they were going to run the economy hot, that at long last, they were going to prioritize full employment, and they did. And then inflation shot up. Not just here but in Europe, in Canada, pretty much everywhere. The pandemic had twisted global supply chains and then the economy had reopened, and people desperate to live again took their pandemic savings and spent. And the Biden team, in partnership with Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve, got the rate of inflation back down, and we are still beneath 4 percent unemployment.

And I don’t want to just skip over that accomplishment. Most economists said that could not be done. The overwhelming consensus was we were headed for a recession, that the so-called soft landing was a fantasy. It got mocked as “immaculate disinflation.” But that is what happened. We didn’t have a recession. We are still seeing strong wage gains for the poorest Americans. Inequality is down. Growth is quick. America is far stronger economically right now than Europe, than Canada, than China. You want to be us.
He wasn't the only one. Dean Baker at CEPR wrote that "Joe Biden Has Given Us the Greatest Economy Ever." At Salon, they wrote "Joe Biden's economy is, honestly, pretty amazing: How come he doesn't get credit?" Yglesias wrote that Biden's economy was great everywhere except in the polls. This gap, between the polls and the liberal perception of Biden's admin, is what led to all the talk about the vibecession, one of the most cursed technocrat ideas I've ever seen: the rubes must be deluded by the media because this number here is good.

That was the general perception in the liberal ecosystem going into 2024: Biden is a good president, things are good, and his brain is a-ok. They walked into 2024 unprepared to navigate the actual season: an enormous percentage of the country was unhappy with the way things were and thought he was doing a bad job, an even larger percentage thought he was incapable of doing the job, and people were never going to warm up to him again because he's just some stupid mean dipshit that was carried by Obama's reputation.

This led to a primary season where nobody ran and where some people even convinced themselves that Trump was the one coming out looking weak. Look at all the votes Biden is getting, they said. He's sweeping the primary; people must really want him as the candidate.

That's how you end up in a situation where it's mid-year and people fecking hate you and the job you're doing and you are totally ill-equipped to meet them anywhere near the vicinity of where they are.
 
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