2021 American Civil War

Drifter said:
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I believe videos like that are part of the problem. Yes, the intention behind it is good but they're clearly suggestive and lurid. Stylistically a video that also could've been produced by Trump's propaganda machine.

Honestly, I think America is doomed as long as that's the standard of reporting. Democrats should be better than that, it indirectly legitimizes similar stuff from the right side.
 
Zehner said:
I believe videos like that are part of the problem. Yes, the intention behind it is good but they're clearly suggestive and lurid. Stylistically a video that also could've been produced by Trump's propaganda machine.

Honestly, I think America is doomed as long as that's the standard of reporting. Democrats should be better than that, it indirectly legitimizes similar stuff from the right side.
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Its not really reporting though is it. It’s merely a random advocacy video that is pretty normal on social media these days.
 
Raoul said:
Its not really reporting though is it. It’s merely a random advocacy video that is pretty normal on social media these days.
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Maybe "campaigning" is a better word for it. However, I've also noticed the same style in actual news reports. I believe news should be reporting the facts as neutral as possible so that everybody can form his own opinion based on that. And even in that scenario there#s enough ways to support the forming of a favoured opinion - as a journalist you can highlight specific arguments and leave others out completely since you always have to summarize certain things.

So that's like the fundamental requirement, I believe, and from what I experienced in the last few months of following US media more closely, American media outlets don't even try to fulfill this basic requirement. Even news channels often broadcast highly suggestive if not deceptive reports - the kind of stuff where you automatically get the feeling that the author wants you to draw certain conclusions. And if those conclusions aren't in line with your general views, it sparks reactance. Honestly, I think that this kind of reporting/campaigning is at least in large parts responsible for this whole alterative facts/fake news disaster. If you're used to stuff like that and it's accepted that widely, it's just natural that you develop a higher tolerance for deceptive campaigns.
 
Zehner said:
Maybe "campaigning" is a better word for it. However, I've also noticed the same style in actual news reports. I believe news should be reporting the facts as neutral as possible so that everybody can form his own opinion based on that. And even in that scenario there#s enough ways to support the forming of a favoured opinion - as a journalist you can highlight specific arguments and leave others out completely since you always have to summarize certain things.

So that's like the fundamental requirement, I believe, and from what I experienced in the last few months of following US media more closely, American media outlets don't even try to fulfill this basic requirement. Even news channels often broadcast highly suggestive if not deceptive reports - the kind of stuff where you automatically get the feeling that the author wants you to draw certain conclusions. And if those conclusions aren't in line with your general views, it sparks reactance. Honestly, I think that this kind of reporting/campaigning is at least in large parts responsible for this whole alterative facts/fake news disaster. If you're used to stuff like that and it's accepted that widely, it's just natural that you develop a higher tolerance for deceptive campaigns.
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Yet, this is in no way creating fake news or alternative facts. This is simply putting historical fact out there with a certain media savvy. This is not the time to forget what just happened here THREE WEEKS AGO; it’s time to use these social media platforms to just put out what these cnuts both said & did.

It’s going to be near impossible to find common ground with the mental deficients who champion what Hawley, Cruz et al did. It will take campaign style social media work like this to potentially sway their colleagues in the Senate to get rid of them.

Now is not the time to quibble over aesthetics.
 
Zehner said:
Maybe "campaigning" is a better word for it. However, I've also noticed the same style in actual news reports. I believe news should be reporting the facts as neutral as possible so that everybody can form his own opinion based on that. And even in that scenario there#s enough ways to support the forming of a favoured opinion - as a journalist you can highlight specific arguments and leave others out completely since you always have to summarize certain things.

So that's like the fundamental requirement, I believe, and from what I experienced in the last few months of following US media more closely, American media outlets don't even try to fulfill this basic requirement. Even news channels often broadcast highly suggestive if not deceptive reports - the kind of stuff where you automatically get the feeling that the author wants you to draw certain conclusions. And if those conclusions aren't in line with your general views, it sparks reactance. Honestly, I think that this kind of reporting/campaigning is at least in large parts responsible for this whole alterative facts/fake news disaster. If you're used to stuff like that and it's accepted that widely, it's just natural that you develop a higher tolerance for deceptive campaigns.
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Much of this is down to Roger Aisles. He started gradually shifting news out of the evening lineups on Fox News in the 90s and eventually realized that he could get more viewers by investing in more opinion shows like O’Reilly, Hannity, etc. The other two networks started losing in the ratings and were gradually forced to start incorporating more opinion into their shows as well.

For instance, today, many CNN shows begin or end in some sort of editorial monologue where the host frames issues according to their own opinion AC360, Cuomo, Lemon et al., do this all time time. This has over time gradually blurred the lines between fact and opinion, and when you throw social media into the mix, it’s becoming pretty clear that the good old days where people simply read objective facts to inform the public of the news of the day are behind us, and are never coming back.
 
calodo2003 said:
Yet, this is in no way creating fake news or alternative facts. This is simply putting historical fact out there with a certain media savvy. This is not the time to forget what just happened here THREE WEEKS AGO; it’s time to use these social media platforms to just put out what these cnuts both said & did.

It’s going to be near impossible to find common ground with the mental deficients who champion what Hawley, Cruz et al did. It will take campaign style social media work like this to potentially sway their colleagues in the Senate to get rid of them.

Now is not the time to quibble over aesthetics.
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I'm not talking about aesthetics but conditioning. IMO, if people are used to being exposed to such stuff it's no wonder they're more open to conspiracy theories or develop a very loose attitude towards facts.

I mean, if we dig deeper the reason why the authors of such videos phrase them the way they do is that they don't trust the audience to draw the right conclusions themselves. It's not enough to tell them what happened, you have to play dramatic music in the background, remind them in martial language that "blood has been spilled" and that the protesters "killed five people" etc. Now these things aren't necessarily untrue but the phrasing is debatable and left intentionally vague in order to be openn for interpretation - that's exactly how conspiracy theories come to be.

Now what that does is
a) it teaches recipients that it's okay to bend the facts as long as it serves a favourable agenda
b) people get used to news/political campaigns being entertaining. That moves the focus away from information and hard facts.
c) people of differing opinions notice the not really subtle approach to influence the audience and the consequence is reactance. This not only expells people from the trustworthier media outlets (and drives them towards conspiracy theoriests) but also contributes to an even bigger divide between the political spectrums.

All this contributes to people becoming more prone to conspiracy theories. It's only natural that the American people, if they're constantly exposed to such deceptive campaigns like that, are drawn towards Qanon and co. Even electing a former game show master as their president is in line with that.

Raoul said:
Much of this is down to Roger Aisles. He started gradually shifting news out of the evening lineups on Fox News in the 90s and eventually realized that he could get more viewers by investing in more opinion shows like O’Reilly, Hannity, etc. The other two networks started losing in the ratings and were gradually forced to start incorporating more opinion into their shows as well.

For instance, today, many CNN shows begin or end in some sort of editorial monologue where the host frames issues according to their own opinion AC360, Cuomo, Lemon et al., do this all time time. This has over time gradually blurred the lines between fact and opinion, and when you throw social media into the mix, it’s becoming pretty clear that the good old days where people simply read objective facts to inform the public of the news of the day are behind us, and are never coming back.
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I think it doesn't really matter where this practice stemmed from. However, as long as even "the good guys" continue using this instrument and indirectly legitimize it, the problems will only get worse (see above).

Trump, Qanon, all that stuff - I think the underlying cause of those developments is is that the American people have been conditioned to value entertainment over information.

And I don't believe it's without alternative. IMO your view on this is pretty fatalistic. You've experienced the consequences and if you continue like you do it was probably merely a pre-taste. The awareness for the problem of alternative facts and fake news was never as big as it is now.
 
Zehner said:
I think it doesn't really matter where this practice stemmed from. However, as long as even "the good guys" continue using this instrument and indirectly legitimize it, the problems will only get worse (see above).

Trump, Qanon, all that stuff - I think the underlying cause of those developments is is that the American people have been conditioned to value entertainment over information.

And I don't believe it's without alternative. IMO your view on this is pretty fatalistic. You've experienced the consequences and if you continue like you do it was probably merely a pre-taste. The awareness for the problem of alternative facts and fake news was never as big as it is now.
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There are alternatives, but not viable ones. Ultimately, the people who make adverts know what animates the people they are trying to reach and simply putting out mundane facts will not move the needle in influencing audiences in this environment. Culturally, America is fundamentally an entertainment driven society and making political ads is not exempt from this.
 
Zehner said:
I'm not talking about aesthetics but conditioning. IMO, if people are used to being exposed to such stuff it's no wonder they're more open to conspiracy theories or develop a very loose attitude towards facts.

I mean, if we dig deeper the reason why the authors of such videos phrase them the way they do is that they don't trust the audience to draw the right conclusions themselves. It's not enough to tell them what happened, you have to play dramatic music in the background, remind them in martial language that "blood has been spilled" and that the protesters "killed five people" etc. Now these things aren't necessarily untrue but the phrasing is debatable and left intentionally vague in order to be openn for interpretation - that's exactly how conspiracy theories come to be.

Now what that does is
a) it teaches recipients that it's okay to bend the facts as long as it serves a favourable agenda
b) people get used to news/political campaigns being entertaining. That moves the focus away from information and hard facts.
c) people of differing opinions notice the not really subtle approach to influence the audience and the consequence is reactance. This not only expells people from the trustworthier media outlets (and drives them towards conspiracy theoriests) but also contributes to an even bigger divide between the political spectrums.

All this contributes to people becoming more prone to conspiracy theories. It's only natural that the American people, if they're constantly exposed to such deceptive campaigns like that, are drawn towards Qanon and co. Even electing a former game show master as their president is in line with that.



I think it doesn't really matter where this practice stemmed from. However, as long as even "the good guys" continue using this instrument and indirectly legitimize it, the problems will only get worse (see above).

Trump, Qanon, all that stuff - I think the underlying cause of those developments is is that the American people have been conditioned to value entertainment over information.

And I don't believe it's without alternative. IMO your view on this is pretty fatalistic. You've experienced the consequences and if you continue like you do it was probably merely a pre-taste. The awareness for the problem of alternative facts and fake news was never as big as it is now.
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Please don’t think that what we experienced over the last four years is a recent phenomena or recent mental delusion. It was always there & has shown itself in previous iterations, never as durably long as the last four years as the skids were definitely greased through social media. But the mental deficiency has existed for decades here.

I do agree that people value entertainment over information. That’s not endemic to just America by any means. Look at what now passes as mass entertainment & you’ll see an almost complete shift from reality. The dumbing down of society from a media perspective is worldwide & has aided those who are mentally deficient enough to be susceptible to such lunacy to relatively quickly embrace the newest conspiracy theory that has any durable legs. It is these people, those that have no foundation in reality & do not adhere to any logic or immutable fact, who are the complete problem.

There’s Trump-like politicians & Qanon adherents worldwide, we just offered it writ large for the world to see & experience. This is a worldwide mental deficiency.
 
I doubt the polarization between conservatives & liberals will calm down.

r/conservative is at it again. Only negative news about Biden.
 
Raoul said:
There are alternatives, but not viable ones. Ultimately, the people who make adverts know what animates the people they are trying to reach and simply putting out mundane facts will not move the needle in influencing audiences in this environment. Culturally, America is fundamentally an entertainment driven society and making political ads is not exempt from this.
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calodo2003 said:
Please don’t think that what we experienced over the last four years is a recent phenomena or recent mental delusion. It was always there & has shown itself in previous iterations, never as durably long as the last four years as the skids were definitely greased through social media. But the mental deficiency has existed for decades here.

I do agree that people value entertainment over information. That’s not endemic to just America by any means. Look at what now passes as mass entertainment & you’ll see an almost complete shift from reality. The dumbing down of society from a media perspective is worldwide & has aided those who are mentally deficient enough to be susceptible to such lunacy to relatively quickly embrace the newest conspiracy theory that has any durable legs. It is these people, those that have no foundation in reality & do not adhere to any logic or immutable fact, who are the complete problem.

There’s Trump-like politicians & Qanon adherents worldwide, we just offered it writ large for the world to see & experience. This is a worldwide mental deficiency.
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I don't know, you guys make it sound as if it's just human nature and not down to the US but in no other country it went that far.

And yes, if you allow all that to continue like it's currently developing then it'll only get worse. But that's what laws are for. In Germany for instance it would be impossible for a channel like Fox News to publish all the bullshit they did in the past years. There are public media companies which are financed by the tax payers and mostly independent from the market to provide reliable information and high quality jouralism and there are private media companies which still have to obey to the rules. It's way harder to publish fake news over here. Our own equivalents to Fox News and co. would probably be RTL or ProSieben on TV and they are nowhere near as extreme. And still people laugh you off if you admit watching their news channels.

We encounter similar problems regarding social media which is why I believe we need regulation for those platforms, too.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know, you guys make it sound as if it's just human nature and not down to the US but in no other country it went that far.

And yes, if you allow all that to continue like it's currently developing then it'll only get worse. But that's what laws are for. In Germany for instance it would be impossible for a channel like Fox News to publish all the bullshit they did in the past years. There are public media companies which are financed by the tax payers and mostly independent from the market to provide information and there are private media companies which still have to obey to the rules. It's way harder to publish fake news over here.

We enounter similar problems regarding social media which is why I believe we need regulation for those platforms, too.
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No other country has gone that far, yet. History doesn’t begin until something happens. We don’t know when the next chapter will now be written. We may have unfortunately shown those authoritarian leaning countries how to successfully pull off future repressive regimes & inoculate their respective populaces with delusions like Q. But, to categorize this as just an American malady is shortsighted. We can tend to illuminate horrible situations as a country, that doesn’t mean every other country is good by comparison regarding this.

I feel we’re here mainly due to social media. These companies exist as quasi-nation states in their financial power alone. Allowing them to have exceptionally little oversight vis à vis their power is largely why we found ourselves with our last four years. It’s going to be extremely messy trying to put this genie back in the bottle, but it probably needs to be done.

What’s to keep a Fox News from occurring in Germany? If a likeminded government took power, could existing laws be changed to allow for such programming? How difficult or time consuming would that process be, if at all possible?
 
calodo2003 said:
No other country has gone that far, yet. History doesn’t begin until something happens. We don’t know when the next chapter will now be written. We may have unfortunately shown those authoritarian leaning countries how to successfully pull off future repressive regimes & inoculate their respective populaces with delusions like Q. But, to categorize this as just an American malady is shortsighted. We can tend to illuminate horrible situations as a country, that doesn’t mean every other country is good by comparison regarding this.

I feel we’re here mainly due to social media. These companies exist as quasi-nation states in their financial power alone. Allowing them to have exceptionally little oversight vis à vis their power is largely why we found ourselves with our last four years. It’s going to be extremely messy trying to put this genie back in the bottle, but it probably needs to be done.

What’s to keep a Fox News from occurring in Germany? If a likeminded government took power, could existing laws be changed to allow for such programming? How difficult or time consuming would that process be, if at all possible?
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Don't get me wrong, not saying it's just an American thing. We've got our fair share of Qanon brains over here and conspiracy theories have become a real problem, too. But in general our media landscape is much more down to earth compared to yours, especially television. And I think those established mass media play huge roles in "legitimizing" the weird stuff people read on the internet.

I'm honestly not an expert on media law but as far as I know, media companies can't just publish whatever they want. The nazis utilized mass media and surveillance to devastating effects which is why the country is very sensitive towards hate speech, data collection and stuff like that - both from a juristic perspective as well as from a cultural one. Partly this is also the reason why we adapted many social networks very slowly. Maybe 5% in here even use Twitter.

Of course we also have very dubious media companies, like Bild for example - a news magazine which is known for very shady practices (blackmailing, lying, etc.) but there's absolutely no way they could publish conspiracy theories. There are organizations that reprimand them if they went too far (again).

I think the huge importance freedom has in American culture actually lead to media outlets abusing theirs. IMO you need to create laws that prevent such companies from spreading blatant lies or giving conspiracy theorists a platform simply because they sell. Freedom of speech ends where it harms others and considering what happened at the capitol, it's pretty obvious to me that certain media companies overstretched theirs. Social media obviously, too, but that's a different topic since there are no real best practices of how to control that. Personally, I think every influencer above a certain reach should be treated like a mass media company and as such have to fulfill the same standards of quality.
 
Zehner said:
Don't get me wrong, not saying it's just an American thing. We've got our fair share of Qanon brains over here, too, and conspiracy theories have become a real problem, too. But in general our media landscape is much more down to earth compared to yours, especially television. And I think those established mass media play huge roles in "legitimizing" the weird stuff people read on the internet.

I'm honestly not an expert on media law but as far as I know, media companies can't just publish whatever they want. The nazis utilized mass media and surveillance to devastating effects which is why the country is very sensitive towards hate speech, data collection and stuff like that - both from a juristic perspective as well as from a cultural one. Partly this is also the reason why we adapted many social networks very slowly. Maybe 5% in here even use Twitter.

Of course we also have very dubious media companies, like Bild for example - a news magazine which is known for very shady practices (blackmailing, lying, etc.) but there's absolutely no way they could publish conspiracy theories. There are organizations that reprimand them if they went too far (again).

I think the huge importance freedom has in American culture actually lead to media outlets abusing theirs. IMO you need to create laws that prevent such companies from spreading blatant lies or giving conspiracy theorists a platform simply because they sell. Freedom of speech ends where it harms others and considering what happened at the capitol, it's pretty obvious to me that certain media companies overstretched theirs.
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Makes complete sense in Germany regarding the Nazis & how they utilized the media & how your current laws are crafted.

Your last paragraph is utterly spot on. The challenge here is that a huge subset of the populace refuses to embrace immutable fact &, even with the tacit restrictions on Trump, Parler, etc., there’s far too much misinformation being aggressively peddled by those who see that segment of the populace being nothing but marks willing to suckle at their teat of disinfo.
 
Ish said:
I want them to start arresting the complicit politicians next.
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GOP rep that tried to start a punch up in the house after being called out by dems after the session resumed on Riot Night was caught carrying a sidearm into the chamber.
 
WPMUFC said:
GOP rep that tried to start a punch up in the house after being called out by dems after the session resumed on Riot Night was caught carrying a sidearm into the chamber.
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Yeah I’ve seen links and tweets here about some of them refusing to walk through metal detectors and/or disarm themselves etc. Such a clusterfeck. The likes of Boebert etc. who promoted (& even assisted) the insurrection should be held to account.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Is this one of those "bad people on both sides" things now?
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Well, I guess most of us leftist radicals put a lot of emphasis on administrative responsibilities while right wingers will try to put everything in private hands. That includes the blame game.

Self preservation by blaming everyone is more likely to succeed when the call for 'togetherness' comes from the right to the left.
 
Why are politicians not forced into retirement like most other professionals? It’s just something that got me thinking after seeing the age of Biden, Pelosi, Sanders, Trump etc.
 
Ish said:
Why are politicians not forced into retirement like most other professionals? It’s just something that got me thinking after seeing the age of Biden, Pelosi, Sanders, Trump etc.
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Diane Feinstein. Schumer had to tell her twice to step down from the judicial committee because she forgot she was asked the first time. Chuck Grassley probably thinks you can still go in to Walgreens, sit at the counter and order a fountain birch beer.
 
Odin said:
Well, I guess most of us leftist radicals put a lot of emphasis on administrative responsibilities while right wingers will try to put everything in private hands. That includes the blame game.

Self preservation by blaming everyone is more likely to succeed when the call for 'togetherness' comes from the right to the left.
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I always like that sort of thing. The left see a table covered in food and say "we should all share this". The right say "feck that" and eat everything in sight. Only after they've finished the last caviar sandwich do they look at everything and say "we should all be responsible for cleaning this up".
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I always like that sort of thing. The left see a table covered in food and say "we should all share this". The right say "feck that" and eat everything in sight. Only after they've finished the last caviar sandwich do they look at everything and say "we should all be responsible for cleaning this up".
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You only have to look at the pattern of Democrat clean up after Republican leadership.

Republicans do all the damage, then blame the Democrats whilst they’re cleaning up for the damage that they caused.

They’re extremely good at that strategy too whereas Democrats are useless at fighting back in the propaganda/messaging war.
 
matherto said:
You only have to look at the pattern of Democrat clean up after Republican leadership.

Republicans do all the damage, then blame the Democrats whilst they’re cleaning up for the damage that they caused.

They’re extremely good at that strategy too whereas Democrats are useless at fighting back in the propaganda/messaging war.
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Happens in the UK as well it seems. You have Labour politicians trying to take the high road against people who have no problem rolling around in pig shit and still coming out smelling like roses.
 
matherto said:
You only have to look at the pattern of Democrat clean up after Republican leadership.

Republicans do all the damage, then blame the Democrats whilst they’re cleaning up for the damage that they caused.

They’re extremely good at that strategy too whereas Democrats are useless at fighting back in the propaganda/messaging war.
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The older Republicans have been very savvy with that strategy for decades. The younger Republicans don't seem as clever from what I've seen, they're actively hurting themselves through immense stupidity.
 
Ish said:
Yeah I’ve seen links and tweets here about some of them refusing to walk through metal detectors and/or disarm themselves etc. Such a clusterfeck. The likes of Boebert etc. who promoted (& even assisted) the insurrection should be held to account.
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Anyone who refuses the metal detectors should be refused entry. Anyone who tries to push through security should be face planted on the ground with a cops knee in their back. No exceptions from the president down.
 
VorZakone said:
The older Republicans have been very savvy with that strategy for decades. The younger Republicans don't seem as clever from what I've seen, they're actively hurting themselves through immense stupidity.
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It does, fortunately, seem like a generation of Don-Juniors. Saints be praised.
 


"Garret Miller of Texas faces five criminal charges stemming from the Capitol insurrection, including trespassing offenses and making death threats. Miller allegedly tweeted, "assassinate AOC," according to court documents. He also said the police officer who fatally shot a Trump supporter during the attack "deserves to die" and won't "survive long" because it's "huntin[g] season."

Prosecutors said in newly released court documents that Miller posted extensively on social media before and during the attack, saying a "civil war could start" and "next time we bring the guns."
 
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Dudu said:


"Garret Miller of Texas faces five criminal charges stemming from the Capitol insurrection, including trespassing offenses and making death threats. Miller allegedly tweeted, "assassinate AOC," according to court documents. He also said the police officer who fatally shot a Trump supporter during the attack "deserves to die" and won't "survive long" because it's "huntin[g] season."

Prosecutors said in newly released court documents that Miller posted extensively on social media before and during the attack, saying a "civil war could start" and "next time we bring the guns."
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He "regrets his actions" .... but only because he got caught and has now had the shock of realising that being a white-privileged Trump supporter does not protect him from consequences.
 
GiddyUp said:
Diane Feinstein. Schumer had to tell her twice to step down from the judicial committee because she forgot she was asked the first time. Chuck Grassley probably thinks you can still go in to Walgreens, sit at the counter and order a fountain birch beer.
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Bloody hell
Kentonio said:
Anyone who refuses the metal detectors should be refused entry. Anyone who tries to push through security should be face planted on the ground with a cops knee in their back. No exceptions from the president down.
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Yep. Exactly.
 


JFC.....they cannot deny observable reality, so now the goalposts have moved to, "actually Trump will be inaugurated in March"

The only way this shit ends is when Trump is seen in chains going to prison right? That's the only way "actually Trump will still be president" shit ends?
 
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