2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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HTG said:
It’s illegal. It’s not impossible.
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Again, how would he practically do that? Trump doesn’t personally organize the election. The machine will keep rolling. I appreciate your sentiment, but this is next level conspiracy. I definitely believe that Trump would LIKE to do what you are suggesting, but he CAN’T.
 
Raoul said:
True. The participants are bad but the institution itself remains resilient. Replace the participants and the outcomes will revert back to pre-Trump norms.
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You say that like pre-Trump norms are a great thing. They weren't. The institutions have been failing for a long time now (just look at the War on Drugs, the prison industry, the Pentagon spending, the persistent scandals from energy deregulation to the deregulation of the financial services, Citizens United and the effects of the rich and powerful flooding the process, special interest lobbying power, the absurd amount of power a minority wields due to the Senate and Electoral College, etc). American institutions will continue to produce detrimental results unless they can be updated for modern times and technologies and the outdated, harmful traditions are discarded.

The standard for American institutions absolutely cannot just be "better than Trump". That is a remarkably low bar.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Technically, Pelosi wouldn’t be an elected official if there were no elections so it would not pass to her. The scenario described is if elections were held but the outcome of the General Election was still contested.

If we get to the point you describe, I think the Presidency goes to Tom Hanks or something.
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Oh ok. I read that another scenario is that there are no elections and state parliaments decide on their electoral college. That would guarantee a Trump win right now. I don't know the details of all that though. But I do know that everyone who matters in the GOP has burned Trump on this, so no way this elections delay is happening.

If you're going the Tom Hanks road though, I'd prefer Harrison Ford. Great president in Airforce One. And he's in the right age category.
HTG said:
There are plenty of ways to do this. He could cancel or delay the election. He could declare himself winner, no matter the actual result. He could simply manipulate the election (he’s already doing so). There’s plenty of ways. But what’s most important and what people need to understand is, that all he needs are enough supporters, who believe him. He doesn’t need to convince the majority that what he’s doing is right. He only needs to convince his base. And they are heavily armed and basically members of a political death cult.
It has happened in so many other countries before. The USA is not special. It can happen there, too. It might very soon.
By the way, what if the military or the police keeps answering to him, even if he loses? Do you trust the American police to be on the side of law and reason? I don’t.
The very same president has manipulated an election before, he’ll try again. He might succeed.
And again, I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but it can. And there should be plans for a scenario like this. Because he doesn’t care about the constitution.
There is no warning sign of fascism or authoritanism the USA is not currently displacing.
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I'm with @SirAF on this: you're in serious conspiracy theory now. Trump can't unilaterally delay or cancel the elections, and the military has already shown not to be willing to just follow whatever order. He could try to get his base to rise up, that's the one thing. But that would result in a civil war.
 
SirAF said:
Again, how would he practically do that? Trump doesn’t personally organize the election. The machine will keep rolling. I appreciate your sentiment, but this is next level conspiracy. I definitely believe that Trump would LIKE to do what you are suggesting, but he CAN’T.
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There are endless ways to do it. It has happened before, in many countries. And I’m very sure it was very often not legal.
Trump has done countless illegal things. Why can’t he do this one?
The constitution is worthless, if those supposed to protect it, don’t care for it.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
You say that like pre-Trump norms are a great thing. They weren't. The institutions have been failing for a long time now (just look at the War on Drugs, criminal justice, the Pentagon spending, the persistent scandals from energy deregulation to the deregulation of the financial services to what's happening now). American institutions will continue to produce detrimental results unless they can be updated for modern times and technologies and the outdated traditions are discarded.

The standard for American institutions absolutely cannot just be "better than Trump". That is a remarkably low bar.
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What you're citing are policy related problems related to bad ideas - not the institution itself. We, as always, are simply in a place where we need to elect better people to push better policies.
 
Cheimoon said:
I'm with @SirAF on this: you're in serious conspiracy theory now. Trump can't unilaterally delay or cancel the elections, and the military has already shown not to be willing to just follow whatever order. He could try to get his base to rise up, that's the one thing. But that would result in a civil war.
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Which would be shut down by the armed forces, who answer to the POTUS (Biden).
 
HTG said:
There are endless ways to do it. It has happened before, in many countries. And I’m very sure it was very often not legal.
Trump has done countless illegal things. Why can’t he do this one?
The constitution is worthless, if those supposed to protect it, don’t care for it.
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Trump is still on the hook for any illegal activities related to his Presidency. Once he's out of office, he will no longer have any immunity to protect him.
 
Cheimoon said:
Oh ok. I read that another scenario is that there are no elections and state parliaments decide on their electoral college. That would guarantee a Trump win right now. I don't know the details of all that though. But I do know that everyone who matters in the GOP has burned Trump on this, so no way this elections delay is happening.

If you're going the Tom Hanks road though, I'd prefer Harrison Ford. Great president in Airforce One. And he's in the right age category.

I'm with @SirAF on this: you're in serious conspiracy theory now. Trump can't unilaterally delay or cancel the elections, and the military has already shown not to be willing to just follow whatever order. He could try to get his base to rise up, that's the one thing. But that would result in a civil war.
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Most of the Trump "militia" people I met while living in the south were gun toting cowards. They would break and run the moment he National Guard rolled in. Besides, an extended conflict would threaten the college football season, and there is no way they are going to risk that.
 
HTG said:
There are plenty of ways to do this. He could cancel or delay the election. He could declare himself winner, no matter the actual result. He could simply manipulate the election (he’s already doing so). There’s plenty of ways. But what’s most important and what people need to understand is, that all he needs are enough supporters, who believe him. He doesn’t need to convince the majority that what he’s doing is right. He only needs to convince his base. And they are heavily armed and basically members of a political death cult.
It has happened in so many other countries before. The USA is not special. It can happen there, too. It might very soon.
By the way, what if the military or the police keeps answering to him, even if he loses? Do you trust the American police to be on the side of law and reason? I don’t.
The very same president has manipulated an election before, he’ll try again. He might succeed.
And again, I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but it can. And there should be plans for a scenario like this. Because he doesn’t care about the constitution.
There is no warning sign of fascism or authoritanism the USA is not currently displacing.
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Not to pile on, but something to note here and also in regards to your previous post is it is not actually the rule of law that has failed here, but rather our reliance on norms in our ‘democracy’ that we have massively taken for granted.

Also, a military coup is not possible in this situation for a variety of reasons. If he refuses to leave, he would literally be carried out of the building by the Secret Service at noon on Jan 20th.
 
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Organic Potatoes said:
Not to pile on, but something to note here and also in regards to your previous post is it not actually the rule of law that has failed here, but rather our reliance on norms in our ‘democracy’ that we have massively taken for granted.

Also, a military coup is not possible in this situation for a variety of reasons. If he refuses to leave, he would literally be carried out of the building by the Secret Service at noon on Jan 20th.
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I think (and hope) this is the biggest takeaway from the last 4 years. Our government has functioned (to whatever small capacity it has) since its existence based largely on unwritten norms of decency (or at least the pretense of it). I would hope this will lead to some real legislation to turn those unwritten rules into law to prevent this. And for the love of all our racist founding fathers, get rid of executive orders!
 
Raoul said:
What you're citing are policy related problems related to bad ideas - not the institution itself. We, as always, are simply in a place where we need to elect better people to push better policies.
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The policy related problems result directly from the flaws in the institutions. In other words, part of the problem IS the way the Senate and Electoral College grant overwhelming power to rural minorities. How the Supreme Court interpretations affect the laws that can be passed by Congress, how outdated institutions designed in the 18th century simply don't have the ability to keep up with modern lobbying. This is why Thomas Jefferson believed in a living constitution because he, unlike some of the other framers, realized that times like now would arrive when the institutions created in 1789 simply don't have the ability to form the most optimal government.

The last meaningful Constitutional Amendment was 49 years ago.
 
Raoul said:
Trump is still on the hook for any illegal activities related to his Presidency. Once he's out of office, he will no longer have any immunity to protect him.
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All the more motivation not to give up power.

Trump doesn’t play by the rules.
Organic Potatoes said:
Not to pile on, but something to note here and also in regards to your previous post is it not actually the rule of law that has failed here, but rather our reliance on norms in our ‘democracy’ that we have massively taken for granted.

Also, a military coup is not possible in this situation for a variety of reasons. If he refuses to leave, he would literally be carried out of the building by the Secret Service at noon on Jan 20th.
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Very much a possible scenario. Not going to deny that. But my point stands: just because it’s illegal, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And I absolutely believe that Trump is capable of trying and there is, a very slight one, admittedly, a real chance it might happen. Not even entertaining the possibility, is merely a form of denial, about the current situation in the USA, in my opinion.
 
Now that there’s a Trump guy in charge of the USPS, would he be able to delay the delivery of mail in ballots to the point where a whole lot of them in key swing states aren’t counted?

It appears that he is systemically gutting the institutions and there’s not a lot that can be done, since it’s legal though perhaps not moral.
 
Well, we won’t come together anyway.
But I strongly hope that I’m indeed overly worried or paranoid. Unfortunately my point stands: it’s possible and I believe people seriously overestimate the fortitude of the institutions supposed to protect the constitution. Trump and the GOP had almost four years to undermine them as much as possible.
 


I hope this is real. Very few honest people around. Good that the Biden campaign is catering to them.
 
All three front runners have some flaws so it will be a bit of a tricky choice for Biden.





Harris is deeply distrusted by some in Biden's inner circle and raises concern from many Dems that she just has her eye on 2024.

Rice has never been elected to public office. Her son is an outspoken Trump supporter.

Bass has history with Cuba and been complimentary towards Castro which wont go down well in Florida.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/07/karen-bass-cuba-venceremos-brigade/614662
 
HTG said:
Just stumbled this here from the Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-2020-election-could-go-wrong/614842/
Basically what we were just discussing, but written by smarter people.
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The bottom line is still this though:

The good news is that Trump cannot postpone the election or the next presidential inauguration; he has no means to do either of those things. Those dates are set by law or in the text of the Constitution.

Nor can Trump somehow cling to power after Inauguration Day once the electoral vote is certified against him. If the Electoral College certifies Joe Biden the winner when its votes are counted in Washington, D.C., on January 6, then at noon on January 20, Donald Trump ceases to be president. His signature loses all legal effect, the officer carrying the nuclear football walks away, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff does not take his call.
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SirAF said:
The bottom line is still this though:
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I know. But my point never was, that it's not illegal. My point is, that it's not impossible. Things don't have to be legal to happen.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
The policy related problems result directly from the flaws in the institutions. In other words, part of the problem IS the way the Senate and Electoral College grant overwhelming power to rural minorities. How the Supreme Court interpretations affect the laws that can be passed by Congress, how outdated institutions designed in the 18th century simply don't have the ability to keep up with modern lobbying. This is why Thomas Jefferson believed in a living constitution because he, unlike some of the other framers, realized that times like now would arrive when the institutions created in 1789 simply don't have the ability to form the most optimal government.

The last meaningful Constitutional Amendment was 49 years ago.
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I don’t think you will get democrats to accept that these institutions are not just flawed but also help maintain the status quo of systematic racism that we keep seeing recreated everywhere. This is why we can’t have any meaningful changes when it comes to criminal justice reform.
 
entropy said:
I don’t think you will get democrats to accept that these institutions are not just flawed but also help maintain the status quo of systematic racism that we keep seeing recreated everywhere. This is why we can’t have any meaningful changes when it comes to criminal justice reform.
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This. Most Dem's I know can be classified as slightly kinder/more accepting republicans.
 
WI_Red said:
I think (and hope) this is the biggest takeaway from the last 4 years. Our government has functioned (to whatever small capacity it has) since its existence based largely on unwritten norms of decency (or at least the pretense of it).
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I think that's a big issue: a lot of things that are supposed to be done in some way, but no legal framework to stop a government from doing things differently. In Canada, the former leader of the Green Party a few years ago said that Canada has a great political system as long as people follow its traditions. To my mind, if it's based on traditions, the sytem is obviously not great and needs proper codification.

It seems the same to me in the US in this time of hyperpartisan politics. Where are the checks and balances, if people can be stopped from testifying in the House, and the Senate simply dismisses (pretty much) something as blatant as the Ukraine thing? Or where is accountability if the Attorney General is supposed to be apolitical but clearly isn't? The consequences might come after their tenures, but in the meantime, the damage is done.

I'm also not confident future presidents will refrain from what Trump, Barr, etc. have now shown to be possible. I'd expect Biden to be a traditionalist who will take things back to how they used to be, but I would not expect that from presidents after him. And why would the DNC play by rules Trump didn't follow? (E.g., in case of another House investigation.)
I would hope this will lead to some real legislation to turn those unwritten rules into law to prevent this. And for the love of all our racist founding fathers, get rid of executive orders!
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Is that actually possible? Cause my worry is that there is no clear solution to these problems, since many of them seem to have their origins in the constitution. I don't know any details about this though.
 
Was thinking about the US election and the fact that its during a pandemic...

How do we think Trump will take it if he loses in Nov and has to stay in charge till Jan... Probably during the time it is expected to be really bad.. It'll also be around the time a vaccine might be ready and plans will have to be made to manufacture and distribute it..

can it work if the 2 parties dont work together? Can they work together?
 
prateik said:
Was thinking about the US election and the fact that its during a pandemic...

How do we think Trump will take it if he loses in Nov and has to stay in charge till Jan... Probably during the time it is expected to be really bad.. It'll also be around the time a vaccine might be ready and plans will have to be made to manufacture and distribute it..

can it work if the 2 parties dont work together? Can they work together?
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He’ll be golfing for two months.
 
Fergies Gum said:
All three front runners have some flaws so it will be a bit of a tricky choice for Biden.





Harris is deeply distrusted by some in Biden's inner circle and raises concern from many Dems that she just has her eye on 2024.

Rice has never been elected to public office. Her son is an outspoken Trump supporter.

Bass has history with Cuba and been complimentary towards Castro which wont go down well in Florida.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/07/karen-bass-cuba-venceremos-brigade/614662
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I’m getting a Tom Brady to Tampa Bay vibe from Rice and the VP spot where, on face value you think no way would Tom move Giselle and family there instead of LA, but the rumor kept hanging around and in retrospect it was not as outlandish an idea as it seemed.

I realize that might be a terrible analogy for many of you, but I’m going with it.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
I’m getting a Tom Brady to Tampa Bay vibe from Rice and the VP spot where, on face value you think no way would Tom move Giselle and family there instead of LA, but the rumor kept hanging around and in retrospect it was not as outlandish an idea as it seemed.

I realize that might be a terrible analogy for many of you, but I’m going with it.
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I’d probably take Rice over the other two. Harris just seems like a hot mess waiting to happen and Bass is a total minnow.
 
I like Rice as a choice. Experienced, smart, respected and known on the world stage. Definitely better than Harris.

Still hope for Warrenbut what can you do.
 
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