[CORBYN]He's winning the argument.[/CORBYN]
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
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[CORBYN]He's winning the argument.[/CORBYN]
This is the first and most important thing you need to identify before embarking on an election campaign. If you don't think you'e able to obtain this based on your ideals, then you need to compromise. Simple. Completely accept that a lot of people were attracted to Bernie because of his uncompromising attitude towards the status quo - I certainly was - but it wasn't enough people.
Biden has 8 years of serving loyally alongside Obama on top of decades of working closely with black and minority communities. Bernie, despite marching in the 60s and 70s, simply hasn't got that same standing and trust there. That's not a criticism of Bernie, but more a nod to the good work Biden has done over his impressive political career (something the left should really acknowledge if they're to make positive inroads in their dissection as to where and how it went wrong for Bernie).
Despite Bernie trying to posit himself as a beacon of hope to minority voters - which he did successfully with the Latino vote in the West - idealogical differences also played a big role. Many minority voters come from conservative (small "c") communities, but due to rather unpleasant and obvious reasons, can never find a political home in the current Republican setup. Biden ticked all the necessary boxes for this cleanup, and this is fundamentally why the likes of Clyburn felt compelled to endorse. Biden is the candidate who can garner the necessary mass support, and also get people out to vote.
I'm not overly convinced the endorsement from Warren would have propelled Bernie massively either, and the fact she didn't just further highlights the ease at which the left can fracture and turn against itself. We've seen it in the UK a fair bit recently.
They didn’t suspend elections for a civil war, so seems unlikely they would for a disease. Also from the Republicans perspective you’d have to imagine their supporters are far more likely to come out and vote regardless given how little they care about science.
Glad Bernie is staying in for the debate on Sunday. If that doesn't go well and he doesn't make any ground, it's time to call it a day.
Do words have meaning anymore? he literally wrote the crime bill that has destroyed black families and still continues to do so today. He was vice president to deporter in chief Obama. But sure please tell us how Biden is great at working with minorities but somehow Bernie isn't.
100% agree. This is huge. Looking at the exit polls and seeing the answers that voters are ANGRY at trump policies and him in general. We want him GONE now. You are seeing it state after state issues are important but to these voters, to me, Trump being booted is absolutely imperative. Its minorities, LGBT, and the poor who are most in danger, and targeted from his racist policies. Biden obviously can't stand Trump personally. He was right by Obama's side when he was under the racist birtherism crap. He was see as right in the thick of it when Mitch McConnell was blocking everything Obama wanted to do.
People see that is coasting on Obama's name and that's partially true. But, it may be difficult to understand that is big for an electorate that is looking for someone that can stand with them in palpable hatred for trump AND get the votes from white voters.
Sanders is no fan of Trump either.
Ah mate, but he got arrested in Sud Afrika protesting apartheid, that's got to count extra.
Deporter in Chief who is massively upheld in these communities? Who Bernie desperately included in his advertising over the last week once it became obvious what was going on?
Hmmm.
Your opinion of black democrats must be pretty low then, given about 90% of them are choosing to vote for life-ruiner Joe Biden.
Voters can only vote based on the information they consume. If I ONLY watched CNN or the main nightly news, I would probably be all in on Biden as well. Speaking in generalities of course.
They might also make the calculation that his previous record doesn't matter as long as he isn't Trump. His record supporting segregation was brought up in a deabte by Kamala Harris, so it wasn't hidden. (Of course, she has endorsed him, showing how deep her commitments are.)
And it's in general, once again, not only black people, but older voters making the same priority, and you can even see it on twitter. There was someone who said she would vote for Mussolini if the DNC selected him to get rid of Trump*, and that extreme might be an outlier but it's a common sentiment.
*lost the screenshot sadly
@Beachryan @groovyalbert are you always this nuanced? not only are you gaslighting but also being completely disingenuous about communities that are most vulnerable and deserve lot better than Jim Crow Biden.
There were many versions of compromised Bernie on the stage. Warren is the most prominent, there was also Beto and Harris who positioned themselves between Bernie and Biden in the centre-left. None of them gained any traction whatsoever. I think part of Bernie's appeal is his no-compromise, and he would be at a net zero or loss if he reversed that.
The Obama link I get, I'm not sure I buy the decades of working. He utterly failed in his 1988 and 2008 presidential bids, and at that time I don't think he was touting a special bond with black voters. His actual voting record isn't great to say the least.
Agreed about the endorsements. I again think this was a game of image and electability - if Bernie did better in the 1st two (got the headlines from Iowa and a substantial win from NH), on top of his Nevada win, he would look like the one. This is why I think so:
(They should have included a pre-Iowa to show the full pattern). I think the evidence is very strong that people think the frontrunner is electable, and they vote for the one they think is electable.
Agree that the Warren endorsements wasn't a sure-shot, but it would have changed the image on day when Biden looked like the party unifier. (Another thing that changed in polling - who do you think can unify the party, skyrockets after those endorsements).
Edit - i'm also skeptical that some compromise after 40 years of being on the left would have earned bernie the clyburn endorsement.
Rubbish. Right now the most vulnerable communities are suffering more than they have in decades under the demented stewardship of an egomaniacal demagogue, and what is pertinently clear from the last few weeks is the rooted desire within these communities to remove him from office.
Personally, from what we've seen from Bernie, he didn't have the means to gain enough support from wavering demographics - and to beat Trump, you need to chip away at those who voted for him, as well as galvanise voters who perhaps didn't come out in 2016.
I assume you'll be backing Jim Crow Biden in November, given your reasons for supporting Bernie over Sanders during primaries?
There were many versions of compromised Bernie on the stage. Warren is the most prominent, there was also Beto and Harris who positioned themselves between Bernie and Biden in the centre-left. None of them gained any traction whatsoever. I think part of Bernie's appeal is his no-compromise, and he would be at a net zero or loss if he reversed that.
The Obama link I get, I'm not sure I buy the decades of working. He utterly failed in his 1988 and 2008 presidential bids, and at that time I don't think he was touting a special bond with black voters. His actual voting record isn't great to say the least.
Agreed about the endorsements. I again think this was a game of image and electability - if Bernie did better in the 1st two (got the headlines from Iowa and a substantial win from NH), on top of his Nevada win, he would look like the one. This is why I think so:
(They should have included a pre-Iowa to show the full pattern). I think the evidence is very strong that people think the frontrunner is electable, and they vote for the one they think is electable.
Agree that the Warren endorsements wasn't a sure-shot, but it would have changed the image on day when Biden looked like the party unifier. (Another thing that changed in polling - who do you think can unify the party, skyrockets after those endorsements).
Edit - i'm also skeptical that some compromise after 40 years of being on the left would have earned bernie the clyburn endorsement.
That's a fair point, but equally - with the benefit of hindsight - an argument suggesting that, right now, there is a ceiling to the amount of support progressive/left politics has in the US. This is probably the furthest it can currently go, similarly to 2016, although I'd argue less so given Clinton's unpopularity/underlying societal sexism towards her.
I really hope we see Biden acknowledging that there needs to be a space for Bernie/Warren supporters in the Democratic party - and that mainstream politics has to listen to their genuine concerns. If not, there is real danger for the Democrats moving forward, whether they win in November or not. Equally, I hope that progressives (I include myself here), are willing to accept any olive branches offered by Biden. The arguments are good and popular (look at exit polling on free healthcare across all states!), but they need to find a home in the heart of US politics to be realised.
Right now the goal is to get this monster out of office. If Biden is the candidate then Bernies Bros or whatever their called need to step up and back Biden. They can worry about ideals and major changes in the next election. They have the right path and ideals but it’s just not going to happen right now. He (Trump)needs to go.
My dude Latinos overwhelming support Sanders. They are literally telling you which candidate they believe in. Too bad the dnc or MSM wants to look the other way. A vote for Biden is a slap in the face for anyone facing deportation or have to live in constant fear of someone from ICE knocking on their doors. We all know how many people Biden and Obama deported. There is literally a video of Biden saying “we put kids in cages but not as many as trump”. Biden is a terrible politician with an even terrible record. His record is there for everyone to see. You are gaslighting by claiming that Obama or Biden has high favorability and it is disgusting.
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And what about the black votes that came out over 90% in favour of Biden for similar reasons regarding removing Trump?
Sanders has done amazingly well to galvanise he Latino vote, and they are 100% a community that is right now facing the very worst from Trump's administration. But to say that there's a legitimate comparison between Trump and Biden is way off the mark, and I say that as someone who isn't a particularly dedicated Biden supporter.
Which one is currently proving an existential threat to Roe v Wade, and threatening the rights of women across a number of states? Which one is arguably the greatest political solo threat to climate change in the world? And which one is at this very moment drastically and dangerously down-playing, both in terms of rhetoric and action, a virus set to spread across the country?
It may be depressing, but Biden is unquestionably a better choice for progressives and minority communities - even is that reason firmly lies in the fact he simply isn't Trump.
My dude, Latinos will vote as a block for Biden if he's the nominee.
You seem to be very keen to use buzzwords mr. nuance. 'do words have meaning anymore'? 'gaslighting'? I'm not going to defend my record on articulated opinions around politics on this forum or elsewhere, if you're curious I'm sure there is a search function.
You want nuance? How's this: Bernie Sanders could have won the nomination if he was a better politician. Not a better progressive, or a more principled man, or more committed. This is not a competition to see who is more progressive. It's not a competition to see who has better ideas. It's a competition to convince voters to vote for you. That is a complicated thing, made up of an almost limitless number of factors, both macro and micro.
I'm not currently living in the US. I'm a liberal. I believe in universal health care, free daycare, free college and that universal basic income will become a necessity for society not to crumble in the next 2 decades or so. I would love nothing more than an American Presidential candidate who could make this happen. In fact, just a few months ago I wondered if the one silver lining of Trump's absolute trainwreck would be a pendulum shift towards it. Bernie is the most vocal of these policies. So I was enthusiastic about his apparent success.
And he did well in the early states. But that's because a) Iowa is weird and b) he was only winning because the majority of voters were splitting their votes. The second they started dropping out, and it was more of a straight shot, he started losing. Votes. As in human beings voting for their preference. Not losing because the media made their choices, or because the evil DNC were casting false ballots. Because voters didn't like him as a candidate as much as they did Biden.
Bernie could have, in the last 2 months, addressed his main weakness: that he's viewed as unelectable, because he's too radical for the moderates whose votes are required for him to win. He could have given speeches about how he's no more radical than FDR (which he spoke well on last year). He could have said he's not a socialist, and that labels are unimportant, he's about healthcare and education. He could reached out to the moderate side of the party and made compromises, could have done any number of 'softening' PR puff pieces. You know, he could have been a better politician.
But here we are. He didn't. And so Joe Biden will be the candidate. And your point, lest we revisit that, was that Joe Biden (and Barack Obama) were terrible for black Americans. To which I say, who do I listen to, this random redcaf poster, or if only I had some way of hearing the opinion of millions of black Americans. Oh, hey ho, I do! And it was last week! And this week! Behold the riches of new information! And those black American voters overwhelmingly and categorically have voted for this Joe Biden candidate.
So either you think that the black Americans who just voted are unable to make their own decisions (at which point maybe you should just choose for them?), or maybe, just maybe your point of view isn't shared by the very people you're saying had their lives ruined?
Finally, for the love of God google the term gaslighting, you're using it wrong.
Someone actually watched this
Since it seems good old electoralism has failed(Yet again) there really isn't a better time to get into the old marxism. These videos are a great start but also luckily there's a ton other accessible stuff online these days as well. I mean this seems a pretty good summary of the primaries tbh
Because I’m aware that Trumpism style of politics doesn’t end with Trump. Republican party is changed for this way for the foreseeable future. One disappointing Democratic presidency will lead us back to square one. Obama’s eight years paved the way to Trump and Biden is seen as a return to the “great” Obama years, with Obama being ten times the politician Biden is.
Honestly, this just seems like baseless fear-mongering. Never mind the fact that the worst will almost certainly be over by November, can the President even cancel an election in any way? And what would be the end goal? Because if he's unpopular (which is a given in your hypothetical), then postponing the elections is only going to make him more unpopular. I hope you're not entertaining the thought that he could be President "indefinitely". That's a coup, and it wouldn't stand.
FDR and Kennedy, two Dem heroes, say hi.
The threadbanning of Red Dreams has been a game changer.
Another Trump Jnr talking point...
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/obama-as-deporter-in-chief-hardly/
Also curious if you will give credit to Biden for the good things Obama did?
Seems to be a lot of talk that Sanders should drop out... 2 weeks after Biden was told to drop out. What is the rush? November is 8 months away. Let them debate fairly and let everyone decide. At this rate Gabbard is going to win the nomination.
There’s always a terribly important goal that just can’t wait. First it was Bush and then making sure the likes of Cruz couldn’t take over and then Trump and so on and so forth. There will never be a time when the moderates think it’s ‘safe’ to go for a progressive. It’s always ‘wait for the next election’ and when that comes there’s always another critical reason why now just isn’t the time.
You're right and thst's a shame but until my generation fecks off into oblivion we are stuck with crap politicians. I feel the same as you. Just let's hope things change quicker in the very near future. Meanwhile he has to go
Biden voters can really see themselves in their candidate, I imagine.
Climate change is so essential that we need to put Sanders on the seat my dudes. Oh wait, he's not the candidate? There's no big difference between Trump and Biden, huehuehue
Amen.
Especially if Biden chooses one of their own - Beto - as his VP.
Bone dry
The difference is, Bernie supporters started declaring victory after 3 meaningless primaries in three initial, tiny states. Things are very different now. At this point Biden has secured almost enough electoral votes to project at least plurality, and very soon (March 17th) if everything goes according to polls will have secured enough votes to win. Bernie still campaigning beyond that is meaningless and just damages democratic unity / general election chances overall.
But he's a bitter guy, a sore loser who did exactly the same in 2016, so will very likely do the same this time around as well.
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You know it's possible for people to vote for politicians that make their lives worse off, right ? This is basically the whole Biden argument, you'll suffer less with Biden than with Trump.
Anyway here's Obama record
How Obama Destroyed Black Wealth
https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/obama-foreclosure-crisis-wealth-inequality
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