2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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Raoul said:
I would imagine his policies would be similar to Obama's.
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If the Dems want to win in 2020 there are three crucial large groups they need a strategy for:
  • Globalization's Losers
  • Libertarian leaning Independents that went for Johnson or stayed home
  • Progressives that Obama turned out in 2008 that gave HRC the middle finger

Biden doesn't have appeal to any of those three groups.
 
Red Dreams said:
They would be worse.
Biden is a DINO.
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On the contrary, he is an actual Democrat. It's the progressives who are generally exogenous to the party, which is not coincidentally why they are supporting a guy who has spent the last 40 plus years as an independent - or a "DINO".
 
Raoul said:
I think his plan is to become President. And falling short, he is probably setting himself up as an attractive VP option.

It seems like a 3 horse race at this point but I wouldn't discount anyone polling above 2-3% at this point since the guy who became President in 2008 spent all of 2017 down by double digits and actually never led in any poll until January of 2008. I wouldn't therefore eliminate the likelihood that something similar could happen again.
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If Bernie were 10 years younger, he would be leading easily.
It is his age that is holding some people back.
He is clearly a much more genuine candidate than Warren who is clearly someone who will not actively go against the party.
I don't want to think she is lying about what she says about Health Care and Student Debt and Education.

As for the Democratic party, they will fight tooth and nail to push Biden because he is solid corporate man. Even if it is clear he is a much weaker candidate than Hillary.
They will risk the probability he will lose in the GE because they would have the lesser of two evils from a business perspective. Trump as compared to Bernie.
 
Raoul said:
On the contrary, he is an actual Democrat. It's the progressives who are generally exogenous to the party, which is not coincidentally why they are supporting a guy who has spent the last 40 plus years as an independent.
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The Clinton cnuts rammed the party to corporate neoliberalism and left the FDR/LBJ constituency behind, being an "actual Democrat" is meaningless tripe.
 
Red Dreams said:
If Bernie were 10 years younger, he would be leading easily.
It is his age that is holding some people back.
He is clearly a much more genuine candidate than Warren who is clearly someone who will not actively go against the party.
I don't want to think she is lying about what she says about Health Care and Student Debt and Education.

As for the Democratic party, they will fight tooth and nail to push Biden because he is solid corporate man. Even if it is clear he is a much weaker candidate than Hillary.
They will risk the probability he will lose in the GE because they would have the lesser of two evils from a business perspective. Trump as compared to Bernie.
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He may get a couple of percent more if he was pushing 70 and not 80, but that's not his problem.
 
Raoul said:
On the contrary, he is an actual Democrat. It's the progressives who are generally exogenous to the party, which is not coincidentally why they are supporting a guy who has spent the last 40 plus years as an independent - or a "DINO".
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The Democratic Party has ceased to represent working people for decades. Why many have turned away or do not show up.
But if you mean the current business party. Yes he does represent that.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If the Dems want to win in 2020 there are three crucial large groups they need a strategy for:
  • Globalization's Losers
  • Libertarian leaning Independents that went for Johnson or stayed home
  • Progressives that Obama turned out in 2008 that gave HRC the middle finger

Biden doesn't have appeal to any of those three groups.
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In a nutshell.

The strategy of depending on numbers as opposed to passion which results in turnout is a gamble the corporations that own the party are willing to take.
 
The corporations that own the Democratic party do not see themselves as evil.
They are business people whose goal is to maximise profit and consolidation of their power.
They would prefer as little waves/turmoil as possible. They do not want to deal with racism, riots and other disruptions.
But they would rather that than a direct attack on their infrastructure that a truly progressive agenda represents.
The last thing they want is a grassroots democracy.

The grown man knows the world he lives in.

But the way to change things is not to give in.
 
Red Dreams said:
The corporations that own the Democratic party do not see themselves as evil.
They are business people whose goal is to maximise profit and consolidation of their power.
They would prefer as little waves/turmoil as possible. They do not want to deal with racism, riots and other disruptions.
But they would rather that than a direct attack on their infrastructure that a truly progressive agenda represents.
The last thing they want is a grassroots democracy.

The grown man knows the world he lives in.

But the way to change things is not to give in.
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:lol: What is this, some sort of poem ?

BTW...which corporation that "owns the Dems" has forced a majority of voters to vote a certain way ?
 
Raoul said:
BTW...which corporation that "owns the Dems" has forced a majority of voters to vote a certain way ?
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Do you believe corporate conglomerates have zero influence on voter preference? All the hundreds of millions they spend on marketing, PR, etc has no effect on the public?

Do you believe Rush, Hannity, Koch's Sinclair media, etc have had zero effect on the public preferences of the last 30 years?
 
Red Dreams said:
The Democratic Party has ceased to represent working people for decades. Why many have turned away or do not show up.
But if you mean the current business party. Yes he does represent that.
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Red Dreams said:
The current Democratic party is the creator of Trump and others that will come after him.
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Red Dreams said:
In a nutshell.

The strategy of depending on numbers as opposed to passion which results in turnout is a gamble the corporations that own the party are willing to take.
Click to expand...

Red Dreams said:
The corporations that own the Democratic party do not see themselves as evil.
They are business people whose goal is to maximise profit and consolidation of their power.
They would prefer as little waves/turmoil as possible. They do not want to deal with racism, riots and other disruptions.
But they would rather that than a direct attack on their infrastructure that a truly progressive agenda represents.
The last thing they want is a grassroots democracy.

The grown man knows the world he lives in.

But the way to change things is not to give in.
Click to expand...

0eCUjTH.png
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Do you believe corporate conglomerates have zero influence on voter preference? All the hundreds of millions they spend on marketing, PR, etc has no effect on the public?

Do you believe Rush, Hannity, Koch's Sinclair media, etc have had zero effect on the public preferences of the last 30 years?
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TV pundits - definitely yes. The corporations who own large networks obviously play an offsetting role (some swing left, some right). Other than that, its all about voter preference relative their cultural and economic interests etc.
 
Raoul said:
TV pundits - definitely yes. The corporations who own large networks obviously play an offsetting role (some swing left, some right). Other than that, its all about voter preference relative their cultural and economic interests etc.
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Marketing and PR influence cultural and economic preferences. You should look up how the Mormons' marketing influenced Prop. 8 in California in 2008 for one case study among hundreds.

And ultimately people vote on moral value frames.
 
Raoul said:
:lol: What is this, some sort of poem ?

BTW...which corporation that "owns the Dems" has forced a majority of voters to vote a certain way ?
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Raoul.

Are you seriously saying that businesses that spend billions on buying influence do not know what they are doing?
No one is forcing anyone.

What is advertising?

Ah. I see @oneniltothearsenal has addressed this.
 
Red Dreams said:
Raoul.

Are you seriously saying that businesses that spend billions on buying influence do not know what they are doing?
No one is forcing anyone.

What is advertising?

Ah. I see @oneniltothearsenal has addressed this.
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Advertising is a normal part of the world we live in and isn't going away. The problem is big money in elections which is a judicial/regulatory issue that has to be changed by the courts.
 
Raoul said:
Advertising is a normal part of the world we live in and isn't going away. The problem is big money in elections which is a judicial/regulatory issue that has to be changed by the courts.
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Its a much larger issue.

But to address what you said. How do you change that?

Certainly not by replicating the same process.
A Biden will not fight to change it.
He is the perfect rubber stamp.
 
Red Dreams said:
Its a much larger issue.

But to address what you said. How do you change that?

Certainly not by replicating the same process.
A Biden will not fight to change it.
He is the perfect rubber stamp.
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Overturning citizens united would be a good start, which will be achieved by any Dem getting elected.
 
Raoul said:
Overturning citizens united would be a good start, which will be achieved by any Dem getting elected.
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Yeah I don't see that at all. I have zero faith in Biden working to overturn Citizens United. He'll just form some committee with his corporate donors and insist they have to have a seat at the table and they will kill anything like that.

Can't trust Biden with his record.
 
Raoul said:
Overturning citizens united would be a good start, which will be achieved by any Dem getting elected.
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If and that is a big IF, it can be overturned it would be a good step in the right direction.

But the bigger issue I was referring to is the role of media and what their role needs to be.
You can have differing opinions, not differing facts.

If the media allows Journalists to present facts to inform the public rather than what is happening now we would make huge strides in the right direction.
For example if all the facts about Single Payer were known, almost everyone with the possible exception of brokers and those employed in the Health Insurance industry would vote for Single Payer.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah I was joking.

Not sure why 26% of current Bernie voters would vote for Trump instead of Warren other than a lack of political education.
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This is why I do not believe such polls.

I can see a no vote/Bernie write in or 3rd party vote.
Personally unless Warren turns out to be a Harris, I will vote for her as a second choice.

If Bernie is the nominee, Nina Turner will be his VP. Of that I am certain.
The Dems will not want to lose a Senate seat.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah I was joking.

Not sure why 26% of current Bernie voters would vote for Trump instead of Warren other than a lack of political education.
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It woudn't be too far fetched since about 26% of Sanders supporters voted for someone other than Hillary in the 16 Gen. And a large chunk of that 26% went to Trump.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah I was joking.

Not sure why 26% of current Bernie voters would vote for Trump instead of Warren other than a lack of political education.
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Because Bernie voters are not all progressives.

Bernie's economic populism appeals to people outside the banal Dem-Rep establishment dichotomy. Globalization Losers for instance might vote Bernie > Trump but they will vote Trump > HRC and Biden.
Again not all Bernie voters are progressive, a fact the Democrats forget at their own peril. People like Michael Moore keep trying to tell people this
 
Raoul said:
It woudn't be too far fetched since about 26% of Sanders supporters voted for someone other than Hillary in the 16 Gen. And a large chunk of that was votes for Trump, Stein, and Johnson.
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The 'Bernie votes for Trump of 2016' will not be replicated this cycle imo.
He conned many people. Even speaking of Single payer and /or at least providing a much better health care system and Infrastructure spending.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Because Bernie voters are not all progressives.

Bernie's economic populism appeals to people outside the banal Dem-Rep establishment dichotomy. Globalization Losers for instance might vote Bernie > Trump but they will vote Trump > HRC and Biden.
Again not all Bernie voters are progressive, a fact the Democrats forget at their own peril. People like Michael Moore keep trying to tell people this
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This is true.

Came up in several discussions with disenchanted Republicans.
 
Don't believe for a second that Bernie supporters would vote for Trump. Unless they never cared about the policies in the first place.
 
Drifter said:
Don't believe for a second that Bernie supporters would vote for Trump. Unless they never cared about the policies in the first place.
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Bernie supporters and Bernie voters are not one and the same. Just like Trump supporters and Trump voters are not one and the same.
 
fishfingers15 said:
It's a hypothetical scenario anyway, Bernie Sanders will be the nominee. The only question is if Warren joins him on his ticket.
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If he wins I don't think he will pick Warren(I don't thin Warren would say yes even if he did). They are both way too different on quite a lot of issues.

oneniltothearsenal said:
Because Bernie voters are not all progressives.

Bernie's economic populism appeals to people outside the banal Dem-Rep establishment dichotomy. Globalization Losers for instance might vote Bernie > Trump but they will vote Trump > HRC and Biden.
Again not all Bernie voters are progressive, a fact the Democrats forget at their own peril. People like Michael Moore keep trying to tell people this
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Yeah although that get back to the point about these people lacking political education.
 
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