10 'torture' techniques blessed by Bush

Agreed.

It was also the manner in which the whole affair was carried out. The whole build up, the lies, no sensitivities regards culture, religion or it's people.

The British had far fewer problems, because on the whole they acted as a police force rather than invaders.

The fact it also came so soon after Afghanistan, and from a neo-con government also antagonised the Muslim world.

done far more than 'antagonise' bro. Since 9/11, Ive lived in Mumbai and spent alot of time through my work in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan etc.

There is a totally different view on the whole 'war on terror'. Muslims feel under attack and persecuted and so have very different views on Bin laden etc. As said above, Gitmo and the illegal invasion on Iraq are the 2 factors that have provided the tipping point.
 
done far more than 'antagonise' bro. Since 9/11, Ive lived in Mumbai and spent alot of time through my work in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan etc.

There is a totally differnt view on the whole 'war on terror'. Muslims feel under attack and percesuted and so have very differnt views on Bin laden etc. As said above, Gitmo and the illegal invasion on Iraq are the 2 factors that have provided the tipping point.

They won´t get much sympathy - they get more persecuted by their own than they ever do by the West
 
Plech i think you're completely misinterpreting the mindset that takes place immediately following an attack. The Government tightens up in fear of other imminent attacks and a celebration of civil liberties generally slips to the bottom of the priority list because the Government has to do whatever is necessary to protect its people. Once safety has been reestablished, then they can take a step back and evaluate its best practices and see what it could improve should something similar happen again. Unfortunately, the US was caught completely off guard during the 9/11 attacks. The mentality that ensued was one of security first. The fact that there haven't been any more attacks since then is a testament to the success of the Government's posture following 9/11.

Kinell. Well, it sounds to me like your answer to my question -

Raoul, in a time of national emergency, is anything wrong?

- is 'No'.

In that case, there's no point discussing it anymore, because we can't agree on a premise.

I know you've been in Iraq, I know you've seen the kind of ruthlessness of the people we're fighting. I'm not trying blacken the names of all the good men you've worked with. And I'm not trying to claim foreigners should have jurisdiction over your officials and soldiers.

What I need from you to enable us to have a conversation is for you to say something like, "Yes, Plech, clearly some things are on principle unacceptable. Yes, I draw lines. Whatever the circumstances, it would be wrong, for instance, to kidnap suspected terrorists' children and then cut their fingers off one by one till the terrorists answered our questions. Even though that might be an effective way of stopping the next terrorist atrocity. The people responsible for that - both those who authorised it and those who obeyed orders and carried it out, would have to be brought to trial and severely punished."

We could then have a discussion about what happened at Guantanamo and elsewhere, and whether it was close enough to your line in the sand to require the matter to be settled in court. You might have good reasons to think not. You might even convince me. But we would agree that the unchecked power of the state over the lives of individuals, even in emergencies, is a bad thing.

Failing that, I can only assume that the evidence over six years on the Caf, that you're a reasonable and intelligent bloke, is wrong, and conclude that you are in fact a bit of a fascist maniac.

atta boy Fletch- logic exposes their weaknesses ;)

Cheers topper. I assume by 'Fletch' you mean charging round excitedly without achieving very much...? ;)
 
Kinell. Well, it sounds to me like your answer to my question -



- is 'No'.

In that case, there's no point discussing it anymore, because we can't agree on a premise.

I know you've been in Iraq, I know you've seen the kind of ruthlessness of the people we're fighting. I'm not trying blacken the names of all the good men you've worked with. And I'm not trying to claim foreigners should have jurisdiction over your officials and soldiers.

What I need from you to enable us to have a conversation is for you to say something like, "Yes, Plech, clearly some things are on principle unacceptable. Yes, I draw lines. Whatever the circumstances, it would be wrong, for instance, to kidnap suspected terrorists' children and then cut their fingers off one by one till the terrorists answered our questions. Even though that might be an effective way of stopping the next terrorist atrocity. The people responsible for that - both those who authorised it and those who obeyed orders and carried it out, would have to be brought to trial and severely punished."

We could then have a discussion about what happened at Guantanamo and eslewhere, and whether it was close enough to your line in the sand to require the matter to be settled in court. You might have good reasons to think not. You might even convince me. But we would agree that the unchecked power of the state over the lives of individuals, even in emergencies, is a bad thing.

Failing that, I can only assume that the evidence over six years on the Caf, that you're a reasonable and intelligent bloke, is wrong, and conclude that you are in fact a bit of a fascist maniac.



Cheers topper. I assume by 'Fletch' you mean charging round excitedly without achieving very much...? ;)



:) A Rose by any other etc etc - for me you´re achieving much and long may it continue
 
I know you've been in Iraq, I know you've seen the kind of ruthlessness of the people we're fighting. I'm not trying blacken the names of all the good men you've worked with. And I'm not trying to claim foreigners should have jurisdiction over your officials and soldiers.

Thanks for pointing this out as my time in Afghanistan and Iraq has definitely changed my view on this particular issue. I wouldn't bother spending time arguing about this topic if I didn't have a bit of insight on what truly goes on here.


What I need from you to enable us to have a conversation is for you to say something like, "Yes, Plech, clearly some things are on principle unacceptable. Yes, I draw lines. Whatever the circumstances, it would be wrong, for instance, to kidnap suspected terrorists' children and then cut their fingers off one by one till the terrorists answered our questions. Even though that might be an effective way of stopping the next terrorist atrocity. The people responsible for that - both those who authorised it and those who obeyed orders and carried it out, would have to be brought to trial and severely punished."

Of course there are plenty of brutal scenarios where most sensible people would draw the line on what is or isn't acceptable based on their own convictions. We can all agree on this. What we differ on, purely on personal opinion, are the methodologies. I am not a fan of any of them, but i want the professionals who work in these respective fields to have the ability to evaluate which of them work or don't work - not a group of people who are at odds with US foreign policy and don't have the country's security or best interests at heart - all of which is cloaked under concern for humanitarian issues. Regarding your point on prosecution, there may be a public inquiry to harrass a few former members of the Bush administration, but there will never be any retribution for the professional interrogators who were doing their jobs. Obama knows how to read public opinion, and he isn't going to do anything to uproot his national agenda, or cast the country into a dramatic debate about a distantly ancillary issue that most people who are struggling economically have no interest in deliberating.
 
They won´t get much sympathy - they get more persecuted by their own than they ever do by the West

sympathy from who? I don't think they want your sympathy. :wenger: as for your 'persecution' thought, its just an amazingly blinkered view. Most people in whatever country they live are patriotic to there country and committed to their faith way before any 'desire' to get sympathy from the west.

Bizarre comment
 
Of course there are plenty of brutal scenarios where most sensible people would draw the line on what is or isn't acceptable based on their own convictions. We can all agree on this. What we differ on, purely on personal opinion, are the methodologies. I am not a fan of any of them, but i want the professionals who work in these respective fields to have the ability to evaluate which of them work or don't work - not a group of people who are at odds with US foreign policy and don't have the country's security or best interests at heart - all of which is cloaked under concern for humanitarian issues.

The thing is the vast majority of people who are experts have gone on record to say that these 'torture techniques' do not work, a small range of which Rob kindly posted on the previous page. Everywhere I look for opinions of these 'professionals' that you talk about say that torture does not achieve the objectives for which it used. Please show me a volume of evidence from reputable people who endorse your position.

Of course that is aside from the primary issue most people have on this which is that it is just plainly inhumane behaviour and morally wrong. Even if it did produce evidence, the means can never justify the end in this case.
 
Regarding your point on prosecution, there may be a public inquiry to harass a few former members of the Bush administration, but there will never be any retribution for the professional interrogators who were doing their jobs. Obama knows how to read public opinion, and he isn't going to do anything to uproot his national agenda, or cast the country into a dramatic debate about a distantly ancillary issue that most people who are struggling economically have no interest in deliberating.

That may be your personal wish, but I hope a very different scenario happens. Does that mean that all Hitlers soldiers were innocent for just following orders? I'm sorry but thats bull. We all have a responsibility to question everything we do. We are all responsible for our own actions. Every single one of these 'professionals' as you call them did not have to carry out these orders. They could have said no and taken whatever consequences that subsequently arose.

Im guessing that a 'professional' who is trained in 'water-boarding' is a pretty sick individual who probably takes pleasure in such activity. I mean how the feck do you train and become a professional in that? Utter madness. I hope they put these sick people in electric chairs and give them some of there own medicine. How about 80 electric shock attacks to the brink of death before the final big one? That would be about right I would think.
 
That may be your personal wish, but I hope a very different scenario happens. Does that mean that all Hitlers soldiers were innocent for just following orders? I'm sorry but thats bull. We all have a responsibility to question everything we do. We are all responsible for our own actions. Every single one of these 'professionals' as you call them did not have to carry out these orders. They could have said no and taken whatever consequences that subsequently arose.

Im guessing that a 'professional' who is trained in 'water-boarding' is a pretty sick individual who probably takes pleasure in such activity. I mean how the feck do you train and become a professional in that? Utter madness. I hope they put these sick people in electric chairs and give them some of there own medicine. How about 80 electric shock attacks to the brink of death before the final big one? That would be about right I would think.

You seem to be defeating your own argument here Sammy- that is that torture shouldn't take place in civilized countries just because it does in uncivilized ones, and yet those who do it should be sent to the electric chair. Where's the consistency in your position ? :)
 
You seem to be defeating your own argument here Sammy- that is that torture shouldn't take place in civilized countries just because it does in uncivilized ones, and yet those who do it should be sent to the electric chair. Where's the consistency in your position ? :)

am just applying the laws of the USA to its citizens. Who am I to belittle its wonderful moral and legal system? :)
 
Apparently, someone didn't like my posting the documentary. Since yesterday my computer slid into a rapid decline of health. Fortunately, I have great support that spent the past 10 hours cleaning out 25 different viral/spyware from my system.


I'd like to offer a nice big 'feck YOU', if it was someone from this site.


Up and running again.


;)
 
You seem to be defeating your own argument here Sammy- that is that torture shouldn't take place in civilized countries just because it does in uncivilized ones, and yet those who do it should be sent to the electric chair. Where's the consistency in your position ? :)

:lol:
 
You seem to be defeating your own argument here Sammy- that is that torture shouldn't take place in civilized countries just because it does in uncivilized ones, and yet those who do it should be sent to the electric chair. Where's the consistency in your position ? :)


Throughout this thread, for that matter for the past several years, this post wraps up your twisted belief system up nicely.


The one thing that you haven't explained in any convincing manner... What exactly have you seen in the Middle East to justify foregoing what has been deemed torture under American law since the US Civil War?

*Cue: Raoul's 7 year old giggle response.
_____________________________

I wanted to give a mention to the other documentary that I watched over the weekend, the one titled 'The War Tapes'.


It is a 100% slant of the American soldier perspective. There are three soldiers that carry digital cameras taping their experiences on Hum-V missions. They very openly admit that they and most foreign soldiers to the region are bringing lots of ignorance which translates into racism.


As in the several other (3-4) documentaries that I've seen, - this documentary doesn't seem to edit in a way that gives greater focus on what's wrong about the occupation of Iraq, as much as telling the story of what it's like for an American to participate in such a conflict. - the soldiers point out that they are not trained properly, the come from a place of 'fight' - in a place where the characteristics of diplomacy are needed.


The tone of the documentary almost played out like a recruitment ad... until the one soldier from New Hampshire explains that he speaks the language of the Iraqi people because he spent much of his childhood with his military father in Lebanon. He describes this one situation of when he was asked to translate to a family holding a very ill infant... that they would not be allowed to pass through a neighborhood to bring their child to a local clinic. The soldier refused to translate. He told the commanding officer that if they wanted to tell the family 'no', they'd have to contact the someone else to do the job. - He said there were several situations, as such.


That reminded my of the Abu Ghraib situation... The guards, or handlers, or what they had been termed in the prison... they weren't exactly ordered to go as far as they had with the extreme measures of torture. In fact, the Ghosts of Abu Ghraib documentary explains that many of the techniques that had been given a grean-light by Gen. Miller - had been recinded by another General, soon after. Yet, the situation had been allowed to escalate.
 
Brilliant!

We can do you one better in terms of cruelty.

Are we willing to become the very monsters we abhor?


Are you a monster because the British secret services are doing horrid things everyday to terror suspects in secret that keep Sultan and family safe?

Of course not.

Your as spoiled and as cosy as the rest of us who kid ourselves into thinking that all MI6 do is lose laptops.
 
Are you a monster because the British secret services are doing horrid things everyday to terror suspects in secret that keep Sultan and family safe?

Of course not.

Your as spoiled and as cosy as the rest of us who kid ourselves into thinking that all MI6 do is lose laptops.

I'm sure the MI6 can do a great job without resorting to torture. Most countries around the world manage to keep their citizens safe without these abhorrent, and illegal practices.
 
I'm sure the MI6 can do a great job without resorting to torture. Most countries around the world manage to keep their citizens safe without these abhorrent, and illegal practices.

Unfortunately I don´t think thats the case Sultan - If one looks at the Americas sans Canada, Middle East, Africa and Asia - I would hazard a strong guess that virtually every country on these continents employs torture. A sorry indictment of a world that should know better

And what a list of bedfellows the US now keeps company with
 
Are you a monster because the British secret services are doing horrid things everyday to terror suspects in secret that keep Sultan and family safe?

Of course not.

Your as spoiled and as cosy as the rest of us who kid ourselves into thinking that all MI6 do is lose laptops.

If you feel that this particular end justifies the means, you're one step closer to being a monster, as you put it.

A just and democratic society depends on its citizens challenging its wrongs to maintain its ideals. Sultan is doing the right thing. And before you start, no, Israel isn't as just and democratic as Britain. Or even the US.
 
Are you a monster because the British secret services are doing horrid things everyday to terror suspects in secret that keep Sultan and family safe?

Of course not.

Your as spoiled and as cosy as the rest of us who kid ourselves into thinking that all MI6 do is lose laptops.

I've never seen you arguing for restraint. Ever. I've seen you take the moral high ground but I've never seen you argue for it. You are wrong and should be ashamed.
 
Does torture even work? We are yet to see evidence that it does. All the professional interrogators who have spoken out about the issue claim that it doesn't - the Bush administration simply says that they're wrong. Now it turns out that the men the CIA hired to design their "harsh interrogation program" had absolutely NO experience conducting interrogations, according to ABC News.

Still no evidence that torture works, or even any indication that the CIA had good reason to think that it did.
According to current and former government officials, the CIA's secret waterboarding program was designed and assured to be safe by two well-paid psychologists now working out of an unmarked office building in Spokane, Washington. Bruce Jessen and Jim Mitchell, former military officers, together founded Mitchell Jessen and Associates. "The whole intense interrogation concept that we hear about, is essentially their concepts," according to Col. Steven Kleinman, an Air Force interrogator.

But it turns out neither Mitchell nor Jessen had any experience in conducting actual interrogations before the CIA hired them. "They went to two individuals who had no interrogation experience," said Col. Kleinman. "They are not interrogators."

The new documents show the CIA later came to learn that the two psychologists' waterboarding "expertise" was probably "misrepresented" and thus, there was no reason to believe it was "medically safe" or effective. The waterboarding used on al Qaeda detainees was far more intense than the brief sessions used on U.S. military personnel in the training classes.
 
Just curious Chris, other than the methods used under the Bush administration how else would you hope to get information out of a suspected terrorist? Bed time story perhaps?

I don't think you'll find anyone claiming that these techniques provide reliable information all of the time, but they do to a large degree and that's why aggressive interrogation measures have been used ever since Adam and Eve got naked in the garden.

So of course torture works, you'd have to be ridiculously naive (and a liberal) to think that it didn't.
 
Interrogating Torture

by Philip Gourevitch

On November 14, 2003, at Abu Ghraib prison, on the outskirts of Baghdad, six hooded Iraqi prisoners accused by their American jailers of trying to start a riot were brought to the Military Intelligence cellblock and handed over to Corporal Charles A. Graner, Jr., the military-police officer in charge of the night shift. Graner noted in the M.P. logbook that he had instructions from a lieutenant colonel to strip the newcomers, and to subject them to a routine of rough calisthenics designed to disorient, exhaust, terrify, and humiliate them, and to cause them pain. This was standard practice on the M.I. block, and Graner set to work. When one of the prisoners resisted, Graner later told Army investigators, “I bashed him against the wall.” Running hooded prisoners into walls was also standard practice at Abu Ghraib, but this prisoner fell to the floor, and blood ran out from under his hood, and a medic was summoned. In the logbook, Graner wrote that the prisoner required eight stitches on his chin. He helped sew the stitches himself, and he had one of his soldiers photograph the bloodstained scene.

Graner clearly felt that he had nothing to hide. When his company commander, Captain Christopher Brinson, and one of Brinson’s deputies, Master Sergeant Brian Lipinski, stopped by, Graner said, he made the other prisoners crawl to their cells while Brinson and Lipinski watched. Graner also said that, in addition to medics and his superior officers, lawyers from the Judge Advocate General’s Corps frequently visited the cellblock and saw the abuse that went on there. Graner interpreted their presence to be “implied consent that this was all O.K.,” he said. In fact, two days later, Brinson, who in civilian life is a top aide to Representative Mike Rogers, Republican of Alabama, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, issued a Developmental Counselling Form to Graner. Such a form is normally used for reprimands, but what Brinson wrote sounded more like a commendation: “CPL Graner, you are doing a fine job. . . . You have received many accolades. . . . Continue to perform at this level and it will help us succeed at our overall mission.”

That story comes to mind as Americans are seized by belated outrage over the Bush Administration’s policy of practicing torture against prisoners in the war on terror. It was exactly five years ago that some of the photographs that Charles Graner and his comrades took at Abu Ghraib were aired on CBS’s “Sixty Minutes” and published in this magazine. At that time, the Administration claimed that Graner was the mastermind of the abuse represented in the photographs, and that they showed nothing more than the depravity of a group of rogue soldiers who had fallen under his sway. Yet it became almost immediately apparent—and has been confirmed repeatedly in the years since, most recently with President Obama’s decision to release four Bush Administration memorandums seeking to establish a legal justification for the use of torture—that the Abu Ghraib photographs showed not individuals run amok but American policy in action. (From those memos, we now know that Bush Administration lawyers had a technical term for what Charles Graner called bashing a man against a wall. The term is “walling.”)

The natural first reaction on seeing the photographs of American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners in Saddam Hussein’s old dungeons was to ask: Why are we doing such things to them? With time, however, Americans have come increasingly to understand that it is equally appropriate to ask: Why are we doing such things to ourselves? Why dismantle the laws that have made our country worth fighting and dying for against states that torture? Former Vice-President Dick Cheney has said that we must torture because it is effective. That is, at best, a false argument: a crime is not absolved just because it works. (After all, terrorism can be effective.) President Obama, in his press conference last week, cut through the noise to the essence of the issue. Torture, he said, “corrodes the character of a country.”

America is now embroiled in a debate about how, or whether, to hold the true masterminds—the former President, the former Vice-President, the former Defense Secretary, and their top lawyers—to account for their criminal policies. Here, we are on uncharted ground. As a rule, the war-crimes prosecutions of the past century were conducted by a group of states, acting collectively, against the (usually defeated) leaders of another state. When states hold their own leaders to account, it tends to happen not after an election but after a revolution, when the very premise of the ancien régime is treated as criminal. Furthermore, prosecution and punishment are not necessarily the best means to eradicate the rot from a political system, because in adjudicating systemic crimes political compromise is inevitable. It is practically impossible, and politically intolerable, to contemplate holding to account every corrupted officer in the chains of command that ran between the White House and the guardhouse at Abu Ghraib or at Bagram Airbase. A full and public reckoning of the historical record might be less cathartic but would ultimately be more valuable than a few sensational trials.

In any event, President Obama, who has taken a courageous lead in bringing the issue of torture to light, and in insisting on recriminalizing it, appears to have no interest in taking any of the policymakers to court—though he has not precluded doing so. Still, to date the only Americans who have been prosecuted and sentenced to imprisonment for the criminal policies that emanated from the highest levels are ten low-ranking servicemen and women—those who took and appeared in the Abu Ghraib photographs, and embarrassed the nation by showing us what we were doing there. Charles Graner is the only one remaining in prison, serving ten years. His superior officers enjoy their freedom, and C.I.A. interrogators, who spent years committing far worse acts against prisoners than Graner did even in the darkest days at Abu Ghraib, have been assured immunity.

But, if full justice remains impossible, surely some injustices can be corrected. Whenever crimes of state are adjudicated—at Nuremberg or The Hague, Phnom Penh or Kigali—the principle of command responsibility, whereby the leaders who give the orders are held to a higher standard of accountability than the foot soldiers who follow, pertains. There can be no restoration of the national honor if we continue to scapegoat those who took the fall for an Administration—and for us all. ♦
 
How Character Corrodes

By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: May 2, 2009

How quaint.

The Republicans are concerned about checks and balances.

The specter of Specter helping the president have his way with Congress has actually made conservatives remember why they respected the Constitution in the first place. Senator Mitch McConnell, the leader of the shrinking Republican minority, fretted that there was a “threat to the country” and wondered if people would want the majority to rule “without a check or a balance.”

Senator John Thune worried that Democrats would run “roughshod” and argued that Americans wanted checks and balances. Senator Judd Gregg mourned that “there’s no checks and balances on this massive expansion on the size of government.”

Bill Kristol, the editor of The Weekly Standard, tried to put the best face on it, noting, “This will make it easier for G.O.P. candidates in 2010 to ask to be elected to help restore some checks and balances in Washington.”

This is quite touching, given that the start of the 21st century will be remembered as the harrowing era when an arrogant Republican administration did its best to undermine checks and balances. (Maybe when your reign begins with Bush v. Gore, a Supreme heist that kissed off checks and balances, you feel no need to follow the founding fathers’ lead.)

After so many years of watching a White House upend laws, I now listen raptly when President Obama plays the constitutional law professor. He was asked at his news conference Wednesday night about the Republican fear that he will “ride roughshod over any opposition” and establish one-party rule.

“I’ve got Democrats who don’t agree with me on everything,” he said. “And that’s how it should be. Congress is a coequal branch of government.” You almost thought the professor in chief was going to ask the assembled students to please turn to page 317 in their Con Law book.

He went on to reassure Republicans that his vision of the presidency is very different from the imperial view held by the Boy Emperor and his regents.

“I do think that, to my Republican friends, I want them to realize that me reaching out to them has been genuine,” the president said, adding, “The majority will probably be determinative when it comes to resolving just hard-core differences that we can’t resolve, but there is a whole host of other areas where we can work together” and “make progress.”

The officials who actually represented a threat to the country while they were running the country are continuing to defend themselves. But they just end up further implicating themselves.

Condi Rice, who plans to go back to being a professor of political science at Stanford, got grilled by a student at a reception at a dorm there on Monday.

I’ve often wondered why students haven’t been more vocal in questioning the architects of the Iraq war and “legal” torture who landed plum spots at prestigious universities. Probably because it would have taken the draft, like the guillotine, to concentrate the mind. But finally, the young man at Stanford spoke up. Saying he had read that Ms. Rice authorized waterboarding, he asked her, “Is waterboarding torture?”

She replied: “The president instructed us that nothing we would do would be outside of our obligations, legal obligations, under the Convention Against Torture. So that’s — and by the way, I didn’t authorize anything. I conveyed the authorization of the administration to the agency.”

This was precisely Condi’s problem. She simply relayed. She never stood up against Cheney and Rummy for either what was morally right or what was smart in terms of our national security.

The student pressed again about whether waterboarding was torture.

“By definition, if it was authorized by the president, it did not violate our obligations under the Conventions Against Torture,” Ms. Rice said, almost quoting Nixon’s logic: “When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.”

She also stressed that, “Unless you were there in a position of responsibility after Sept. 11, you cannot possibly imagine the dilemmas that you faced in trying to protect Americans.”

Reyna Garcia, a Stanford sophomore who videotaped the exchange, said of Condi’s aria, “I wasn’t completely satisfied with her answers, to be honest,” adding that “President Obama went ahead and called it torture and she did everything she could not to do that.”

As Mr. Obama said in his news conference, it is in moments of crisis that a country must cleave to its principles. Asserting that “waterboarding violates our ideals,” he said he had been struck by an article describing how Churchill would not torture prisoners even when “London was being bombed to smithereens.”

“And the reason was that Churchill understood, you start taking shortcuts and over time, that corrodes what’s best in a people,” he said. “It corrodes the character of a country.”

Class dismissed.
 
On the other hand Churchill had a major, perhaps the major part in designing and implementing the Dresden firebombing, the direct, intentional targeting of a massive refugee staging area for no other reason than to create transport and logistical chaos at a major transportation hub.
 
So of course torture works, you'd have to be ridiculously naive (and a liberal) to think that it didn't.
Or a seasoned professional interrogator such as the ones quoted in this thread as being opposed to torture, on the grounds that it is an ineffective method of gathering good intelligence. Oddly enough, you can't believe everything you see on 24. But feel free to cite a single reliable source that torture is an effective means of gathering intelligence. I've yet to hear of one.

Just please don't say "It would be against national security interests to do so", because Dick Cheney is now eager to reveal such information, as was discussed earlier. As Delia Smith might say, let's be having it!
 
Lieut. Gen. Sanchez was on all the news programs shopping his new book:

PH2008050801972.jpg


The other day Sanchez did an online Q&A interview...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/05/08/DI2008050802020.html

Here are some clips from that event:

Seattle, WA: Why didn't you say anything when it might have made a difference? It seems to me that it is very easy to cast blame after the fact, but it requires a lot more guts to stand up and object at the time, especially if it means risking future advancement. Can you see why the American people might see books like yours as evidence of moral cowardice?

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez: You are absolutely correct about the perception that exists that the general officers did not say anything while in uniform. America must understand that under the concept of civilian control we are bound by our oath to obey the Pres and furthermore we are prohibited by the Uniform Code of Military Justice from speaking out against the civilian leadership -- that is exactly the way it ought to be! That is one of the foundations of our democracy! Every general officer provides his best judgments within the existing decision making process and everyone of us involved engaged actively in that process. Because the public does not hear the screams it doesn't mean we were not engaged.

_______________________


Atlanta, Ga.: It seems to me that in deciding to invade Iraq, Bush grossly underestimated the difficulties the military would encounter after toppling Saddam Hussein. Yet most of the pitfalls were not that surprising and could have been foreseen to a certain extent. Did he simply ignore the advice of military advisers, or were the military advisers just too intimidated to speak frankly, or what was the problem?

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez: We lost sight of history or just plain ignored the tremendously successful post major combat actions of WWII. We were victims of our success over the course of the last 15 years or so! We had launched contingency operations into Panama, Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti, Grenada, etc... and had been quite successful with minimal investment in time, lives and money. The key point is that America underestimated the commitment that would be required of our entire government not just the military -- in order to rebuild Iraq it required much more than military power. The entire capacity of our nation - economic, political and diplomatic had to be synchronized and applied in coordination with our military in order to achieve victory. We have failed over the last five years - we were not able to achieve unity of effort.

_______________________



Philadelphia, Pa.: What are your thoughts on the prison abuse scandal? How would you recommend that we can build the confidence of a large segment of the population throughout the Middle East that now views us negatively over how these prison photographs?

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez: The prison abuse scandal was a grotesque, shameful event that became a strategic defeat for America. There is no question in my mind that the root causes are the elimination of the Geneva Conventions and the subsequent lack of implementation instructions from the Service Headquarters that may have mitigated the loss of the foundation of our interrogation training, policies and procedures. We leave the soldiers and commanders in the field to fend for themselves with a totally unconstrained interrogation approach environment that has no safeguards and oversight mechanisms. Rebuilding Americas image will have to begin with an acceptance that we unleashed abuse and torture with the publication of those policies. It will be very difficult to communicate the realities of what happens to us in Bagram and Abu Ghraib - the combination of MPs punishing detainees who were never interrogated and the abuse of detainees that occur in those pictures will forever hound us as a country.


_______________________

Basking Ridge, N.J.: Re Abu Ghraib, an honorable general officer might have resigned at the time of public release so as to avoid the embarrassment rising to the President and the nation. Why didn't you? Why didn't others in the chain of command up to the President do so?

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez: The resignation of a general officer or anyone in the civilian or military chain of command for the purpose of avoiding embarrassment to the Pres or the nation might have served to HIDE the fact that America was on the wrong path with our interrogation techniques! We will never know the full extent of accountability until the Nation is willing to have an Independent Commission look at this problem.


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In addition: NPR Fresh Air interview (audio and article)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229404

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The bottom line: Lieut. Gen. Sanchez calls for an independent investigation. It is rediculous for the world to assume that the United States of America is going to handle any sort of investigation with any measure of levity.


It is the responsibility of the world courts to assume responsibilty of some of the most serious policy war crimes committed of this generation.


I've been saying it for many years, it's nice to finally see that a high ranking officer agrees with me.
 
Breaking News:

Although, this may not come as a suprise to most people, President Barack Obama has reversed his decission to release the thousands of photos that reflect war crimes of torture.

Says, 'It would only serve to harm the troops...'


:boring:


As if we didn't expect this to happen. As predicted, the USA is going to do nothing about this problem.



HELLO ICJ... Time to do you job!!!
 
What did you expect? Obama is rightfully prioritizing his ability to enact future legislation re:health care and the economy over digging back into the past to settle an old argument. He could prove his side right, but only at the risk of alienating so many Americans that he would endanger the growing support for needed reform.

I regret that Abu Zubaydeh and Khalid Sheikh Muhammad were tortured, and that the rest of the world is rightfully disappointed with us over it. But I'm not willing to right those two wrongs if the potential cost is losing such a promising opportunity to bring medical care to 50 million people, and prevent insurance companies from screwing millions more. That would be suicidal.
 
Barack is slowly seeing the light of day with respect to all of this. He's going to be a very good President.
 
Barack is slowly seeing the light of day with respect to all of this. He's going to be a very good President.

Woah steady on there Raoul.

I like the way he's handled this issue, it's greatly annoyed Bob and his moveon.org mates for a start, but there is a long way to go before I'll be even remotely satisfied with him and his future prospects.

If he's going to push through his hugely expensive health care reforms for example when we need to be cutting spending dramatically then he'll lose the tiny amount of respect I have for him at the moment.
 
Woah steady on there Raoul.

I like the way he's handled this issue, it's greatly annoyed Bob and his moveon.org mates for a start, but there is a long way to go before I'll be even remotely satisfied with him and his future prospects.

If he's going to push through his hugely expensive health care reforms for example when we need to be cutting spending dramatically then he'll lose the tiny amount of respect I have for him at the moment.

Each issue has to be dealt with individually, and for the sake of this thread, he's shown a sign of growth and leadership by placing the national interest ahead of his civil libertarian legal instincts, which in the initial days after he took office seemed to be his only guiding light. He has since managed to listen to his defense and terrorism experts, who have obviously told him that releasing more pics would do nothing more than appease a sense of public voyeurism and ultimately serve as a convenient Al-Qaeda recruiting tool. Once again, great job by the President.
 
Or a seasoned professional interrogator such as the ones quoted in this thread as being opposed to torture, on the grounds that it is an ineffective method of gathering good intelligence. Oddly enough, you can't believe everything you see on 24. But feel free to cite a single reliable source that torture is an effective means of gathering intelligence. I've yet to hear of one.

Just please don't say "It would be against national security interests to do so", because Dick Cheney is now eager to reveal such information, as was discussed earlier. As Delia Smith might say, let's be having it!


Washington - Waterboarding saved lives in the war against al Qaeda but is torture and should not be used, an ex-CIA interrogator said on Tuesday as lawmakers demanded answers about the agency's destruction of videotapes showing the interrogation technique.

A demonstrator is held down during a simulation of waterboarding outside the Justice Department in Washington November 5, 2007.

Former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou told U.S. news media that suspected al Qaeda lieutenant Abu Zubaida agreed to cooperate after being subjected to the simulated drowning technique for less than a minute by CIA officials in 2002.

"It was like flipping a switch," he told the Washington Post.

He said the session yielded valuable information and helped prevent attacks, but he now believes waterboarding is torture and "Americans are better than that."

Many countries, U.S. lawmakers and human rights groups have denounced waterboarding as torture. Reports of its use, as well as harsh treatment of captives in Iraq and Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay, have damaged the U.S. image around the world.

Kiriakou, who now works in the private sector, told his story to several media outlets as the CIA faced criticism for destroying a videotape of the interrogation, along with another showing the questioning of a second suspected al Qaeda member.

A judge had ordered the tapes to be preserved as possible evidence in a lawsuit filed by prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay naval base on Cuba, where the United States holds captured terrorism suspects.

A legal adviser at Guantanamo prison did not rule out using evidence collected from waterboarding suspects at military trials of detainees there.

"Torture is prohibited under U.S. law," Air Force Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee on Tuesday. But when California Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein asked him whether that meant that evidence from waterboarding was not used, he replied: "No ma'am, I didn't say that."

There's one example and you'll find plenty of others from a quick google search.

You must have been living under a rock your entire life not to have come across such examples. Very strange.

And no, I don't watch 24.
 
Each issue has to be dealt with individually, and for the sake of this thread, he's shown a sign of growth and leadership by placing the national interest ahead of his civil libertarian legal instincts, which in the initial days after he took office seemed to be his only guiding light. He has since managed to listen to his defense and terrorism experts, who have obviously told him that releasing more pics would do nothing more than appease a sense of public voyeurism and ultimately serve as a convenient Al-Qaeda recruiting tool. Once again, great job by the President.

Yup.

I quite like his Afpak strategy too so far, although he's going to have to really stick to his guns (pardon the pun) in order to make a success of it. A long and tough road ahead, is that one.
 
Story quoted by WeWonItTwoTimes

Former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou told U.S. news media that suspected al Qaeda lieutenant Abu Zubaida agreed to cooperate after being subjected to the simulated drowning technique for less than a minute by CIA officials in 2002. "It was like flipping a switch," he told the Washington Post.

He said the session yielded valuable information and helped prevent attacks, but he now believes waterboarding is torture and "Americans are better than that."
You must have been living under a rock your entire life not to have come across such examples. Very strange.
Why the need for a personal attack on my lifestyle choice? It is cool and damp here, just the way I like it.

Mr. Kiriakou, by the way, is not a reliable witness. He admits that he did not participate in any way in Zubaydah's interrogation, and was actually at CIA headquarters in Langley while Zubaydah was being tortured in a secret Thai prison. His account of the effectiveness of waterboarding came from "reading field reports". Also, his story makes no sense. He claims that Zubaydah broke within 35 seconds of his first waterboarding, and that "from that day on, he answered every question". If that were true...why did we waterboard Zubaydah 82 more times?
 
Especially considering she has no idea what version of the truth she'd give. A truth commision would bring her down along with others. So, I have no doubt we'll NOT see one. If we weren't still involved in Iraq and Afghanistan I'd be all for it. Right now isn't the time. There are bigger issues that need attending in the country. That said I'm all for it when the time is right.
 
Especially considering she has no idea what version of the truth she'd give. A truth commision would bring her down along with others. So, I have no doubt we'll NOT see one. If we weren't still involved in Iraq and Afghanistan I'd be all for it. Right now isn't the time. There are bigger issues that need attending in the country. That said I'm all for it when the time is right.


It's pathetic... as if she didn't hear about the hearing that almost was in Congress, pertaining to Abu Ghraib.
 
These daily briefings are great. Between hers and Gibbs I don't stop chuckling until well after lunch. Then Cheney on the attack too. :lol: He'd better be careful what he wishes for with respect to release of documents. I'm sure he knows nothing will be released. Pelosi doesn't know who she's messing with in this CIA deal. This is a organization that knows how to get information in the open without being attached to it. She needs to shut up.
 
These daily briefings are great. Between hers and Gibbs I don't stop chuckling until well after lunch. Then Cheney on the attack too. :lol: He'd better be careful what he wishes for with respect to release of documents. I'm sure he knows nothing will be released. Pelosi doesn't know who she's messing with in this CIA deal. This is a organization that knows how to get information in the open without being attached to it. She needs to shut up.

God, I can't stand Pelosi... would be the best thing for the Democrat party. She's the Dick Cheney of the Dems. - always does politically dumb shit, then speaks about it, whilst digging herself deeper and deeper.


The only thing that concerns me, if she somehow loses her position, a bigger asshole - Congressman Hoyer may take her place. Why is it that politics is like that... lose one and there's a good chance of a bigger feckhead waiting to screw things up even more than the last person.
 
God, I can't stand Pelosi... would be the best thing for the Democrat party. She's the Dick Cheney of the Dems. - always does politically dumb shit, then speaks about it, whilst digging herself deeper and deeper.


The only thing that concerns me, if she somehow loses her position, a bigger asshole - Congressman Hoyer may take her place. Why is it that politics is like that... lose one and there's a good chance of a bigger feckhead waiting to screw things up even more than the last person.

Careful now, you're starting to sound like me. :eek: There's always room in the Libertarian tent. If the country could get away from the 2 party and 2 party only system we'd all be the better for it.

You're a California boy like me. You ready for a financial bomb to go off? I'm filling out my absentee ballot right now. If I had any money some of that land San Quinten sits on would be a beautiful view. A bit out if my price range......