‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

SadlerMUFC said:
You "don't care about stats"? Or you "don't care about stats when it doesn't fit your agenda?"

These stats aren't comparing Maguire to VVD from 2018/19 when he earned his way to the award ceremony. It was comparing them this year. This year where many have liked to scapegoat Maguire despite him being our best defender (by far). Has he made mistakes? Yes he has. Has he been one of the best defenders in England and helped to lower our goals against by 20 goals? Also a yes...
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I feel that stats can be used to argue any number of points, because they are so easy to take out of context. I haven't tried to use stats to prove my point or fit my agenda. I don't really think it's necessary to prove VVD is better than Harry Maguire. It's pretty much a given. You won't find many people taking a different view. If Liverpool went mad and offered a straight swap, I promise you no-one in Manchester would say no.

Don't get me wrong, I think Maguire is good. I just do not think he is world class.
 
glazed said:
I feel that stats can be used to argue any number of points, because they are so easy to take out of context. I haven't tried to use stats to prove my point or fit my agenda. I don't really think it's necessary to prove VVD is better than Harry Maguire. It's pretty much a given. You won't find many people taking a different view. If Liverpool went mad and offered a straight swap, I promise you no-one in Manchester would say no.

Don't get me wrong, I think Maguire is good. I just do not think he is world class.
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If we paid 25m for a player and our goals against dropped by 20 I bet you would feel differently about whether or not he was world class
 
SadlerMUFC said:
If we paid 25m for a player and our goals against dropped by 20 I bet you would feel differently about whether or not he was world class
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I don't quite follow your point.
 
glazed said:
I don't quite follow your point.
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You are putting too much on his price tag. You don't judge whether or not a player is world class based on their price tag. You base it on the performance on the pitch. Bottom line is with Maguire in our central defense our goals against dropped by 20 goals despite having a keeper who made more mistakes that lead to goals than any other keeper in the league. If Maguire had only cost 25m with these stats, everyone would be talking about how great he is. But because he cost 80m people act as if we should have a clean sheet every game...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274

The only stat where VVD is ahead of Maguire is clearances and arial battles won. And for those who say there isn't much between Maguire and Lindeloff, this tells an entirely different picture...
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Yes and hes ahead of him enough that overall he's ahead. Also a lot less "duels lost" while around the same duels won. So even by your own stats VVD comes out far ahead.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274

The only stat where VVD is ahead of Maguire is clearances and arial battles won. And for those who say there isn't much between Maguire and Lindeloff, this tells an entirely different picture...
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There's no question that Maguire is a level above Lindelof, not a 80M defender so far but definitely the better player of the two.
 
Ekeke said:
Yes and hes ahead of him enough that overall he's ahead. Also a lot less "duels lost" while around the same duels won. So even by your own stats VVD comes out far ahead.
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"My stats have VVD ahead?" In what world are you living in? VVD was better in a few areas, but Maguire was better in many more. Only a fool would deny that. But I get it...you have an agenda against Maguire and silly things like facts don't fit in...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
"My stats have VVD ahead?" In what world are you living in? VVD was better in a few areas, but Maguire was better in many more. Only a fool would deny that. But I get it...you have an agenda against Maguire and silly things like facts don't fit in...
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I dont think you know how to read your own stats. Maguire lost almost twice as many duels as VVD and the difference in those won was 1. I get it, you're not worth responding to.
 
Ekeke said:
I dont think you know how to read your own stats. Maguire lost almost twice as many duels as VVD and the difference in those won was 1. I get it, you're not worth responding to.
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I know how to read them. You just seem to be picking out the one stat that suits your agenda while ignoring all the others. Unlike you, I look at all the data that was provided...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I know how to read them. You just seem to be picking out the one stat that suits your agenda while ignoring all the others. Unlike you, I look at all the data that was provided...
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No you dont, you have selectively pulled your own data ignoring the stats that were previously posted. And you're ignoring the fact that Maguire loses almost twice as many duels as VVD
 
The point of the thread is not about who’s better or worse but to tell people that apart from Van Dijk, there are no available centre backs who are worth those ridiculous values that the top club can sign if they are looking for improvement. Koulibaly is a good example that he’s also being overpriced not just Maguire. Maguire makes some crucial mistakes and so does Koulibaly but the one who got criticised in media is the English man. Koulibaly is nowhere near Van Dijk and lot of people think he is Van Dijk level. Currently there are no ‘’world class’’ centre back apart from Ramos & Van Dijk, the rest are already ageing or way below their level.
 
Replace lindelof and I think you will find that Maguire looks better - in fact I would go as far as saying his stats will improve. With a passive partner you will be exposed more and are more likely to lose duels as you will be in more dangerous open positions.

We talk about van dyke but look at the defenders he has next to him, not only that but Liverpool have a midfield that is v strong defensively - we don’t ...

anyway here’s what Scholes said in MEN - “I think they could do with a centre-half," he added. "I’ve said that all along. I’m not sure Lindelof is going to be good enough to partner Maguire.

"I think they need a more dominant defender next to him.
 
yan man utd said:
Replace lindelof and I think you will find that Maguire looks better - in fact I would go as far as saying his stats will improve. With a passive partner you will be exposed more and are more likely to lose duels as you will be in more dangerous open positions.

We talk about van dyke but look at the defenders he has next to him, not only that but Liverpool have a midfield that is v strong defensively - we don’t ...

anyway here’s what Scholes said in MEN - “I think they could do with a centre-half," he added. "I’ve said that all along. I’m not sure Lindelof is going to be good enough to partner Maguire.

"I think they need a more dominant defender next to him.
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I agree Maguire will do better with a better partner, as will everyone else. But I dont think he's going to be as good as VVD without VVD next to him
 
Ekeke said:
No you dont, you have selectively pulled your own data ignoring the stats that were previously posted. And you're ignoring the fact that Maguire loses almost twice as many duels as VVD
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If I was "selectively pulling my own data" don't you think I would only post stats that showed Maguire ahead? I posted all the defensive stats and supplied a source. Just because the data doesn't suit your agenda, it doesn't mean it's wrong. And I did not ignore that Maguire lost more duels. In fact, I posted it. If you want to talk about someone ignoring stats, look in the mirror. You are hanging your hat on that one stat while ignoring all the others that I posted. But go on....tell me how you don't have an agenda against Maguire...pfft
 
SadlerMUFC said:
If I was "selectively pulling my own data" don't you think I would only post stats that showed Maguire ahead? I posted all the defensive stats and supplied a source. Just because the data doesn't suit your agenda, it doesn't mean it's wrong. And I did not ignore that Maguire lost more duels. In fact, I posted it. If you want to talk about someone ignoring stats, look in the mirror. You are hanging your hat on that one stat while ignoring all the others that I posted. But go on....tell me how you don't have an agenda against Maguire...pfft
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You didnt put up any of the other stats that are relevant to a CB

https://i.gyazo.com/4e5e09016f94b01ef310fa20efcc530a.png

Also 5 goals for VVD and 1 from Maguire

Its not an "agenda" when someone suggests that VVD was better than Maguire last season. Its reality and 99.9% of people know it, you are the 0.1%
 
Ekeke said:
You didnt put up any of the other stats that are relevant to a CB

https://i.gyazo.com/4e5e09016f94b01ef310fa20efcc530a.png

Also 5 goals for VVD and 1 from Maguire

Its not an "agenda" when someone suggests that VVD was better than Maguire last season. Its reality and 99.9% of people know it, you are the 0.1%
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You're kidding right? I didn't put up other stats relevant to a CB? I put up every defensive stat that was available from that site. I don't care how many goals my central defender scores. His job is to defend. Goals are a bonus. I also never said that Maguire was better than VVD. I said that his defensive stats were. If that got you all butt hurt, then perhaps you need to question whether you support United or Liverpool
 
SadlerMUFC said:
You're kidding right? I didn't put up other stats relevant to a CB? I put up every defensive stat that was available from that site. I don't care how many goals my central defender scores. His job is to defend. Goals are a bonus. I also never said that Maguire was better than VVD. I said that his defensive stats were. If that got you all butt hurt, then perhaps you need to question whether you support United or Liverpool
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Of course it matters how many goals they score
 
Ekeke said:
Of course it matters how many goals they score
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No it doesn't :lol: :lol: :lol:

When it comes to "who the best defenders are" only an fool would say "well how many goals does he score?". Scoring is a bonus for a central defender. It's nice to have a guy who is a threat on set pieces, but it's not how you properly rate a defender. It's like saying "so and so is a great striker because he is good defensively". It's also a big part of why so many people are tricked into thinking Ramos is a good defender when he is quite possibly the most over rated defender to ever play the game...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
No it doesn't :lol: :lol: :lol:

When it comes to "who the best defenders are" only an fool would say "well how many goals does he score?". Scoring is a bonus for a central defender. It's nice to have a guy who is a threat on set pieces, but it's not how you properly rate a defender. It's like saying "so and so is a great striker because he is good defensively". It's also a big part of why so many people are tricked into thinking Ramos is a good defender when he is quite possibly the most over rated defender to ever play the game...
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Its absolutely one of the metrics that CBs are judged on. As is their on the ball play. Ramos is a fantastic long passer.
 
Quoting misleading and lacking statistics to judge a player is very 2020 and the way the world works now, it’s just sad. Did people stop using their eyes as the most important factor?

It’s all well and good that VVD leads the chart as he should, but when we see Mustafi slightly below we know there are few things to consider. A good central defender and a great one is separated first and foremost by anticipation. How do you measure it? How do you measure how a player reads the game and avoids danger? Think Rio Ferdinand. He would avoid making tackles because there wasn’t a tackle to be made, but that does not show up in a statistical tool. Likewise, a player with poor reading of the game could end up making tons of tackles, perhaps he is hugely successful and looks good in the stats... but what about the second balls after the 50/50-tackle is made? Moments later the ball could be in the back of the net after some fighting and further sequences, but the player with crap vision would end up with good tackling stats - and of course a minus for the goal conceeded, there’s no escape from that of course.

Emphasis is also put on so-called mistakes. What is a mistake? Slipping like Gerrard or putting the striker through on goal after a backpass (also like Gerrard) - sure - but positional lapses are just as bad if the striker slips in between two players to score a tap-in. That will not show as a mistake in the charts, a statistic cannot show less than optimal positioning...lack of anticiption. Winning tons of headers is very positive, not leading your defensive unit well enough to avoid all those crosses isn’t possible to measure as such.

For stoppers, I use my eyes to make conclusions - not statistics. Saying that, many of the best players are represented where they should be.
 
Ekeke said:
Its absolutely one of the metrics that CBs are judged on. As is their on the ball play. Ramos is a fantastic long passer.
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It's one that is way down the list. In the bonus column. Remember when Gooners thought Vermalen was great because he scored a bunch of goals? Goals make a defender look great in a fantasy team, but they are a bonus when judging how good of a defender that player really is...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
so many people are tricked into thinking Ramos is a good defender when he is quite possibly the most over rated defender to ever play the game...
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Ramos the most overrated defender... :lol:
Says the guy that thinks Maguire is a class CB
 
SadlerMUFC said:
It's one that is way down the list. In the bonus column. Remember when Gooners thought Vermalen was great because he scored a bunch of goals? Goals make a defender look great in a fantasy team, but they are a bonus when judging how good of a defender that player really is...
Click to expand...

I dunno, with how Maguire attacks a ball I often wish we had a CB who could be relied on to score a goal.
 
Karlos PFC said:
Ramos the most overrated defender... :lol:
Says the guy that thinks Maguire is a class CB
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Yes. Ramos is quite possibly the most over rated defender to ever play the game. Truly great defenders don't get caught out of position as often as he does or get red cards as much as he does. Some of his defensive blunders would have Phil Jones blushing...
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I dunno, with how Maguire attacks a ball I often wish we had a CB who could be relied on to score a goal.
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I wish he would score more goals too. And I think goals will come from him. But it's definitely not how I judge him as a defender. I judge defenders based on how well they do in the defensive half of the field, not the other end of the pitch...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
You're kidding right? I didn't put up other stats relevant to a CB? I put up every defensive stat that was available from that site. I don't care how many goals my central defender scores. His job is to defend. Goals are a bonus. I also never said that Maguire was better than VVD. I said that his defensive stats were. If that got you all butt hurt, then perhaps you need to question whether you support United or Liverpool
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I have had previous discussions with the poster and the goal posts keep changing. Maguire's stats are actually really good this season, comparable to VVD and beyond other CB's. That doesnt mean Maguire is better and you haven't said that either.

It just goes to show the agendas against our own players whilst showing great support for other team players.

We all know VVD is better at duels because of his pace, considering all the flaws that fans keep pointing out towards Maguire, hes had a very good season and is a big part of the reason why our defence looks better with him.
 
romufc said:
I have had previous discussions with the poster and the goal posts keep changing. Maguire's stats are actually really good this season, comparable to VVD and beyond other CB's. That doesnt mean Maguire is better and you haven't said that either.

It just goes to show the agendas against our own players whilst showing great support for other team players.

We all know VVD is better at duels because of his pace, considering all the flaws that fans keep pointing out towards Maguire, hes had a very good season and is a big part of the reason why our defence looks better with him.
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I really don't understand the agenda against Maguire. Mark Goldbridge being the worst of the bunch as others just seem to repeat what he says like the muppets they are. They need to quit with the agendas. Has he made mistakes? Yeah, and a couple were actually quite embarrassing. But for the most part, he's been fantastic. Our goals against is down by 20 goals from the previous season. If that isn't enough evidence, then I don't know what is...
 
Hawks2008 said:
Maguire is too poor in 50/50s to be considered anything resembling a great CB.
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Based on???

------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I really don't understand the agenda against Maguire. Mark Goldbridge being the worst of the bunch as others just seem to repeat what he says like the muppets they are. They need to quit with the agendas. Has he made mistakes? Yeah, and a couple were actually quite embarrassing. But for the most part, he's been fantastic. Our goals against is down by 20 goals from the previous season. If that isn't enough evidence, then I don't know what is...
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Goldbridge has a go at the defence everytime we score a goal, it is football, we will concede goals. If we are using the same metric to disect goals conceded, none of our strikers would be good enough, no striker in the world has a conversion rate higher than 30%.

Everyone makes mistakes. Maguire is not quick, we know this that doesnt mean he cannot defend. I can guarantee you, without Maguire, this defence will be completely ruined.

It is annoying when they use stats to help their agendas, but when Maguire's stats are shown, they will say "stats don't show the true picture".

They will gif a video of him giving the ball away and say.. "he can pass, they said". Well then why is his passing accuracy not 50%? why is it 80%+?

If you watch his positioning, his in game intelligence, its there, there is a reason why he starts every game.

The problem is that alot of fans think Ole is a crap manager, I dont want to get into that but he is not stupid, the coaches are not stupid, they can tell a player if he's good. Gareth Southgate starts him, Pep wanted him.

I have read that Goldbridge wanted both CB's sold and replaced... just an over reaction to a loss.
 
My biggest issue with Maguire is his pace and taking forever to play the ball from defense.

The former reason though is the big issue as it limits the team tactically. We are forced to play a deeper line most often than not.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I really don't understand the agenda against Maguire. Mark Goldbridge being the worst of the bunch as others just seem to repeat what he says like the muppets they are. They need to quit with the agendas. Has he made mistakes? Yeah, and a couple were actually quite embarrassing. But for the most part, he's been fantastic. Our goals against is down by 20 goals from the previous season. If that isn't enough evidence, then I don't know what is...
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If we get Maguire a decent partner he's going to grow as a player even more. Considering he often has to assist Shaw on the right side he's been fantastic, not saying that because Shaw is a bad player but Rashford isn't as helpful in defence on his side like James or Greenwood.
 
Denis79 said:
If we get Maguire a decent partner he's going to grow as a player even more. Considering he often has to assist Shaw on the right side he's been fantastic, not saying that because Shaw is a bad player but Rashford isn't as helpful in defence on his side like James or Greenwood.
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Shaw is actually quite good. Williams on the other hand? Not so much...
 
Ekeke said:
I agree Maguire will do better with a better partner, as will everyone else. But I dont think he's going to be as good as VVD without VVD next to him
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Well said...Ironic, unfortunately amusing and true. In fact they would make a great partnership- shame we missed the boat with him. - critical and while mourinho was buying lindelof and Bailly and dissing Smalling - klopp went and bought the obvious.....
 
James Peril said:
Quoting misleading and lacking statistics to judge a player is very 2020 and the way the world works now, it’s just sad. Did people stop using their eyes as the most important factor?

It’s all well and good that VVD leads the chart as he should, but when we see Mustafi slightly below we know there are few things to consider. A good central defender and a great one is separated first and foremost by anticipation. How do you measure it? How do you measure how a player reads the game and avoids danger? Think Rio Ferdinand. He would avoid making tackles because there wasn’t a tackle to be made, but that does not show up in a statistical tool. Likewise, a player with poor reading of the game could end up making tons of tackles, perhaps he is hugely successful and looks good in the stats... but what about the second balls after the 50/50-tackle is made? Moments later the ball could be in the back of the net after some fighting and further sequences, but the player with crap vision would end up with good tackling stats - and of course a minus for the goal conceeded, there’s no escape from that of course.

Emphasis is also put on so-called mistakes. What is a mistake? Slipping like Gerrard or putting the striker through on goal after a backpass (also like Gerrard) - sure - but positional lapses are just as bad if the striker slips in between two players to score a tap-in. That will not show as a mistake in the charts, a statistic cannot show less than optimal positioning...lack of anticiption. Winning tons of headers is very positive, not leading your defensive unit well enough to avoid all those crosses isn’t possible to measure as such.

For stoppers, I use my eyes to make conclusions - not statistics. Saying that, many of the best players are represented where they should be.
Click to expand...

Good one, mate.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I really don't understand the agenda against Maguire. Mark Goldbridge being the worst of the bunch as others just seem to repeat what he says like the muppets they are. They need to quit with the agendas. Has he made mistakes? Yeah, and a couple were actually quite embarrassing. But for the most part, he's been fantastic. Our goals against is down by 20 goals from the previous season. If that isn't enough evidence, then I don't know what is...
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Not quite that simple though. For the first half of the season, Mourinho was pretty much actively sabotaging the team with ludicrous choices like playing Herrera at CB.

With Solskjaer, we were conceding 1.19 goals per game last season so over a full season we would have been expected to end up with 45 goals conceded. That's only 9 more than what we actually conceded this season. Still a decent improvement but not nearly as dramatic as you try to paint it. The previous two seasons (17/18 and 16/17) we conceded 28 and 29 goals, respectively.

Maguire's a decent player but that's about it. Leicester's defending actually improved without him this season. His price tag means we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future which means that eventually we'll have to sign yet another CB to compensate for his lack of pace if we have serious ambitions. Though I'd prefer to first sign a top class player to replace Matic - that would improve us quite a bit.
 
But we need ball playing CBS to break crystal palace :eek:
 
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