25 Players Out

Ted Lasso

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How Ruben Amorim was able to fix Sporting in only one summer

I know a few posters, especially the one Sporting fan on here summarized this back when we first hired Amorim. This is a pretty good recent video refresher and even more important for anyone that wasn't aware of the club turnover at Sporting.

There's a table at the end highlighting players that United should move on from without any sentimentality and honestly, it does feel like another 25 out would not be the worst decision for Amorim.

I've got no sentimentality left. I wish we could see the tear down start at the top with the Glazers and INEOS. But if it's at least the squad then that's better than continuing the same old boom bust cycle of incremental changes and knee jerk bandages.
 
I'm grateful that we've seen so many players shown the door already. The big clear out we've already had has been great - long may it continue. Rashford, Sancho, Antony - I thought we'd be stuck with them for years to come.

I know that if Woodward and co were still in charge of football operations (cringe) we wouldn't be seeing anywhere near the player turnover that we have.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
I'm grateful that we've seen so many players shown the door already. The big clear out we've already had has been great - long may it continue. Rashford, Sancho, Antony - I thought we'd be stuck with them for years to come.

I know that if Woodward and co were still in charge of football operations (cringe) we wouldn't be seeing anywhere near the player turnover that we have.
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Woodward really did cause a lot of harm singlehandedly, didn't he?

I'm hoping we see a strong pivot away from marquee signings. We've replied so much...papered over so much with flashes of individual brilliance
 
I believe we have become better at getting rid of players and in fact have been getting rid of players at an accelerated pace. I also think that this has cost us and the league table position over the last 2 seasons has been worse off because some of those players could have been useful - McT, Rashford (this season), Fred, Elanga . This is not to say that we should not get rid of players but we need to understand that getting rid of players causes short term pain, and if the incoming is bad, then even long term pain.

I think the big challenge or what we have messed up consistently is our incoming business. We have bought players (for inflated prices) that were not suited for the premier league or to play for a big club and all this has been compounded with manager appointments where there has been no consistency in philosophy. Even ETH and Amorim have almost opposite styles of play so those players that were showing potential with ETH look useless with Amorim.

In summary, open to get rid of players on case by case basis. This would mean around 10 players leaving, a mix of older players, those on loan and a couple of strategic exits to fund transfer business. But we should not indulge in selling players for the sake of it. For instance, I hear a lot of noises about selling Dalot or De Ligt. Both those should be avoided as those are players playing every week and putting in an acceptable if not great shifts. I recognise that Dalot has had many poor games this season but there are some systemic issues that have caused that.
 
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Ted Lasso said:
Woodward really did cause a lot of harm singlehandedly, didn't he?

I'm hoping we see a strong pivot away from marquee signings. We've replied so much...papered over so much with flashes of individual brilliance
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Next to the Glazers, he is the single greatest cause of our demise.

And yes I agree. I remember when LvG started and we were signing all of these marquee players - people started calling them the 'VanGaalacticoes'. We all know how that turned out.
 
I genuinely believe we need two summers of enormous player turnover just to give us the club the jolt and complete reset needed. These 3 or 4 signings per summer ensure the malaise and rot spreads to new additions rather than be truly eradicated.

Goes without saying that the signings need to be very good players.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
Next to the Glazers, he is the single greatest cause of our demise.

And yes I agree. I remember when LvG started and we were signing all of these marquee players - people started calling them the 'VanGaalacticoes'. We all know how that turned out.
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Spot on re Woodward. Guy was completely clueless, inept and incompetent in his role. But he could sign the hell the out of a noodle partner though!

Honestly can’t believe how someone so shit at their job like Woodward, still became wealthy and got paid handsomely for it. Shows you what the hell is wrong with this world.
 
Give Casemiro a free transfer, so he can go to SA and get him off the books. Thats the only way he will go as noone will pay a transfer fee and his high wages. Bruno will be the only 300k a week player then, providing Rashford has gone. Sancho will be gone as well.
 
It's not so easy to get rid of our players. You might think "oh lets get rid of Hojlund", but we spent 70m on him and what would we need to sell him for to not take a loss on PSR so it's actually not negatively affecting our situation? Saw recently something saying we need to get something like 35 or 40m for Antony to not get a loss for example, and that's obviously not happening. It's also much harder to sign enough players who are premier league level because it's obviously a much more difficult league than the Portuguese league. You can't really find bargains to fill your whole squad. Dorgu is the equivalent of a young, unproven and relatively unknown punt... and he was 35m. We also don't have youth players who are on the fringe of being PL level, so if you fill the squad with them, then you really start risking the unthinkable (relegation).

Basically, that's unrealistic. We are stick with guys like Casemiro in the squad unless someone gives us money for him and takes his wages. With some luck we'll get money for Rashford and Antony to add to Sancho, while Lindelof and Eriksen will have their contracts expire. After that, we are in the territory of selling the players who have long term value, the exact type high potential of players you'd want to have to give you long term improvement hopes like Mainoo or Garnacho.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's not so easy to get rid of our players. You might think "oh lets get rid of Hojlund", but we spent 70m on him and what would we need to sell him for to not take a loss on PSR so it's actually not negatively affecting our situation? Saw recently something saying we need to get something like 35 or 40m for Antony to not get a loss for example, and that's obviously not happening. It's also much harder to sign enough players who are premier league level because it's obviously a much more difficult league than the Portuguese league. You can't really find bargains to fill your whole squad. Dorgu is the equivalent of a young, unproven and relatively unknown punt... and he was 35m. We also don't have youth players who are on the fringe of being PL level, so if you fill the squad with them, then you really start risking the unthinkable (relegation).

Basically, that's unrealistic. We are stick with guys like Casemiro in the squad unless someone gives us money for him and takes his wages. With some luck we'll get money for Rashford and Antony to add to Sancho, while Lindelof and Eriksen will have their contracts expire. After that, we are in the territory of selling the players who have long term value, the exact type high potential of players you'd want to have to give you long term improvement hopes like Mainoo or Garnacho.
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I agree with you up until Mainoo and Garnacho, who have been given this label of high potential without really much to back it up.

I think more youth players will get a chance, but I wouldn't be surprised if we try to sell either or both of those 2.

On the other side of things we bought Heaven for 1.5m apparently. Dorgu was pretty well known, same for yoro that's why they were more expensive. Dorgu was 30m euros according to transfers market.

Savinho cost 25m euros and would improve us dramatically. So I think we will buy cheap players and try to pick out gems.
 
hobbers said:
He wont accept a free transfer because no one is going to pay him more than he'll earn in his last season
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A Mutually terminated contract would enable him to pick up a huge signing on fee, though.
I guess it's up to him if he wants to sit on the bench and pick up his salary or go play football and get a big lump sum. He could do both, but will his stock still be high after another season of mostly garbage cameos?
 
Hammondo said:
I agree with you up until Mainoo and Garnacho, who have been given this label of high potential without really much to back it up.

I think more youth players will get a chance, but I wouldn't be surprised if we try to sell either or both of those 2.

On the other side of things we bought Heaven for 1.5m apparently. Dorgu was pretty well known, same for yoro that's why they were more expensive. Dorgu was 30m euros according to transfers market.

Savinho cost 25m euros and would improve us dramatically. So I think we will buy cheap players and try to pick out gems.
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They have absolutely deserved their high potential/top talents reputation, let's not be ridiculous because the club is a disaster and let's not blame our 2 top young talents for this situation.
 
Top_Bins said:
A Mutually terminated contract would enable him to pick up a huge signing on fee, though.
I guess it's up to him if he wants to sit on the bench and pick up his salary or go play football and get a big lump sum. He could do both, but will his stock still be high after another season of mostly garbage cameos?
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If someone wanted to sign him, he would already be gone. His agent spent most of Jan in Saudi trying to market him to clubs there but no one was interested.

The best case scenario we have is that we loan him to someone in this coming summer and pay half his wages.
 
It is a lot easier to ship out players in a squad that are on less annually combined than Casemiro and Fernandes are together.
 
bosnian_red said:
They have absolutely deserved their high potential/top talents reputation, let's not be ridiculous because the club is a disaster and let's not blame our 2 top young talents for this situation.
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I can see a small argument that Mainoo last season did for a short period of Ty, but Garnacho at no point has. I really don't see where your argument comes from.
 
Hammondo said:
I can see a small argument that Mainoo last season did for a short period of Ty, but Garnacho at no point has. I really don't see where your argument comes from.
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Garnacho has been one of the most productive players in his age group, ranks really high in lots of important metrics for young wingers, has had loads of big moments already in his young career.

Hes having a tough season because the club is a mess. He was excellent the 2 seasons prior. He was absolutely key for us to winning the FA Cup, as was Mainoo. That's not something to ignore.

People writing these 2 u20 players off because the club is a disaster is fecking wild to me, honestly some of the worst takes I see on here when people don't realize that it's quite hard for a young player to do well when everything around him is self imploding.
 
bosnian_red said:
Garnacho has been one of the most productive players in his age group, ranks really high in lots of important metrics for young wingers, has had loads of big moments already in his young career.

Hes having a tough season because the club is a mess. He was excellent the 2 seasons prior. He was absolutely key for us to winning the FA Cup, as was Mainoo. That's not something to ignore.

People writing these 2 u20 players off because the club is a disaster is fecking wild to me, honestly some of the worst takes I see on here when people don't realize that it's quite hard for a young player to do well when everything around him is self imploding.
Click to expand...
Where are you getting that from, that he's one of the most productive?
 
bosnian_red said:
It's not so easy to get rid of our players. You might think "oh lets get rid of Hojlund", but we spent 70m on him and what would we need to sell him for to not take a loss on PSR so it's actually not negatively affecting our situation? Saw recently something saying we need to get something like 35 or 40m for Antony to not get a loss for example, and that's obviously not happening. It's also much harder to sign enough players who are premier league level because it's obviously a much more difficult league than the Portuguese league. You can't really find bargains to fill your whole squad. Dorgu is the equivalent of a young, unproven and relatively unknown punt... and he was 35m. We also don't have youth players who are on the fringe of being PL level, so if you fill the squad with them, then you really start risking the unthinkable (relegation).

Basically, that's unrealistic. We are stick with guys like Casemiro in the squad unless someone gives us money for him and takes his wages. With some luck we'll get money for Rashford and Antony to add to Sancho, while Lindelof and Eriksen will have their contracts expire. After that, we are in the territory of selling the players who have long term value, the exact type high potential of players you'd want to have to give you long term improvement hopes like Mainoo or Garnacho.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. The longer we hold onto these failed players the more money we are . We can get a fee for Hojlund even if it's a big loss. Bringing Jonathan David in on a free is unlikely to be worse. Also the fact that Antony and Rashford are having a good season on loan will probably influence someone to take a punt on Hojlund on the off chance the same thing happens.

With Casemiro, I'm sure we can get another player in. His wages are so high that you could Amortise a transfer fee and a players wages for a similar outlay to just his wages alone.

We need to forget about the PSR losses to some extent. We will not get back anything like we paid for Sancho, Antony, Casemiro and Hojlund. We have to accept the money has been wasted and try and be as smart as we can in our future dealers to offset this and if we do have to sell a youth player or two to improve our position then we should do so.
 
wolvored said:
Give Casemiro a free transfer, so he can go to SA and get him off the books. Thats the only way he will go as noone will pay a transfer fee and his high wages. Bruno will be the only 300k a week player then, providing Rashford has gone. Sancho will be gone as well.
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It never happens and won’t with Casemiro either
 
Hammondo said:
I agree with you up until Mainoo and Garnacho, who have been given this label of high potential without really much to back it up.

I think more youth players will get a chance, but I wouldn't be surprised if we try to sell either or both of those 2.

On the other side of things we bought Heaven for 1.5m apparently. Dorgu was pretty well known, same for yoro that's why they were more expensive. Dorgu was 30m euros according to transfers market.

Savinho cost 25m euros and would improve us dramatically. So I think we will buy cheap players and try to pick out gems.
Click to expand...
To be fair, City signed Savinho from City didn't they?

I suppose we could try Guessand in a similar deal, if Uefa allow it.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I genuinely believe we need two summers of enormous player turnover just to give us the club the jolt and complete reset needed. These 3 or 4 signings per summer ensure the malaise and rot spreads to new additions rather than be truly eradicated.

Goes without saying that the signings need to be very good players.
Click to expand...
Agreed. The 3/4 signings has worked for well functioning teams. Really feels like we're so far beyond that.

Sassy Colin said:
Fascinating, I wonder whether United would have the bottle to do such a clear out.
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Before this Sporting history I couldn't name an instance of such a dramatic overhaul in one side. If we get close that would be a surprise
 
I definitely struggle to see how events at Sporting can be translated across to Utd. Just looking at the departures in his first couple of summers, the vast majority seem to be loans, free transfers, and some retirements. Of the sales for cash, the majority are for under £5m.

I think it is a good sign in terms of his willingness to make judgements on players, and act on them - that’s something Utd have missed, probably since Ferguson. The transferability of that is what seems doubtful. I’d be surprised if he came up against the issues he’ll face at Utd; particularly player wages, and the complexity of replacement.
I’d be interested to know what the absolute maximum incoming and outgoing players has happened at Utd. I may be wrong, and it may have been that senior management was holding other managers back from being able to quickly change teams, but I suspect it is a structural problem due to the money in the Premier League, and the far smaller pool of players available as replacements, along with the smaller pool of potential clubs who could receive the sold players.
 
Tallis said:
I believe we have become better at getting rid of players and in fact have been getting rid of players at an accelerated pace. I also think that this has cost us and the league table position over the last 2 seasons has been worse off because some of those players could have been useful - McT, Rashford (this season), Fred, Elanga . This is not to say that we should not get rid of players but we need to understand that getting rid of players causes short term pain, and if the incoming is bad, then even long term pain.

I think the big challenge or what we have messed up consistently is our incoming business. We have bought players (for inflated prices) that were not suited for the premier league or to play for a big club and all this has been compounded with manager appointments where there has been no consistency in philosophy. Even ETH and Amorim have almost opposite styles of play so those players that were showing potential with ETH look useless with Amorim.

In summary, open to get rid of players on case by case basis. This would mean around 10 players leaving, a mix of older players, those on loan and a couple of strategic exits to fund transfer business. But we should not indulge in selling players for the sake of it. For instance, I hear a lot of noises about selling Dalot or De Ligt. Both those should be avoided as those are players playing every week and putting in an acceptable if not great shifts. I recognise that Dalot has had many poor games this season but there are some systemic issues that have caused that.
Click to expand...
No. He’s had plenty of poor games every season. He basically only had 1.5 seasons worth of performance where’s he’s above average. Under Sir Alex he would have been shipped off instead of being given a contract renewal.

People don’t want to accept it because he looks like he has a great attitude on the pitch and gives a great hi-five when celebrating a defensive play.

He’s one of the dumbest player to have played for us and consistently makes the wrong play.
 
elmo said:
No. He’s had plenty of poor games every season. He basically only had 1.5 seasons worth of performance where’s he’s above average. Under Sir Alex he would have been shipped off instead of being given a contract renewal.

People don’t want to accept it because he looks like he has a great attitude on the pitch and gives a great hi-five when celebrating a defensive play.

He’s one of the dumbest player to have played for us and consistently makes the wrong play.
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Spot on, some cnut actually tagged me at the end of last season as a "gotcha" after I called him out for being shit, hope that poster feels like a right thicko now.
 
Ted Lasso said:
How Ruben Amorim was able to fix Sporting in only one summer

I know a few posters, especially the one Sporting fan on here summarized this back when we first hired Amorim. This is a pretty good recent video refresher and even more important for anyone that wasn't aware of the club turnover at Sporting.

There's a table at the end highlighting players that United should move on from without any sentimentality and honestly, it does feel like another 25 out would not be the worst decision for Amorim.

I've got no sentimentality left. I wish we could see the tear down start at the top with the Glazers and INEOS. But if it's at least the squad then that's better than continuing the same old boom bust cycle of incremental changes and knee jerk bandages.
Click to expand...

Interesting video, although I suspect the situation at United is going to be quite different and he would be lucky to get rid of ~5 players given their respective contract situations and lingering injuries which have suppressed their sell on values.
 
bosnian_red said:
Garnacho has been one of the most productive players in his age group, ranks really high in lots of important metrics for young wingers, has had loads of big moments already in his young career.

Hes having a tough season because the club is a mess. He was excellent the 2 seasons prior. He was absolutely key for us to winning the FA Cup, as was Mainoo. That's not something to ignore.

People writing these 2 u20 players off because the club is a disaster is fecking wild to me, honestly some of the worst takes I see on here when people don't realize that it's quite hard for a young player to do well when everything around him is self imploding.
Click to expand...
'Excellent for 2 seasons' is exaggerating a bit. Garnacho was poor for the first half of last season, not much different than he's been this season. It was only when he was moved to the right that his form turned around (literally the first game he started on that side against Villa was easily his best game of the season up to that point) and he was mostly good for the second half of the season. I'd also hardly say he was 'excellent' in his first season. Exciting with a lot of promise, but not excellent.

This season he's been slightly better on the left again, but overall he's been quite poor on both sides. Although I believe the Sociedad match was the first time he's played on the right since Amorim came in and changed the formation, so it'll be interesting to see if that continues and how he does.

Garnacho has enough promise that I don't 'want' to sell him, but he also doesn't have as much potential as some people make out. As such, if we get a big enough offer we'd need to give it serious thought. It comes down to how good our new scouting and recruitment teams are, but we could easily use those funds to improve the team quite significantly. Of course we could also waste that money entirely, which is most likely would have happened under the old regime.
 
No players were shown the door. Only Rashford and Antony were loaned out. The rest of the players were already sold when ETH was still the coach.
 
elmo said:
No. He’s had plenty of poor games every season. He basically only had 1.5 seasons worth of performance where’s he’s above average. Under Sir Alex he would have been shipped off instead of being given a contract renewal.

People don’t want to accept it because he looks like he has a great attitude on the pitch and gives a great hi-five when celebrating a defensive play.

He’s one of the dumbest player to have played for us and consistently makes the wrong play.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree with what you have said in the bold text.

There is not point using standards from SAF era as we are simply not in a position to do so.

My point was that we need some of the average players also in the squad. He is always fit and available to play in various positions. And as you did mention, he did have a pretty solid 1.5 years. In the right functioning system, he has shown he can be a good player.

I am not too fixated about Dalot specifically. My point was about sacking 25 players at once. Sure, we can replace him once we have replaced the first 10-12 non performers in the next 2-4 years
 
Tallis said:
I don’t disagree with what you have said in the bold text.

There is not point using standards from SAF era as we are simply not in a position to do so.

My point was that we need some of the average players also in the squad. He is always fit and available to play in various positions. And as you did mention, he did have a pretty solid 1.5 years. In the right functioning system, he has shown he can be a good player.

I am not too fixated about Dalot specifically. My point was about sacking 25 players at once. Sure, we can replace him once we have replaced the first 10-12 non performers in the next 2-4 years
Click to expand...

He needs to be one of the first names gone. His availability is actually hurting us because he’s usually one of the worst performers every week.

You can improve on technique, but there’s no cure for being brainless on the pitch.
 
golden_blunder said:
Yeah it’s a bit of a strange number to chuck out.

Also are you going to get rid of players just in? It makes no sense
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I should have clarified. That's the stat from Sporting mentioned in the video. 25 out in Amorim's first season between sales and loans
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I genuinely believe we need two summers of enormous player turnover just to give us the club the jolt and complete reset needed. These 3 or 4 signings per summer ensure the malaise and rot spreads to new additions rather than be truly eradicated.

Goes without saying that the signings need to be very good players.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely spot on. It's like they get absorbed into the culture of fragility and mediocrity.
 
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