VAR and Refs | General Discussion

I'm not. I just don't think it's enough and for someone saying that I'm trying to get into his head that seems to be exactly what you seem to be doing with the first sentence. As I said it's fine to disagree. I'm not telling you you're wrong but you seem to be convinced yours is the only correct opinion when there's no consensus on this one.

I'm not trying to get in his head. I'm saying we can't know either way whether he's seen Dumfries and whether Dumfries' presence affected what he did, and so you can't use a lack of dive as evidence of anything, because the lack of dive might have been influenced by those factors.

Again, the subjectivity is not whether Maignan could have made or tried to make a save.

The subjectivity is whether Dumfries was in a position, relative to Maignan and the ball, that interfered with play.

If the goal had stood, it wouldn't have been based on Maignan not diving, it'd have been based on them determining Dumfries' position relative to Maignan and the ball wasn't such that it could be deemed an "interference".

As he was stood directly between Maignan and the ball, it was pretty clear cut.
 
The issue for me is how long it took to make an obvious decision . That begs the question , would var have intervened to overrule a clear and obvious refereeing error if it had not been disallowed by the onfield officials?

They took way too long to agree the right decision was made , that suggests to me , that even the most obvious ( which i feel that was ) decision is open to interpretation.

.
 
I'm not trying to get in his head. I'm saying we can't know either way whether he's seen Dumfries and whether Dumfries' presence affected what he did, and so you can't use a lack of dive as evidence of anything, because the lack of dive might have been influenced by those factors.

Again, the subjectivity is not whether Maignan could have made or tried to make a save.

The subjectivity is whether Dumfries was in a position, relative to Maignan and the ball, that interfered with play.

If the goal had stood, it wouldn't have been based on Maignan not diving, it'd have been based on them determining Dumfries' position relative to Maignan and the ball wasn't such that it could be deemed an "interference".

As he was stood directly between Maignan and the ball, it was pretty clear cut.

I'm not using the lack of a dive as evidence of anything. I'm using the fact that he didn't dive as the basis of my decision (He also wasn't set to dive in that direction which is less important as that leads to the grey area of what you're suggesting I'm saying) . I'm just repeating myself now and you're constantly misinterpreting what I've said so I'll leave it there.
 
I'm not using the lack of a dive as evidence of anything. I'm using the fact that he didn't dive as the basis of my decision (He also wasn't set to dive in that direction which is less important as that leads to the grey area of what you're suggesting I'm saying) . I'm just repeating myself now and you're constantly misinterpreting what I've said so I'll leave it there.

I'm not misinterpreting you. You're just not making anywhere near as much sense as you seem to believe you are. The first two sentences you've written there are completely contradictory. If it's the basis of your decision, then it's being used as evidence to support your decision.

Therefore, in using it as evidence for the basis of your decision, you're willfully ignoring why Maignan might not have dived. It might have been that he knew he wasn't getting there. It might have been that he simply didn't see the shot until it was too late. It might have been because he'd clocked the six foot tall footballer in a bright orange kit stood directly in his way. It is the latter possibility that makes "not diving" irrelevant.

Again, the only things that matter are:
  • Maignan's position
  • The path of the ball
  • Dumfries' position relative to both
The subjectivity comes in determining whether Dumfries was in a position to influence Maignan's reaction to or ability to save the shot, and he quite obviously was, given he was within a yard of him, directly in the way of the path of the ball.
 
Dumfries doesn't stop the keeper from saving the ball. Don't want to see offside there in principle, even though with the modern guidance they'll disallow it and it's not a wrong decision.

There have been worse ones from corners, one in the Asian cup iirc. If the player isn't actually stopping the keeper and isn't gaining an advantage it shouldn't be offside.
 
I'm not misinterpreting you. You're just not making anywhere near as much sense as you seem to believe you are. The first two sentences you've written there are completely contradictory. If it's the basis of your decision, then it's being used as evidence to support your decision.

Therefore, in using it as evidence for the basis of your decision, you're willfully ignoring why Maignan might not have dived. It might have been that he knew he wasn't getting there. It might have been that he simply didn't see the shot until it was too late. It might have been because he'd clocked the six foot tall footballer in a bright orange kit stood directly in his way. It is the latter possibility that makes "not diving" irrelevant.

Again, the only things that matter are:
  • Maignan's position
  • The path of the ball
  • Dumfries' position relative to both
The subjectivity comes in determining whether Dumfries was in a position to influence Maignan's reaction to or ability to save the shot, and he quite obviously was, given he was within a yard of him, directly in the way of the path of the ball.

Ok mate. There's a difference between what I'm saying and what you're interpreting it as. The fact that he didn't dive means he wasn't blocked to me. Anything else you're suggesting is some nebulous interpretation of what's going through his mind which I'm not doing.

You also seen to have no room to accept opinions other than your own. Good luck
 
Did I say that in a previous post, I didn't say it in the one you replied to?

Does it say that in the rules though? Does it mention minimal affect on the keeper or is it more about preventing another player from playing the ball?

Goalies dive into contact all the time so I don't really agree on that point. It's an interpretation either way though and it's not a clear cut incident.
If you don’t think that how can you not think it’s offside then?

I don’t know what it says in the rules but given the decision being given I’d say I understand it properly whereas you are the one arguing it’s wrong?
 
If you don’t think that how can you not think it’s offside then?

I don’t know what it says in the rules but given the decision being given I’d say I understand it properly whereas you are the one arguing it’s wrong?

Well you could look them up. The reason they gave it is likely that they determined that the attacker was preventing the keeper from reaching the ball. My issue is he didn't even try to get to the ball and furthermore wasn't even set to dive that way after the first save.

Again as I've said, that's my interpretation and there are other interpretations. Some fans/pundits agree and some don't. I think it's a bit of a soft decision personally.
 
Well you could look them up. The reason they gave it is likely that they determined that the attacker was preventing the keeper from reaching the ball. My issue is he didn't even try to get to the ball and furthermore wasn't even set to dive that way after the first safe.
Im not going to go read the exact wording of the offside law but, again, it seems like it’s you who needs to. From ESPN.

Would Maignan have saved the shot? That's not a consideration for the officials; there's no decision about a keeper's ability. What the officials have to ask themselves is whether Dumfries had an impact on Maignan, and if that affected his decision not to make a dive to attempt the save. Would the keeper have had to dive through the Dutch player to get to the ball? It's without doubt a fair assessment considering Dumfries' position.

It was quite an easy call to rule out the goal. So the truly controversial part is why it took the VAR, Stuart Attwell, and his assistants from Germany and Switzerland so long to support the on-field decision: 2 minutes and 47 seconds after Taylor blew his whistle for the offside. It is the longest VAR review of the tournament. It should have been a quick check and complete -- which would have made it clearer the on-field call was indeed correct.
 
Ok mate. There's a difference between what I'm saying and what you're interpreting it as. The fact that he didn't dive means he wasn't blocked to me. Anything else you're suggesting is some nebulous interpretation of what's going through his mind which I'm not doing.

You also seen to have no room to accept opinions other than your own. Good luck

I can accept an opinion that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You keep repeating that I'm misinterpreting you but haven't made any sense in explaining how.

You literally just claimed not to be using something as evidence, only to immediately follow that up with the claim that the very same thing you're not using as evidence is, in fact, the thing that your decision is based on (i.e. that thing is evidence supporting your decision).

I'm also not interpreting what's going through his mind. I'm doing the opposite. I've pointed out a few things that could have been, but the point is that we can't possibly know which (if any) are correct, so you can't use the decision not to dive as evidence of anything.

Even the bold doesn't make sense. Do you have to physically collide with something blocking your path for it to actually count as blocking? Or is the fact that we aren't incorporeal and thus unable to phase through objects or other beings enough to say, "that's blocking the way" when, for example, an opposition player stands between the goalkeeper and the ball he'd like to try and stop from going into his goal?

Just to wrap this up, here's the law:

The attacking player is penalised for preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the goalkeeper's line of vision.

Nothing about likelihood of actually playing the ball. Nothing about actually having to attempt to play the ball. Explicitly says "preventing an opponent from being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the goalkeeper's line of vision".

Dumfries was clearly obstructing Maignan's line of vision and preventing him from being able to play the ball, because he was stood within a yard of him, directly in the way of the ball.

If you don’t think that how can you not think it’s offside then?

I don’t know what it says in the rules but given the decision being given I’d say I understand it properly whereas you are the one arguing it’s wrong?

It's the massive contradiction in his argument.

He's said he's not interpreting Maignan's thoughts, but by using "not diving" as the crux, he has, by default, dismissed the possibility that Dumfries being so close and in the way of the ball was a factor in the decision not to dive, and has therefore interpreted Maignan's thoughts. To accept this possibility is to acknowledge that he's interfering with play, and that the decision was correct.
 
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Fixed that for you. Keeper was never saving the shot, it went past him before he knew what was going on.

There's no fixing required . It's your opinion that the keeper never saves the shot , you might be correct , but it's subjective . it doesn't alter the fact that there was an offside player , a real life obstruction between where ball ended up and where keeper needed to get to .

If hes onside , it's a goal . He wasn't , so he's interfering . It's that simple .
 
I can accept an opinion that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You keep repeating that I'm misinterpreting you but haven't made any sense in explaining how.

You literally just claimed not to be using something as evidence, only to immediately follow that up with the claim that the very same thing you're not using as evidence is, in fact, the thing that your decision is based on (i.e. that thing is evidence supporting your decision).

I'm also not interpreting what's going through his mind. I'm doing the opposite. I've pointed out a few things that could have been, but the point is that we can't possibly know which (if any) are correct, so you can't use the decision not to dive as evidence of anything.

Even the bold doesn't make sense. Do you have to physically collide with something blocking your path for it to actually count as blocking? Or is the fact that we aren't incorporeal and thus unable to phase through objects or other beings enough to say, "that's blocking the way" when, for example, an opposition player stands between the goalkeeper and the ball he'd like to try and stop from going into his goal?

Just to wrap this up, here's the law:



Nothing about likelihood of actually playing the ball. Nothing about actually having to attempt to play the ball. Explicitly says "preventing an opponent from being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the goalkeeper's line of vision".

Dumfries was clearly obstructing Maignan's line of vision and preventing him from being able to play the ball, because he was stood within a yard of him, directly in the way of the ball.



It's the massive contradiction in his argument.

He's said he's not interpreting Maignan's thoughts, but by using "not diving" as the crux, he has, by default, dismissed the possibility that Dumfries being so close and in the way of the ball was a factor in the decision not to dive, and has therefore interpreted Maignan's thoughts. To accept this possibility is to acknowledge that he's interfering with play, and that the decision was correct.

I wasn't going to reply but he's absolutely not blocking his line of vision. :lol:

That only comes into play if you're blocking the keeper's view of the shot and are between the keeper and the player taking the shot. It's the next part of the rule that's relevant. I'm definitely done now. I've just arrived at my cousin's for pre-gig drinks.
 
I wasn't going to reply but he's absolutely not blocking his line of vision. :lol:

That only comes into play if you're blocking the keeper's view of the shot and are between the keeper and the player taking the shot. It's the next part of the rule that's relevant. I'm definitely done now. I've just arrived at my cousin's for pre-gig drinks.

So Maignan was able to look through Dumfries, at the ball, as it passed the other side of him?
 
There's no fixing required . It's your opinion that the keeper never saves the shot , you might be correct , but it's subjective . it doesn't alter the fact that there was an offside player , a real life obstruction between where ball ended up and where keeper needed to get to .

If hes onside , it's a goal . He wasn't , so he's interfering . It's that simple .
He’s really not. The keeper attempts to save it and fails because he went with his feet, he was slow to react, the Netherlands player is irrelevant, It’s a clear goal.

IF the keeper dived because he wasn’t slow to react, it’s a different story.
 
So Maignan was able to look through Dumfries, at the ball, as it passed the other side of him?

That's never how that section of the rule is applied. If you have to be blocking the view of the kicker/flight of the ball. Dumfries was doing neither. You're not helping yourself at all here.
 
That's never how that section of the rule is applied. If you have to be blocking the view of the kicker/flight of the ball. Dumfries was doing neither. You're not helping yourself at all here.

The law quite clearly states "being able to play the ball" too.

Do you want to explain how having a player within a yard of you, in the exact direction you need to move, isn't interfering with your ability to play the ball?

Also, not helping myself?

I'm not the one who claimed not be using something as evidence when it's the exact same thing I've admitted I'm basing my argument on.

I'm also not the one claiming not to be interpreting the keeper's thoughts while also outright dismissing something that he very possibly could have been thinking of.

Carry on though.
 
@Withnail I'll make it very simple for you.

My view is this:

Dumfries was offside. He was stood very close to Maignan, directly between him and the ball.

Even if Maignan was perfectly sighted, perfectly set, and was the best goalkeeper the world had ever seen, Dumfries, standing where he was, rendered any attempt at a save that might have been made fruitless.

As we can only speculate on how well sighted Maignan was, how well set he was to dive, and his abilities to pull of a save in that moment, they are redundant factors when it comes to making the decision. The law reflects this.

Your view is:

Maignan didn't dive into Dumfries so it wasn't offside.

However, regardless of how Maignan came to the decision not to dive, the implication of your view is that Maignan could not have possibly taken Dumfries into account, because for you to acknowledge that possibility is to acknowledge that Dumfries could have been interfering.

Your argument doesn't stand up to the simplest bit of scrutiny, no matter how many times you repeat it.
 
They need to get those foreigners off VAR. Who do they think they are, coming in making these decisions so quickly and getting them (mostly) right?

#justice4PLrefs
 
@Withnail I'll make it very simple for you.

My view is this:

Dumfries was offside. He was stood very close to Maignan, directly between him and the ball.

Even if Maignan was perfectly sighted, perfectly set, and was the best goalkeeper the world had ever seen, Dumfries, standing where he was, rendered any attempt at a save that might have been made fruitless.

As we can only speculate on how well sighted Maignan was, how well set he was to dive, and his abilities to pull of a save in that moment, they are redundant factors when it comes to making the decision. The law reflects this.

Your view is:

Maignan didn't dive into Dumfries so it wasn't offside.

However, regardless of how Maignan came to the decision not to dive, the implication of your view is that Maignan could not have possibly taken Dumfries into account, because for you to acknowledge that possibility is to acknowledge that Dumfries could have been interfering.

Your argument doesn't stand up to the simplest bit of scrutiny, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Yawn. If you knew the rule you were supposedly applying your argument would have more weight.

It's quite funny you're continuing this with multiple posts when I've told you I accepted your logic, obviously that was before you admitted applying a rule that's irrelevant to the incident. I've no idea why you're pushing this so hard. We have different interpretations of an incident. I've said multiple times that I accept your logic but disagree because it's not clear cut.

It's getting a bit weird now mate. I'm allowed to have my interpretation and I accept yours, well before you quoted the wrong section of the rule ;)

Honestly I've no idea why you've such a hard on over this but ok you do you do and I'll do me, fair?
 
@Withnail i feel like you’re confusing debating the law itself with what happened in this scenario.

Oh well honestly review the rules and make your own decision. Professing not to know the rules and then quoting a Sports channel's interpretation of the rules doesn't really hold much weight for me.

What's your opinion? I'm not interested in what ESPN have to say.
 
Yawn. If you knew the rule you were supposedly applying your argument would have more weight.

It's quite funny you're continuing this with multiple posts when I've told you I accepted your logic, obviously that was before you admitted applying a rule that's irrelevant to the incident. I've no idea why you're pushing this so hard. We have different interpretations of an incident. I've said multiple times that I accept your logic but disagree because it's not clear cut.

It's getting a bit weird now mate. I'm allowed to have my interpretation and I accept yours, well before you quoted the wrong section of the rule ;)

Honestly I've no idea why you've such a hard on over this but ok you do you do and I'll do me, fair?

You have no logic, as I highlighted.

Also, you're the one who responded after saying he was done and was going to a gig, and then again at 1am.

You literally just skirt around trying to explain your point (because you know it doesn't make sense), instead pointing out part of the law (that you've not referred to at all) that you think doesn't apply, and accusing others of being "weird".
 
Oh well honestly review the rules and make your own decision. Professing not to know the rules and then quoting a Sports channel's interpretation of the rules doesn't really hold much weight for me.

What's your opinion? I'm not interested in what ESPN have to say.
I hadn’t looked up the wording for the offside rule, I’m fairly certain most don’t need to. I since did and it confirms - as the article says - that what people are saying to you is correct. I’m really not sure what you’re arguing here because it’s been proven categorically wrong so your issue is with the actual law (that’s fine) not with what happened (clear cut offside).
 
I hadn’t looked up the wording for the offside rule, I’m fairly certain most don’t need to. I since did and it confirms - as the article says - that what people are saying to you is correct. I’m really not sure what you’re arguing here because it’s been proven categorically wrong so your issue is with the actual law (that’s fine) not with what happened (clear cut offside).

I haven't actually been arguing for a very long time and I haven't told anyone they were wrong so there's that.
 
You have no logic, as I highlighted.

Also, you're the one who responded after saying he was done and was going to a gig, and then again at 1am.

You literally just skirt around trying to explain your point (because you know it doesn't make sense), instead pointing out part of the law (that you've not referred to at all) that you think doesn't apply, and accusing others of being "weird".

Well you replied to me and then you also quoted me.

It's the part of the rule you quoted earlier which doesn't apply and I told you at the time. You know the bit where you thought it he was blocking his line of vision.

Explicitly says "preventing an opponent from being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the goalkeeper's line of vision".

You're claiming I've no logic but you've apparently based this whole tiresome exchange on the irrelevant section, unless you retro-fitted that argument when you eventually checked the rule.

It's the bit about interfering with his ability to play the ball which applies.

  • a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12

My contention all along has been that you have to actually try to play the ball for that to come into play. Maignan didn't do that.
 
I haven't actually been arguing for a very long time and I haven't told anyone they were wrong so there's that.
Not sure how either is relevant? As below post to Alex99 you’re proving your issue is with the law itself because your ‘contention’ is irrelevant to the actual law.
 
Not sure how either is relevant? As below post to Alex99 you’re proving your issue is with the law itself because your ‘contention’ is irrelevant to the actual law.

Well now that you've looked up the law:

Do you think you can interfere with a players movement towards the ball when they're not, in fact, attempting to move towards the ball?
 
Well you replied to me and then you also quoted me.

It's the part of the rule you quoted earlier which doesn't apply and I told you at the time. You know the bit where you thought it he was blocking his line of vision.



You're claiming I've no logic but you've apparently based this whole tiresome exchange on the irrelevant section, unless you retro-fitted that argument when you eventually checked the rule.

It's the bit about interfering with his ability to play the ball which applies.



My contention all along has been that you have to actually try to play the ball for that to come into play. Maignan didn't do that.

I hadn't bothered reading the actual wording until your exchange with tomaldinho, and I just copied the bit BBC Sport included in their piece about the goal.

My argument is based on a player obviously being in the way of the goalkeeper. The wording or specific part of the law made little odds, because the law obviously covers players being in the way of the goalkeeper.

Are you genuinely arguing that you're not interfering with a player's ability to play the ball when you're stood directly in their way of it?
 
I hadn't bothered reading the actual wording until your exchange with tomaldinho, and I just copied the bit BBC Sport included in their piece about the goal.

My argument is based on a player obviously being in the way of the goalkeeper. The wording or specific part of the law made little odds, because the law obviously covers players being in the way of the goalkeeper.

Are you genuinely arguing that you're not interfering with a player's ability to play the ball when you're stood directly in their way of it?

Well exactly. You didn't know the law at all. You just decided I was wrong and that was that. How tedious of you. Goodbye
 
Well exactly. You didn't know the law at all. You just decided I was wrong and that was that. How tedious of you. Goodbye

I knew the law, just not the exact wording.

You seem to think blocking requires an actual collision, which is bizarre.
 
Well now that you've looked up the law:

Do you think you can interfere with a players movement towards the ball when they're not, in fact, attempting to move towards the ball?
Apart from the fact your interpretation is wrong, just to end your argument, he does move towards the ball… have you seen the replay?
 
Apart from the fact your interpretation is wrong, just to end your argument, he does move towards the ball… have you seen the replay?

Tells others they don't know the law and they're wrong.

Quotes law that clearly states what the others were saying.

Claims to still be right.
 
Apart from the fact your interpretation is wrong, just to end your argument, he does move towards the ball… have you seen the replay?

Only in the loosest possible sense. He moves slightly to his left. Take away Dumfries and it's still a goal. He's not prevented anything as far as I'm concerned . As I said earlier, I can see why it's given but it's soft, imo.
 
Good to see VAR solved all the controversy...

Wolves need to keep putting it to a vote every season.

Even if they lose 19-1, it's still worth putting it on the table every season when it's this shite.
 
Only in the loosest possible sense. He moves slightly to his left. Take away Dumfries and it's still a goal. He's not prevented anything as far as I'm concerned . As I said earlier, I can see why it's given but it's soft, imo.

So he moves then?

Let's break it down, shall we?

"a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball"

Dumfries was clearly offside and clearly in the way of any path Maignan might have taken towards the ball.

Your entire argument hinges on the "interferes with the movement of the opponent" bit, because you seem to believe that a collision of some sort has to happen for one player to have interfered with the movement of another.

I would argue that you can quite obviously interfere with someone's movement from point A to point B if you are standing directly between point A and point B, regardless of whether that person actually attempts to move. People are aware that they cannot simply pass through other people like ghosts, and sometimes decide to make only minor movements, or even not to move at all, if their path is clearly obstructed.

In non-football terms, if someone decides to park across my driveway and block me in, the movement of my car has been interfered with, even if I don't actually move my car into or towards the car blocking it.

Even if we accept that movement has to occur, by your own admission, it did. There is nothing in the law about the extent or force of the movement, so to go back to the earlier point, we simply do not want officials trying to read the thoughts of goalkeepers in situations like this, especially when there's a reasonable chance their movement (or lack thereof) could have been influenced by the offside player standing directly in their way.

"this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12."

Dumfries standing within a yard of Maignan, between him and the path of the ball, is quite clearly impacting his ability to play or challenge for it. This is irrefutable, and there's not much more to add to this bit.

As tomaldinho pointed out, your issue actually seems to be with the law as written, because nothing in your argument is actually supported by it.

However, I'd even disagree with that, because your argument seems to want the law to incorporate subjectivity on why a goalkeeper may or may not attempt to make a save when there's a player directly preventing that, whether a goalkeeper is even aware of the offside player directly preventing them from attempting a save, whether the goalkeeper has sufficiently sorted his foot placement and balance out to attempt a save, or even if the goalkeeper is simply good enough to pull of the save required.

It's fine if you think Maignan's not getting there regardless of Dumfries, but the fact is that we simply can't know that precisely because Dumfries was there. To continually harp on about the law and still end up falling back on a subjective view of Maignan's ability as a goalkeeper to support your argument (that isn't all supported by the law you keep mentioning) is laughable.