Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[essao]

Lets be clear, there's no excusing the league position. If you bothered to properly analyse the school of thought that some posters had, you'd see that.

But you're too busy endorsing childish name calling, peddling hyperbole and creating an over exaggerated narrative.

The rules say'criticize the post,not the poster',and yet here you are,using words like 'childish'. I choose not to go down that hole. Please point out what is hyperbole and show what this exaggerated narrative is.Essentially give a counter-narrative to the post.That is what grown-ups do.And if you bothered to read the post,you will see there is no reference to league position.That is why I focused on the games involving Newport,Coventry and relegated Sheffield.This allows us to focus on the on-field performance without giving too much attention to other issues.

 

[Sir Erik ten Hag]

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Why not livestream this “debate”? Will generate more views and subscribes than City got for the FA Cup Final surely.

 

[Raoul]

I wouldn't trust anything any of the journos publish until something definitive comes out. The likes of Jacobs and others are under pressure to create stories because they know how much interest there is in ETH's job situation, which usually means they're incentivized to overdramatize their stories for clicks.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

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So Blanc needs to get in touch with @VP89 and Brailsford needs to talk to @stevoc

 

[Escobar]

Why not livestream this “debate”? Will generate more views and subscribes than City got for the FA Cup Final surely.

I am for a trial by combat

 

[red_de_pologne]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was their actual opinion - Brailsford knows very little about football and sacked 5 managers at Nice. Only since he stepped back and focused on United, things have improved at Nice.

 

[TsuWave]

Brailsford knows very little about football and sacked 5 managers at Nice. Only since he stepped back and focused on United, things have improved at Nice.

Their pattern doesn't exhibit any readily recognisable changes. At least in terms of league standings

19/20 - 5th
20/21 - 9th
21/22 - 5th
22/23 - 9th
23/24 - 5th

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Their pattern doesn't exhibit any readily recognisable changes. At least in terms of league standings

19/20 - 5th
20/21 - 9th
21/22 - 5th
22/23 - 9th
23/24 - 5th

So 9th next year?

 

[VP89]

The rules say'criticize the post,not the poster',and yet here you are,using words like 'childish'. I choose not to go down that hole. Please point out what is hyperbole and show what this exaggerated narrative is.Essentially give a counter-narrative to the post.That is what grown-ups do.And if you bothered to read the post,you will see there is no reference to league position.That is why I focused on the games involving Newport,Coventry and relegated Sheffield.This allows us to focus on the on-field performance without giving too much attention to other issues.

Going out and calling someone a fan boy is childish, just grow up and post better, it'd not hard.

 

[Sir Erik ten Hag]

I am for a trial by combat

How about a Trial of Seven?

 

[stevoc]

So Blanc needs to get in touch with @VP89 and Brailsford needs to talk to @stevoc

No need they can just have a sit down and read 10-20 pages of this shit. Then they can sum the arguments up with.

Dave: "Suicidal tactics"

Blanc: "Injuries"

 

[essao]

Going out and calling someone a fan boy is childish, just grow up and post better, it'd not hard.

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines a fan boy as 'a boy or man who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan of someone or something'. The Oxford Learners Dictionary says that a fanboy is 'a person who admires a particular person very much'. As you can see there is nothing remotely derogatory,demeaning or childish about this term. It is a good idea to research before getting too hot under the collar about any word. It is what well-rounded adults do.

Now,if Ten Hag was to get booted and the next manager puts out a team that doesn't get overrun by almost all the opponents including those from the lower leagues,does not spout rubbish excuses when he loses due to suicidal and inexplicable(poor) tactics and generally exhibits an upward trajectory in terms of team results and general performance, I will not throw a tantrum when someone calls me a fanboy. In fact I will be proud if somene labels me his fanboy. But that is as long as the team performs. Of course when performances start declining and excuses start I will stop being a fan boy because the team comes first. It is not hard to understand that,is it?And am still waiting for a calm and reasoned explanation on the exaggerations and hyperbole in my post.

 

[Rista]

Which is bad considering our fans don’t give managers over 2 years nowadays and want them gone despite winning 2 trophies in between the rebuilding years. If we had poch we may not win anything for 5 years. I’d rather we win the odd FA cup during a rebuilding period than go on another long trophy doubt. Which manager do you thinks getting 5 years with our impatient people?

We have the most patient fanbase of all big clubs by far. You're just saying it's a "rebuild" to excuse the horrible results. We should not be looking as bad on the pitch as we are, "rebuild" or not. If we had Poch we would never know if he'd not win anything for 5 years because he would be sacked after a season or two if it was going that badly. That's how football works. You cannot possibly tell me "if we get the right signings and have few injuries we will try to fight for 4th" was the 3 year plan when Ten Hag arrived.

 

[stevoc]

Which is bad considering our fans don’t give managers over 2 years nowadays and want them gone despite winning 2 trophies in between the rebuilding years. If we had poch we may not win anything for 5 years. I’d rather we win the odd FA cup during a rebuilding period than go on another long trophy doubt. Which manager do you thinks getting 5 years with our impatient people?

Do you think Ten Hag can win the league in the next 2-3 seasons?

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Wow they had a dip. Injuries and a disappointing result against Benfica will. certainly have something to do with it.

As a whole the season was on par with others and better in some respects.

good to see you know better than anyone.

 

[Drainy]

Did you watch the team play?

Teams they beat to win a trophy in 2024: Newport County, Nottingham Forest, Liverpool (Extra Time), Coventry City (Penalties), Man City. Liverpool was fighting for the Premiere League and Europa League at the time. Man City had just won the Premiere League off a Quadruple the previous season, so they did not give their best.

Team finished 8th in the Premier League in 2024, their worst finish ever.
Team finished last in an easy Champions League draw.
Team had a negative goal differental for the first time in 34 years.

I'll admit they did well in 2023, but if you watched them play this season, they LOOKED HORRIBLE. Name the best three results of their PL season and then simmer on that. They struggled against bottom table teams. They were a joke. No one was afraid of them.

Yeah Liverpool definitely weren't trying, of course.

 

[mintyred]

Which is bad considering our fans don’t give managers over 2 years nowadays and want them gone despite winning 2 trophies in between the rebuilding years. If we had poch we may not win anything for 5 years. I’d rather we win the odd FA cup during a rebuilding period than go on another long trophy doubt. Which manager do you thinks getting 5 years with our impatient people?

Right, but we're not rebuilding. This is the completed build under Ten Hag, I think people don't get that.

 

[MinGin]

Did you watch the team play?

Teams they beat to win a trophy in 2024: Newport County, Nottingham Forest, Liverpool (Extra Time), Coventry City (Penalties), Man City. Liverpool was fighting for the Premiere League and Europa League at the time. Man City had just won the Premiere League off a Quadruple the previous season, so they did not give their best.

Team finished 8th in the Premier League in 2024, their worst finish ever.
Team finished last in an easy Champions League draw.
Team had a negative goal differental for the first time in 34 years.

I'll admit they did well in 2023, but if you watched them play this season, they LOOKED HORRIBLE. Name the best three results of their PL season and then simmer on that. They struggled against bottom table teams. They were a joke. No one was afraid of them.

Also, team maybe had the most injury records in 2024 and within 34 years.....

Liverpool dropped 30 ppt (99 to 69) with reduce 26 goal different (56 to 26) between 19/20 & 20/21 after one VVD long injury at that year (Kloop 5th year)
Even a turned champions team, the performance and result will be so much different when key player(s) got injured....

( Digression: also, we got targeted by VAR this year to make it win to draw, draw to lost)

 

[romufc]

And what is all this based on? Just on what previously happened. "We've sacked managers and it didn't work out long term so we need to stop sacking managers, that's the solution". Literally gambler's fallacy. Do people never watch what other teams do? If the manager is not working out, you sack him and try with someone else. 99/100 times it's the right decision.

Actually, yes, I have watched other teams.

In the PL, who are the regular title contenders?

Pep, Klopp and now Arteta.

They all let those managers build their style, granted pep done it quicker than the rest.

What do they do? they back the managers to create a working culture, get rid of players that didnt work and replace them, not just rely on the manager to scout players like we do at Manutd.

 

[Wilt]

Their pattern doesn't exhibit any readily recognisable changes. At least in terms of league standings

19/20 - 5th
20/21 - 9th
21/22 - 5th
22/23 - 9th
23/24 - 5th

Wonder where they’ll finish next season

 

[Syphon Wallet]

How is this still not sorted out?
What a complete farce, this should have been already decided before the season ended.
Turning nto a complete circus and undermining Ten Hag if they keep him.
I voted to replace Ten Hag, but just keep him now, feels like a guaranteed disaster to replace him now.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Also, team maybe had the most injury records in 2024 and within 34 years.....

Liverpool dropped 30 ppt (99 to 69) with reduce 26 goal different (56 to 26) between 19/20 & 20/21 after one VVD long injury at that year (Kloop 5th year)
Even a turned champions team, the performance and result will be so much different when key player(s) got injured....

Liverpool had two consecutive seasons with point tallies close to 100. It is incredibly hard to repeat that for a third consecutive year, nobody has done it in the PL in fact, there is little reason to believe they were going to achieve that until the VVD injury. So this comparison is likely incorrect.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

I wouldnt expect anything today. Next week and late next week in my opinion.

 

[Steve Bruce]

Which is bad considering our fans don’t give managers over 2 years nowadays and want them gone despite winning 2 trophies in between the rebuilding years. If we had poch we may not win anything for 5 years. I’d rather we win the odd FA cup during a rebuilding period than go on another long trophy doubt. Which manager do you thinks getting 5 years with our impatient people?

Exactly, in the post you quoted, he agrees there will be set backs over a 5 year period but we are literally in year 2 of a project and there's been a setback this season mainly imo due to an unprecedented amounted of injuries and we have half the fan base wanting him out with imo no credible managers available.

 

[romufc]

No manager gets 100% what he wants. Sometimes the club disagrees with what they want, sometimes the manager wants players that don't want to come (or don't want to leave), sometimes the manager wants players that are just too expensive. Ferguson missed out on plenty of players, Guardiola missed out on plenty, Klopp missed out on plenty, etc. It's the managers job to do the best they possibly can with what they have.

We can't spend unlimited money, so the reason ETH had to make do with the likes of Weghorst, Sabitzer, Amrabat, etc on loan is because he wanted other players that ended up taking all the transfer funds. He seemed to be incredibly fixated on FDJ, a player that didn't want to come (he's also said that he wanted both an FDJ and a Casemiro, not an either/or). Reports are he wanted Kane, a player that Spurs would never have sold to us. A manager having unrealistic expectations doesn't mean he wasn't backed.

The managers have been working under a poor structure. There's certainly no denying that. However that doesn't mean the managers shouldn't be held responsible for the things that they can control. That structure is also being ripped up and replaced, so I'm not sure why you constantly repeat that if we sack ETH we'll be in the same position again in two years. We definitely might be, but only if we get a manager that isn't good enough. If we get the right manager we won't be.

If you agree that the four previous managers deserved to be sacked, then there is no relevance to bringing them up and saying that sacking them didn't work so therefore we shouldn't sack the current one. What happened with those four is completely irrelevant. We've replaced plenty of players as well, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't replace current players if they aren't good enough either. It's exactly the same.

Again, I am always met with manager doesnt get what he wants 100%, I think everyone knows that. I like how you focus on just the signings in, I am also on about outgoings.

Again, its funny people actually think that the manager decides on the fee. Yes Antony was a big fee, but the club never learn from Pogba, Maguire, Fred, Di Maria, Lukaku and many other big name signings. So did you say it was Ten Hag who paid 70m for Casemiro ? when it was reported the club had been in contact before Ten Hag was appointed?

The manager is held responsible which is why every manager since SAF has been sacked.

I think you are missing the point, I didn't say sacking the managers was a mistake. I get it, its easier to sack the manager, get a new manager bounce, everyone gets excited for 6-8 months and the same issues come up again and we sack the manager.

 

[Rista]

Actually, yes, I have watched other teams.

In the PL, who are the regular title contenders?

Pep, Klopp and now Arteta.

They all let those managers build their style, granted pep done it quicker than the rest.

What do they do? they back the managers to create a working culture, get rid of players that didnt work and replace them, not just rely on the manager to scout players like we do at Manutd.

They don't "back" the managers in sense that they give them time no matter what. It's not the magic solution. Arteta is literally the only example and an outlier but then you could ask why didn't they give Emery more time then if that's how you do it?

You say the fans don't learn which is true but for the exact opposite reason. We need to learn the next manager will probably not be a messiah who will lead us to glory and stay for a decade. And that's fine. Other clubs have had success with what you call "short term thinking". There is no an exact winning formula.

 

[Tincanalley]

Look, it couldn't be any clearer unless you're being intentionally obtuse.

Blanc puts on a bald cap and pretends to be Ten Hag, and Brailsford puts on a wig and pretends to be Sir Jim. And then they shout at each other for hours in vigorous debate until one of them concedes due to boredom. And then the oil lathered shagging starts...

Any Glazer input?

 

[JPRouve]

Also, team maybe had the most injury records in 2024 and within 34 years.....

Liverpool dropped 30 ppt (99 to 69) with reduce 26 goal different (56 to 26) between 19/20 & 20/21 after one VVD long injury at that year (Kloop 5th year)
Even a turned champions team, the performance and result will be so much different when key player(s) got injured....

( Digression: also, we got targeted by VAR this year to make it win to draw, draw to lost)

Three things. Seasons that end in the 90s are exceptionally good season while 69 or in the 70s is fairly normal for a top 4 team, Liverpool didn't just lose VVD, they also lost Matip, Gomez, Thiago, Jota and a bunch of other players injured, alsothe part of the season where they totally melted down was when Fabinho who was moved to CB was also injured around February, so they had Henderson as CB next to the likes of Phillips.

But the most important point is that if Klopp didn't elevate his team to an elite level in previous seasons and won the league/CL, if we were talking about a team that went from 75 to 60 points he would be sacked. That's how he got the job in the first place.

 

[Nebeolisa Cyril]

See all this things you guys are talking about sacking or not sacking...

I'm beginning to feel that ten Hag is someone that no matter what happens you're guaranteed a trophy at the end of the season. I feel that narrative should be cemented by just throwing and season at him to see whether he'll still achieve that.

 

[Plant0x84]

Ineos sport are best in class dontchaknow. They got Nice from 9th to 9th.

This was getting a drool face emoji, until I realised there isn’t a drool face emoji anymore. Sad times.

 

[romufc]

They don't "back" the managers in sense that they give them time no matter what. It's not the magic solution. Arteta is literally the only example and an outlier but then you could ask why didn't they give Emery more time then if that's how you do it?

You say the fans don't learn which is true but for the exact opposite reason. We need to learn the next manager will probably not be a messiah who will lead us to glory and stay for a decade. And that's fine. Other clubs have had success with what you call "short term thinking". There is no an exact winning formula.

No one is saying to give the manager all the time in the world. Klopp is another example, he didnt win the league until his 4th season.

Yes, Arsenal got rid of Emry and learnt you cant just hire and sack managers. The culture and atmosphere needs to be changed.

There actually is a winning formula, us fans just chose to ignore it. Clubs that win have a structure that allows the managers to win.

City - Created a structure before Pep arrived
Liverpool - Have a structure, they had Edwards and Klopp working together, a sporting director who had the balls to say no to a manager when he wanted certain players and said no we will get you these.
Chelsea - Won when they had a structure, without one, look at them.
Arsenal - Changed the structure with Edu a few years back.

Most clubs that win have a very good structure above the manager.

We at Manutd, we think the manager can do it all, scout, negotiate, coach, manage.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

They don't "back" the managers in sense that they give them time no matter what. It's not the magic solution. Arteta is literally the only example and an outlier but then you could ask why didn't they give Emery more time then if that's how you do it?

Arteta is a tricky example.

He deserves credit, and so do Arsenal.

But let's be real here. They have not won the league. They have not hit 90 points in the league. They have done little of note in European competition. Their squad is very good, but IMO it is lacking in the kind of top player that all the great teams have.

At this point in Klopp's tenure at Liverpool, they had won the Premier League, had two consecutive seasons with almost 100 league points, had won the Champions League, played two additional European finals, and had players near the top spots of Ballon d'Or voting lists.

We don't know what the future holds for Arsenal. We do know that Klopp's Liverpool would never truly reach the highs of those 3rd/4th seasons again. For all we know this Arsenal's high point. Pochettino's Spurs also reached 2nd with 86 points once upon a time (and a CL final), we know how that turned out.

 

[Rista]

No one is saying to give the manager all the time in the world. Klopp is another example, he didnt win the league until his 4th season.

Yes, Arsenal got rid of Emry and learnt you cant just hire and sack managers. The culture and atmosphere needs to be changed.

There actually is a winning formula, us fans just chose to ignore it. Clubs that win have a structure that allows the managers to win.

City - Created a structure before Pep arrived
Liverpool - Have a structure, they had Edwards and Klopp working together, a sporting director who had the balls to say no to a manager when he wanted certain players and said no we will get you these.
Chelsea - Won when they had a structure, without one, look at them.
Arsenal - Changed the structure with Edu a few years back.

Most clubs that win have a very good structure above the manager.

We at Manutd, we think the manager can do it all, scout, negotiate, coach, manage.

Ah yes, when things go well it's obviously because of the "structure". Structure that we as fans know next to nothing about.

So Arsenal only recently learned the magic formula is "you don't sack the manager". That seems reasonable. What about the other 99 out of 100 cases where that isn't the right decision?

Klopp is not an example. There's quite a bit between nothing and winning the league. He got them playing good football and results came afterwards, in Europe and then domestically as well. Not at all comparable to our situation.

 

[stefan92]

So Arsenal only recently learned the magic formula is "you don't sack the manager". That seems reasonable. What about the other 99 out of 100 cases where that isn't the right decision?

I don't think his examples show that that's the magic formula. Chelsea is a prime example for a club changing the manager often but still winning big titles. You need a structure that makes the right calls, be it sacking or keeping a manager.

 

[romufc]

Ah yes, when things go well it's obviously because of the "structure". Structure that we as fans know next to nothing about.

So Arsenal only recently learned the magic formula is "you don't sack the manager". That seems reasonable. What about the other 99 out of 100 cases where that isn't the right decision?

Klopp is not an example. There's quite a bit between nothing and winning the league. He got them playing good football and results came afterwards, in Europe and then domestically as well. Not at all comparable to our situation.

Did I say it was the magic formula? I tell you what I can guarantee you, we sack Ten Hag for Poch, Di Zerbi or Tuchel, we will be here again. They are not good enough to win us the league.

Klopp is an example because even when Klopp had won the league and had his team, when he had a injury crisis in defence, he struggled to play the same style and struggled to get top 4.

Ofcourse you dont think the structure is the issue because the manager is as high as you would look.

We have had Rangnick come in and say, this club needs open heart surgery and started saying things the club didnt like so sacked him.

Our players do nothing and get paid the most, we pay the highest transfer fees with least to show for it. Again, I guess you blame that on the manager.

Forget all of that, lets even look beyond that, look at the state of Carrington, Old Trafford, you have to provide the best conditions to achieve results.

You probably think that we cant upgrade our facilities because Ten Hag spent all the money on transfers?

 

[essao]

We have the most patient fanbase of all big clubs by far. You're just saying it's a "rebuild" to excuse the horrible results. We should not be looking as bad on the pitch as we are, "rebuild" or not. If we had Poch we would never know if he'd not win anything for 5 years because he would be sacked after a season or two if it was going that badly. That's how football works. You cannot possibly tell me "if we get the right signings and have few injuries we will try to fight for 4th" was the 3 year plan when Ten Hag arrived.

I prefer to call it delusion,not patience.Our MU fan base thinks that a manager is more important than the club.They look at Real Madrid fans waving white handkerchiefs when the team underperforms and label that as not being 'classy'. That is why 'unclassy' Real Madrid are going after their 16th ECL trophy next season while 'classy' MU,a club of almost the same stature financially, is targetting to get 4th in the league. 'Supporting the manager',not the team, is seen as a badge of honor-never mind how crappy the manager is.

At MU,the 'poor' manager is almost viewed as a down-trodden volunteer worker by fans-not a well-remunerated employee whose remit is not to offer excuses but to improve the team and deliver results.Unless they are dimwits,the manager applies for the job knowing very well how the club is structured so they ought to get on with things the way they find them. Obviously signing the job offer means they are happy with the existing structure.Actually Ten Hag was very contented with the structure at MU that gave him a lot of control when it came to transfers. So all this crying about 'structure' has no basis when it comes to discussing his experiences at the club. And of course with great control comes great responsibility and scrutiny. It is a results-oriented business and they should be sacked when they turn out to be substandard.

And while their performance elsewhere is relevant,we should not put too much stock in it. Don Carlo was poor at Everton but he is now the king of Europe. That is why I cringe when I read that there are no suitable replacements for ETH. People keep saying that manager X is not suitable because he did or did not do this in his previous club.The problem is that we are comparing what they may or may not do in Manchester United with what Ten Hag has done. Right now every manager we have been linked with is an upgrade on Ten Hag. Of course if they turn out to be crap they need to be sacked to avoid taking the club backwards. Booting non-performers is just business,nothing personal. Nobody is indispensable,and retaining/rewarding failures is going backwards. Oh,and Fergie was a one-off.The era of 20-year managerial reigns is no more. We are in the era of marginal gains-from one manager to the next provided that the overall performance and growth trajectory is upwards.

 

[Red Comet]

They all let those managers build their style, granted pep done it quicker than the rest.

So can you tell us what is ETH's style?

Again, its funny people actually think that the manager decides on the fee. Yes Antony was a big fee, but the club never learn from Pogba, Maguire, Fred, Di Maria, Lukaku and many other big name signings.

Most people are not saying that ETH decides the fee. If so, no one here will be talking about how disastrous Matt Judge was in his role.

At the same time, it astounds me that people like you believe that ETH has entirely no input or knowledge about the fee. It's as if ETH says "I need Anthony", and next moment viola! the club comes back to ETH "Good news! We have signed Anthony just like you wanted! Btw he costed almost our entire transfer budget and you will not be getting the 5 other players you need". This is not how any organisations that has to work within a budget, never mind football clubs, work.

Most clubs that win have a very good structure above the manager.

Most clubs that win also have fired and hired the right manager.

 

[Rista]

Did I say it was the magic formula? I tell you what I can guarantee you, we sack Ten Hag for Poch, Di Zerbi or Tuchel, we will be here again. They are not good enough to win us the league.

Klopp is an example because even when Klopp had won the league and had his team, when he had a injury crisis in defence, he struggled to play the same style and struggled to get top 4.

Ofcourse you dont think the structure is the issue because the manager is as high as you would look.

We have had Rangnick come in and say, this club needs open heart surgery and started saying things the club didnt like so sacked him.

Our players do nothing and get paid the most, we pay the highest transfer fees with least to show for it. Again, I guess you blame that on the manager.

Forget all of that, lets even look beyond that, look at the state of Carrington, Old Trafford, you have to provide the best conditions to achieve results.

You probably think that we cant upgrade our facilities because Ten Hag spent all the money on transfers?

You're addressing points that nobody argued. I think the manager should be sacked so that means I don't think anybody above him is part of the problem, what kind of reasoning is that? It doesn't have to be all manager's fault.

Yes, you did say it's a magic formula. How could you possibly "guarantee" anything? You're just saying it because you're seeing patterns and think they predict the future. The whole argument about the structure is irrelevant when we are doing exactly that, overhauling the executive positions from top to bottom.

 

[romufc]

You're addressing points that nobody argued. I think the manager should be sacked so that means I don't think anybody above him is part of the problem, what kind of reasoning is that? It doesn't have to be all manager's fault.

Yes, you did say it's a magic formula. How could you possibly "guarantee" anything? You're just saying it because you're seeing patterns and think they predict the future. The whole argument about the structure is irrelevant when we are doing exactly that, overhauling the executive positions from top to bottom.

I wonder why when we sold a portion of the club, the owners decided to change the structure, almost as if they know having football people running football operations and being successful has a correlation.

 

[Rista]

I wonder why when we sold a portion of the club, the owners decided to change the structure, almost as if they know having football people running football operations and being successful has a correlation.

Who said it doesn't? Are you that blinded by wanting to keep Ten Hag that you just ignore what others are saying?