Indeed but human error also creeps in as a ref decides which part of the players bodies the lines are placed on.
VAR and Refs | General Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Indeed but human error also creeps in as a ref decides which part of the players bodies the lines are placed on.
You’re a conspiracist and so on .
The penalty today was given on-field by the assistant ref. It has always been true with PGMOL VAR is that the threshold for clear and obvious error is very high. It encourages players to avidly appeal to officials because they know that so many on-field decisions will be upheld by VAR.
A recent example of this happening against City would be at Arsenal last season, when Nketiah won a penalty that probably wouldn’t have been checked by VAR, but they upheld the on-field call. We’ve also conceded 2 penalties in stoppage time this season - leading to 4 dropped points - which surely would not have been awarded if there is a conspiracy?
Instances like the Kovacic one (worth noting that City still went on to lose the game) that frequently land in the “will not be overturned” bucket are even more frustrating when there are clear and obvious errors with second yellows like Boly’s the other day that VAR can’t touch.
Then there are the inexplicable ones like the Odegaard handball, which was 100% a penalty - but he plays for Arsenal, not City.
I tend to agree with this. It’s absurd really.
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I'm old enough to remember Rashford's stepover being deemed not to have interfered with play before Bruno's equaliser in the Manchester derby last January. Easiest thing in the world would have been to uphold the on-field decision. The ref who overturned that decision (Michael Oliver) was the same one who denied Man Utd the handball penalty against Spurs.
Both penalties against you this season were absolutely nailed on though. Even a corrupt ref would have had to give them.
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Any chance of City getting charged/criticised for surrounding the ref? Given the "clear and obvious" bias, if the on field ref doesn't give that, very good chance VAR also doesn't too.
I managed to watch a decent chunk of the prem this week, and you could easily count over 20 examples of players protesting more violently, more aggressively and closer to referees than Dalot did, and exactly 0 of them received a yellow card, much less 2.
Personally I've no big problem with the Romero non-handball, because I think if you asked every ref today if that's a pen they say yes, and that they screwed up (except of course Gallagher, because he's whatever the f*ck he is). Similar on offsides - personally I think the offside rule needs revisiting (come on Arsene!) because the way technology enforces it is at odds with the actual purpose of the rule.
But I do hate the 'exceptional' decisions, because it feels like they so often happen to us. We have Rooney and Scholes suspensions from a friendly that went into the league. Only time that's happened. You've got Rooney suspended for cursing, only time that's happened. You've got the entirely made up Ander Herrera rule, which was used exactly once. The new intepretation of handball on Lindelof which was so bad, it had to be changed before the next week. More recently, Casemiro's first red last season was and remains an absolute farce given the fact it was only him, and only one angle they chose to look at, and that again he seems the only person to be held to that rule (there are shots of at least half a dozen proper throat grabs since then, of which, again, exactly 0 have resulted in freeze-frame VAR decisions).
I think I've said on this thread before, but now with new sporting control could be time to reconsider: we need a refereeing strategy. Whether that's the Klopp/Fergie approach of just complaining so loudly to everyone that shapes narrative or the City approach of being so *ahem* nice as to try and charm refs. We need to somehow get over this media sh*tstorm we're in where it's back-page news if it helps us but not a peep when it hurts us. Someone smarter than me must be able to come up with a PR strategy.
Personally I've no big problem with the Romero non-handball, because I think if you asked every ref today if that's a pen they say yes, and that they screwed up (except of course Gallagher, because he's whatever the f*ck he is). Similar on offsides - personally I think the offside rule needs revisiting (come on Arsene!) because the way technology enforces it is at odds with the actual purpose of the rule.
But I do hate the 'exceptional' decisions, because it feels like they so often happen to us. We have Rooney and Scholes suspensions from a friendly that went into the league. Only time that's happened. You've got Rooney suspended for cursing, only time that's happened. You've got the entirely made up Ander Herrera rule, which was used exactly once. The new intepretation of handball on Lindelof which was so bad, it had to be changed before the next week. More recently, Casemiro's first red last season was and remains an absolute farce given the fact it was only him, and only one angle they chose to look at, and that again he seems the only person to be held to that rule (there are shots of at least half a dozen proper throat grabs since then, of which, again, exactly 0 have resulted in freeze-frame VAR decisions).
I think I've said on this thread before, but now with new sporting control could be time to reconsider: we need a refereeing strategy. Whether that's the Klopp/Fergie approach of just complaining so loudly to everyone that shapes narrative or the City approach of being so *ahem* nice as to try and charm refs. We need to somehow get over this media sh*tstorm we're in where it's back-page news if it helps us but not a peep when it hurts us. Someone smarter than me must be able to come up with a PR strategy.
Do you think those kind of rules apply to other teams? Yes, we have some player that could be really irritating when they are in that mood but what happened to Dalot and our players don't usually happen to other teams. How many times have we seen players or managers at Arsenal, Liverpool and ManCity complain, shout and so on and got red carded? It is ridiculous. Have you seen any imaginary penalty like ManCity got against us? Every game there is holding and pushing and have you seen any referee point to the spot for that? No. There are so many decisions that are wierd and strange. Little and big decisions.
It is like rules that apply to us isn't same when it comes to other teams. In media there is silence about that apart from some former referee who pretty much says that their mates are never wrong. Our club should have got out with official statement about this earlier this season.
The one that sticks out in my mind was the game v Leicester at OT when they won the league. 1-1 and one of our players get their shirt pulled but it’s not just a pull and let go, he was pulled back from outside the all the way deep into the area and it was given as a free outside. Thats a pen since first contact isn’t deemed over until they let go but it was never, and has never, been brought up. We finished 5th in GD to City that year and Pep avoided EL football
They've been charged for that three times in the last year already.
Modern Day Penalty according to Gallagher
I don't understand the controversy about the penalty we got. He literally dived in front of Ake's shot with his arms up, it's better than many of the saves Ederson makes for us every week.
I agree, he's making his body bigger there in what can be construed as an unnatural way. Nothing wrong with giving a pen for it.
You're used to getting every decision both on and off the pitch given in your favor so the concept of inconsistency is likely alien to you. So bear with me if this gets too complicated.
Something that was considered "too close to the defender" a couple of months ago is today considered a "modern day penalty".
United were incorrectly denied a penalty in August, therefore people are complaining about every single correctly given penalty four months later. It has nothing to do with what actually happened in your game.
Can anyone find the clip from the spurs utd game. It has to be in here.
No one is saying its not a penalty. It is. We didn't get a more obvious one when it was 0 0 at spurs at the start of the season in a game we went on to lose.
2 posts up.
See it now. feck he's a prick. He's simply not impartial when it comes to united.
You said the Garnacho one was a penalty right? So we're all in agreement the ref got that wrong therefor we're all in agreement all 3 were penos and the one yesterday was correct?
While the handball rule is a mess, are we criticising refs for getting decisions right?
I'm not sure what the issue is with last nights peno, other than the ref got the Garnacho one wrong so should also have gotten last nights one wrong, cause thats a silly argument.
What did people expect from him looking at previous statements? That a referee didn't do his/hers job? They are holding each others back. Whatever they do is correct in their eyes.
We have seen that so many time when it comes to us. They invent some rule and go with it trying to use some clever words. Same rule that don't apply to other teams or games. Unless our club don't say anything this will keep going. I have lost all hope that we will see any transparency with cams and mic on referees so we know what actually is happening. Our club needs to come out and demand explanation.
I think you are missing the point.
While you keep getting those kind of decisions for you, we are getting them against us. While referees find some ghost penalty for you against us at Old Trafford in that sensitive time, they don't see any pushing, holding and wrestling in any other game since then. Or before that. While we get players sent off for dissent, other teams can do whatever they want in same and different game without anything given. And so the story goes with lot of situations.
I reckon we will start to speak up about the refs bad decisions once the new owners are in control. The Glazers have probably told all concerned to keep quiet to avoid fines for the club and staff.
But that swings and roudabouts no? 3 years ago is was LiVARpool, now they're getting absolutely humped by decisions this season. (2 of the absolute worst I've ever seen).
I can point to tons of decisions against City in the last few years particularly involving Liverpool or Spurs, but this year we are absolutely getting the rub of the green. Thats football. You guys are having nothing go your way but that kinda happens when the chips are down but a couple of seasons ago you had the most penalties in the league.
In the 19/20 you guys got 14 peno's in a league season, in 18/19 you got 12 despite finishing 6th vs Cities 4 in a season we got 98 point and won the league and we were actually playing most the game in oppo box.
We were the ones getting nothing and you guys got 26 penos in 2 seasons. Its football and reffing incompetence but it goes in swings and roundabouts. City have never had 12 penalties in a PL season.
Was it corruption in Uniteds favour then like some (not all here) are implying?
Its not the penalty being given that annoyed me, it was the fact that City get so many of these penalty go their way that other teams probably wouldnt have gotton like the pen they got against Sheff Utd when the ball hit the arm of a defender who was only a couple if CM away.
The pen City got at Old Trafford when Rodri threw himself to the floor after feeling a bit contact was ridiculous to award if Gabriel throwing Hojlund to the ground at the Emirates as he was looking to shoot wasnt a penalty and in that same derby a City defender dragged back Hojlund as he was through one on one with Ederson to denyva clear goal scoring oppurtunity and nothing was given.
We were definitely getting too many penalties, though the only one that really stood out was Bruno v Villa I think, when he tried a pirouette and actually initiated the contact. But what was crazy about that situation was Klopp makes a big deal at a press conference and the pens instantly dry up. We went from like 12 to 3 or something season on season.
We got a record 14 penalties in 19/20 while City got 11 and Liverpool got 5 then in 20/21 we got 11 while City got 9 and Liverpool got 6
In the following seasons we got:-
21/22 Man Utd 5 - Man City 9 - Liverpool 8
22/23 Man Utd 3 - Man City 10 - Liverpool 4
23/24 Man Utd 3 - Man City 5 -Liverpool 4
Bit weird debate. Number of penalties is irrelevant in itself.
And in 18/19 you got 12 to Cities 4 and Liverpools 7.
So in 5.5 seaasosn.
United 48
City 48
Liverpool 34.
Are you really sure you're hard done by given two of those teams play attacking football are among the best teams in Europe and constantly have the ball in the other teams box whilst you had Jose, Ole and the current regime football. But the other teams get gifts and you are hard done by? Cause that suggest something very different to me.
To put it in persctive over that period Liverpool have had 3454 shots, City 3633, United 2970. I know shots don't directly relate to penalties but its shows roughly which team has spent far less attacking and bossing games
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Your team should not even be in the league to begin with for financial cheating.
Also, rules wise: Garnacho against Tottenham is a definitive pen. Odegaard against Liverpool is a pen. The one City got against Everton isn't.
- deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball;
- touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised; o
We'll be rightly punished if we're guilty of the charges, still doesn't make any of the shit in this thread remotely credible being honest does it.
Since start of 18/19
City 48 pens for 25 against in PL
Liverpool 36 for 16 against
United 48 for 24 against
Now given 2 of those teams competed at the top end of Europe and dominated the league and yet have had less go their way than the worst United in living memory I'd say we all know who has had the run of the green decision wise.
We can do red cards too if you like? I suspect that will shit on the referees against United myth too though.
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They won't bring it up but would love to see Gallagher's rebuttal if the network were to do a segment on these penalties were shown along with his comments and compared to the United/Spurs no pen and his comments supporting the decision. Have him explain and not be permitted to just "oh, well... uh..."
How does the new handball rule work?
A free kick or penalty will be awarded if:
- the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacker's hand or arm.
- a player wins ball possession after it comes off their hand or arm and then scores, or creates a goalscoring chance.
- the ball touches a player's hand/arm which has made their silhouette unnaturally bigger.
- the ball touches a player's hand/arm when it's raised above their shoulder.
Weird how they made the ref stop play and then it took another minute before the ref actually went to the monitor. Surely if they're telling him to stop play they feel confident that they're recommending an on-field review?
Even in making the correct decisions they look like morons.
Even in making the correct decisions they look like morons.
That's the IFAB version of the rule, the Premier League version is different
Is that why they have to lobby IFAB to change the rules for them?
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...by-ifab-to-change-controversial-handball-laws
Of course they follow IFAB rules. They literally and correctly I might add asked Ifab to review this very rule and IFAB did nothing, though the PL did ask refs to not be so strict in applying it. The rule still stands.
https://www.thefa.com/football-rule.../football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
Don't be daft.
HANDLING THE BALL
For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence.
It is an offence if a player:
- deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
- touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
- scores in the opponents' goal:
- directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
- immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental
The laws for domestic competitions are set by the country's FA not IFAB.
Under the Premier League handball rules the ball coming of another body part before hitting the arm and proximity between the kicker and the handler are taken in to acount but under IFAB rules neither of those are taken in to account hence why you seen pens given in the Champions League that would never be given in the Premier League.