You probably can't be arsed but it would be interesting to compare the end game for Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho as well...
Ole when sacked vs Ten Hag currently
- Thread starter Scandi Red
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
You probably can't be arsed but it would be interesting to compare the end game for Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho as well...
Owners (Step 1)
DOF (Step 2)
Manager (Step 3)
Sort out Steps 1 and 2 before you concern yourself too much with the guy in the dugout.
Anyone thinking changing the manager is the quick fix for everything should probably look for a new hobby to follow.
DOF (Step 2)
Manager (Step 3)
Sort out Steps 1 and 2 before you concern yourself too much with the guy in the dugout.
Anyone thinking changing the manager is the quick fix for everything should probably look for a new hobby to follow.
At Madrid ,Bayern, Barcelona he would be gone. Bayern who are usually seen as a blue print for a well run club in this forum sacked Naglesman when he was 2nd or third I don't remember what position he was. Standards have fallen for both managers and players. Just because sticking with Arteta worked for Arsenal doesn't mean it would for us.
Other clubs aren’t “well run” simply because they sack under performing managers. They are well run so set managers up to succeed, when They replace the managers the clubs don’t need complete squad overhauls either.
Well run clubs don’t need amazing managers to bring success.
United is a poorly run club that sacks managers who fail in a poorly run club because we need our managers to be absolutely amazing to compensate for the way the club is run.
It will take you a while but you will get there. We are in relegation form. While we likely won't get relegated, we likely will finish in the bottom half of the table.
There is nothing to suggest that it has worked for Arsenal. Arteta is in his fifth season, has spent more than any other club except Man United, and has still to win the first trophy.
This is very true. Sad reality of the caf these days.
What did Ole win in his four or whatever years here?
The key difference to my mind is that Ole's collapse came after he had already been in charge for several seasons and the expectation was that we were at the point where we would be pushing on for a title challenge. That collapse coming at the point where Ole's work over the previous several seasons should have been coming to its culmination was particularly damning.
Whereas in ETH's case there wasn't any real expectation that we'd challenge for the title this season, nor a sense that we were that far along the team building process. So early season struggles don't come with quite the same damning sense that we've been building to nothing. Add the injury problems and off-field issues surrounding the club and I think you'll see ETH afforded a greater deal of leniency than Ole received when he was several seasons into his time here. But there's a limit, and ETH badly needs to start getting results.
Whereas in ETH's case there wasn't any real expectation that we'd challenge for the title this season, nor a sense that we were that far along the team building process. So early season struggles don't come with quite the same damning sense that we've been building to nothing. Add the injury problems and off-field issues surrounding the club and I think you'll see ETH afforded a greater deal of leniency than Ole received when he was several seasons into his time here. But there's a limit, and ETH badly needs to start getting results.
You're not a revolutionary here. Nor am I.
I am willing to make a very healthy bet if you want that we won't be in the bottom half of the table under Ten Hag, should he get until Christmas at least.
Apparently the FA cup no longer counts as a trophy
I really don't think League Cup is so important that it drastically changes the comparison between the two of them. It's a second rate trophy that very few PL teams take seriously, and we only faced a real quality opposition in the final, while playing a very strong team ourselves in almost all rounds.
We were a penalty away from winning Europa League under Ole but even if we had, it would not have completely changed by perception of his time here (it would have still been somewhat OK, rather underwhelming, ultimately not good enough).
Trophies are obviously important but there are degrees of importance to each of them (League Cup being at the very bottom) and the general direction / weekly performances are still more important than one off trophy win. I think we had two really solid seasons under Ole and unmitigated disaster in the end.
Ooops, my mistake.
Saying that, I still think that a manager of a top-tier club who has been backed is successful only if they win the league or the UCL. FA and Europa are good trophies, but not very good. League Cup and the conference league, who cares.
It is not even that. Fa Cup and Europa League are second rate trophies. The League Cup and Conference League are as third-tier as they can be.
In 2019/20, we had 9 points from 7 games and 16 points from 12 games. Both worse than 21/22 when Ole was sacked. The only reason for his departure wasn't the points tally in that season itself. It was the lack of progress over the years and humiliating performances against our rivals in his 3rd full season in charge. Some comparisons aren't so straightforward.
So, nothing then. No trophies at Manchester United for 4 years - inexcusable.
I care. I want my club to win trophies. We are owned by the Glazers. I’ll take all the trophies and celebrating we can get under the parasites. PL and CL aren’t happening anytime soon and a trophy is better than feck all.
You can't really compare the two, Erik got backed, Ole didn't (at least not to this extend). And that's not a dig at ETH (even though tactically he's been exposed several times already), that's just me still thinking we need to give more time for managers instead of trying same thing over and over again.
As I said at the time when Ole was in charge we have a long way to fall yet. The players have lost the plot. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us in the worse position than Ole after those games. There are still some fans thinking we will suddenly turn it around when performances on the pitch show otherwise. The only good performance this season was League Cup game against a second string Palace side.
Not all trophies are created equal. I would have definitely swapped the League Cup with a 7-0 victory over Liverpool. I wouldn’t swap an EPL or an UCL with anything. I do not remember the years, neither the games when we won this trophy under Fergie. It is a trophy that most clubs play kids and fringe players until at least semis.
We are owned by Glazers but we are spending more money than City. We should be able to play somehow decent football and challenge occasionally for the big trophies.
No disagreements from me. I just wanted to have a points tally comparison.
Truth be told, we don't know how impatient the club is. If this had been Ten Hag's first season then I don't think that people would talk about sacking him. He's had two summer transfer windows now. Is it from the 3rd that we start to become impatient? It's hard to tell. And that's before mentioning the dressing room.
Yup
Although to be honest if we had the owners with a proper DOF we’d have a strong team
Stadium and training facilities still shite but money for transfers has never been an issue for awhile
I don't see it, this is a dressing room with a high percentage of players who breath for this manager.
We have certain common denominators who have seen out many a manager though and fail to pull up trees on the pitch.. He does well at sticking his beak into school dinner subjects and the like though.
Ole wasn't good enough. Rangnick being worse and ETH possibly being just as bad doesn't change that.
Ole was backed. He spent 461 million euros in transfers. Which I believe was one of the highest, if not the highest, any manager spent during that spell.
Indeed. Basically if you play a strong team in each round, and don't have to face any quality opposition + you are drawn at home in every single round, it doesn't scream 'amazing achievement' to me at all.
We beat weakened Gerrard's Villa at Old Trafford, Championship side Burnley also at Old Trafford and League One team Charlton also at Old Trafford before playing Nottingham in the semis - who also played a weakened team because they were focused on relegation fight. Newcastle in the final was our first real challenge.
I don't really get why winning EFL Cup under these circumstances elevates Ten Hag so far above Ole and vindicates other failures.
For context, our cup runs in full seasons under Ole:
2019-20
EFL Cup: beat Rochdale at home on pens, beat Chelsea 2-1 at Stamford, beat Colchester 3-0 at home before losing to City in semis (lost 3-1 at home, beat them 1-0 away)
FA Cup: beat Wolves, Tranmere, Derby and Norwich before semifinal exit to Chelsea (3-1 loss)
Europa League: knocked out in semifinals by Sevilla, having beaten Brugge, LASK and Copenhagen in previous rounds
2020-21
EFL Cup: beat Luton 3-0 away, Brighton 3-0 away, Everton 2-0 away and losing to City 2-0 at home in the semifinal
FA Cup: beat Watford 1-0 at home, Liverpool 3-2 at home, West Ham 1-0 at home before losing 3-1 to Leicester in the quarters
CL: dropped out of the group stage, beating PSG 2-1 in Paris and Leipzig 5-0 at home before losing to Istanbul and then losing to Paris and Leipzig in our final two games
Europa League: got to Europa League final beating Milan 2-1, Granada 4-0 and Roma 8-5 on aggregate before losing the final to Villarreal on penalties.
In each of these cup runs we were eventually eliminated by a team that was a close match to us quality wise which makes me think if he had only been presented with an equally favorable draw to the one we had last season, instead of bumping into City twice in semifinals of EFL Cup, we would have probably won at least that damn precious EFL Cup.
Same as Ole (was his team). Games are a squad game these days. Our turnover is ridiculously low which means that managers have to rely heavily on players he hasn't brought in. Also bad habits tend to be learnt quite easily and players know that they can easily push the manager out
Expectations of the reality of United’s status in the game also seem a bit skewed when I see posts like this.
We finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 6th, 5th, 4th, 7th since we won the league. We have not got to the business end of the CL in over a decade, we often aren't even in it. Bayern have to win their league, it's a piss take if they don't, Real or Barca have won the last 16 of 18 La Ligas. We have been nowhere near winning ours. Readjust your expectation, either you let ETH (or any other manager) build something with the handicaps that exists in the owners and transfer team, or just shout about how standards have fallen, sack managers after every bad run and prepare for nothing to change.
There is a degree of external pressure that Manchester United carries. Be it our incredibly loud, wide and toxic social media fanbase, ex-players in media or clowns like Piers Morgan with an agenda to get Ten Hag sacked just so he can say Ronaldo was right.
Point being, no manager has survived a full season where we didn't get to the CL in the subsequent year (LVG's first year was an exception). So if results keep spiraling and the board loses confidence that we can't get CL, then Ten Hag goes sooner rather than later. But even if we remain mid-table but remain 6-8 points from top 4 (or top 5?), then don't think he'll be sacked. Other factors like big game performances (margin of defeats sadly), CL group exit potentially can have an impact too.
Skipped the first two since they got sacked near at the end of the season:
Mourinho after 7 games:
- 10 points
- Goal difference: -2 (10/12)
- League position: 10
- Points behind top four: 5
Mourinho when sacked (Round 17):
- 26 points
- Goal difference: 0 (29/29)
- League position: 6
- Points behind top four: 11
Well he did not have the luck of playing lower division / bottom half PL teams fielding their B teams until the final in any of these competitions, which is basically the difference between him and ETH. If we had got City in the semifinals like Ole did, there's no way in hell we are getting past them last year.
We had quite decent cup runs under Ole actually, just were not lucky enough in our draws to not have to play a good team until the final.
the quality is there maybe not to the extent of winning the CL/EPL but certainly to beat the likes of Palace and co. Tactics and training is important but players should know not to commit basic mistakes
Sorry I must have missed us winning the PL or CL recently. So I’ll happily take the LC over four years of nothing. Caring about the 7-0 over a trophy is just so odd
Four years of bad luck. Incredible when you think about it.
It depends on how you conceptualise quality. Professionalism, resilience, and intelligence are all central qualities that are required of players who wear the shirt. Are you telling me that these players are sufficiently grounded in these qualities? I would beg to differ, if so! Technically, the squad of players isn't good enough, either, and certainly not good enough to compromise on its aforementioned shortcomings.
I think your dislike for Ole is clouding your judgment here. He never spent 4 seasons here, he had two full seasons, he came in the middle of 18-19 and was then fired very early in 21-22.
He joined in the middle of 2018-19 season, we were already out of EFL Cup by that time so he couldn't have possibly won that.
The next two seasons were his only two full ones and I just listed all the teams he had been eliminated by above.
It's not even bad luck on Ole's side, you are usually expected to draw good teams at some point in pretty much any competition. ETH was just extremely lucky not to, and he's now being glorified by his devoted fan base for delivering that amazing trophy. It's silly.
It obviously wasn't just results that got Old sacked. He had no control over the squad and it sounded like a free for all. People above him, combined with the results, must have looked on a thought this guy isn't the future.
Ronaldo, mostly. The plan went out the window to accommodate the GOAT and along with it went discipline and any semblance of a team ethic.
No.
Fixed.
You're forgetting almost the entirety of 2019. There was a period after the PSG win where our record was 14 wins, 11 draws and 13 losses. Thats a 38 game period where we essentially picked up 53 points in all comps. Our fans have the worst memories. It didn't improve much either, as in the next 10 games, we won 4 and lost 5. That's almost an entire year:
Played 48, won 18, drawn 12, lost 18. That's abysmal.