Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread

Buxton said:
Ermmm everything ?
you think Saka’s agent isn’t aware what players in the same division of a lesser ability are on?
that would be the opening gambit in any contract negotiation.
It’s like when shaktar told us if Grealish and Antony are worth 100m then we want the same for Mudryk. They even name dropped Antony and said their player is better (hasn’t worked out like that so far) .
You really think there’s no connection ? Wow.
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The connection is blindingly obvious. Citing comps is literally the starting point of virtually every financial negotiation.

The last few pages of this thread are full of certain posters pretending not to see logical links to contextual info. I'm not sure why. The reason I like RedCafe is because there is actual debate, but it's all going a little RAWK recently.
 
Daydreamer said:
The connection is blindingly obvious. Citing comps is literally the starting point of virtually every financial negotiation.

The last few pages of this thread are full of certain posters pretending not to see logical links to contextual info. I'm not sure why. The reason I like RedCafe is because there is actual debate, but it's all going a little RAWK recently.
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ManUtd always had higher wage bill than Arsenal, winning PL/CL or not. I mean wage bills are usually topped by bigger clubs in any list. So what's so surprising that player in Arsenal is paid less than ManUtd player who they thought was very good player based on his performance for Dortmund.

And you and other folks are talking about logic, it's all weird.
 
roonster09 said:
ManUtd always had higher wage bill than Arsenal, winning PL/CL or not. I mean wage bills are usually topped by bigger clubs in any list. So what's so surprising that player in Arsenal is paid less than ManUtd player who they thought was very good player based on his performance for Dortmund.

And you and other folks are talking about logic, it's all weird.
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Who said it's surprising that Saka's paid less?

I said it obvious why Buxton mentioned Sancho when discussing Saka's new contract as the connection is clear.
 
Daydreamer said:
Who said it's surprising that Saka's paid less?

I said it obvious why Buxton mentioned Sancho when discussing Saka's new contract as the connection is clear.
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And I said why it's obvious why Sancho is paid more.

Did Sancho say anything about Arsenal? I have seen so many Arse fans so pissy about him for some reason, in multiple threads. Randomly bringing his name in random threads.
 
roonster09 said:
And I said why it's obvious why Sancho is paid more.
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Who are you arguing with?
roonster09 said:
Did Sancho say anything about Arsenal? I have seen so many Arse fans so pissy about him for some reason, in multiple threads. Randomly bringing his name in random threads.
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Sancho is a young, highly rated, England international playing at a top PL team - just like Saka. They are comparable. When Saka's agent negotiates a new contract, he will point to comparable players to try and make sure he gets his client compensated at market rates. This occurs in literally every contract negotiation.

Talking about Sancho in this context is neither "pissy", nor "random". It's a perfectly normal thing to do. The only odd thing here is the idea that Sancho cannot be mentioned for some reason.
 
Buxton said:
Ermmm everything ?
you think Saka’s agent isn’t aware what players in the same division of a lesser ability are on?
that would be the opening gambit in any contract negotiation.
It’s like when shaktar told us if Grealish and Antony are worth 100m then we want the same for Mudryk. They even name dropped Antony and said their player is better (hasn’t worked out like that so far) .
You really think there’s no connection ? Wow.
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We all know United have been mismanaged by the Glazers and Ed Woodward in recent times. Thank God one has left already and the others shortly following. Work has already began to put right the multitude of mistakes they have made.

If that’s the yardstick you wish to use to measure Arsenal crack on but it’s as skewed as they come.

Wow indeed.
 
TheReligion said:
We all know United have been mismanaged by the Glazers and Ed Woodward in recent times. Thank God one has left already and the others shortly following. Work has already began to put right the multitude of mistakes they have made.

If that’s the yardstick you wish to use to measure Arsenal crack on but it’s as skewed as they come.

Wow indeed.
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Too much sand tbh, too many pissy Arse fans for some odd reason, maybe Twitter bunch who follows some random accounts and some rivalry that we are not aware of.
 
GoonerBear said:
I suppose it's the agents jobs to look at their peers and see what the going rate is and use that as part of a yardstick of what others at a similar age, position and nationality are on.

Although Sancho's wage is partly drive with the premium price tag, whereas as someone like Foden coming through the Academy is probably a better comparison.
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Exactly. Or use Rashford who is much more comparable for the reasons you suggest.

That said it doesn’t suit @Buxton to do that or his narrative. Almost as convenient as making him 27 as opposed to 25 to try and suggest United have an old team.

All the constant dick measuring is tiresome.
 
roonster09 said:
The person i replied to?

Big club pays big money, small clubs pay small wages. Whats the big deal in that. "OMG look at us paying less wages than Sancho" :lol:
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You're literally having an argument with yourself, mate. I wasn't saying that, as far as I can see, no one was saying that.

But if you want to invent viewpoints to stick a laughing emoji at the end of, go for it.
 
Daydreamer said:
You're literally having an argument with yourself, mate. I wasn't saying that, as far as I can see, no one was saying that.

But if you want to invent viewpoints to stick a laughing emoji at the end of, go for it.
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I didn't say you said that, I said Arse fans are pissy about Sancho for some weird reason and brings his name in random threads, out of nowhere "Sancho is paid 350K" nonsense.
 
roonster09 said:
And I said why it's obvious why Sancho is paid more.

Did Sancho say anything about Arsenal? I have seen so many Arse fans so pissy about him for some reason, in multiple threads. Randomly bringing his name in random threads.
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Not gonna lie, to me it seems like a fairly obvious comparison when the topic is Saka’s contract extension. Pretty sure Sancho isn’t the only one either. Foden is supposedly on £225k, Grealish £300k, Sterling £325k. I know the experience and context varies between all of these players but Saka is currently out performing all of these players, it would be a pretty good deal for Arsenal if he agrees to £200-250k considering what other clubs are paying their players in similar positions.
 
WeePat said:
Not gonna lie, to me it seems like a fairly obvious comparison when the topic is Saka’s contract extension. Pretty sure Sancho isn’t the only one either. Foden is supposedly on £225k, Grealish £300k, Sterling £325k. I know the experience and context varies between all of these players but Saka is currently out performing all of these players, it would be a pretty good deal for Arsenal if he agrees to £200-250k considering what other clubs are paying their players in similar positions.
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It's not only on this instance, i have seen in multiple threads now and by Arsenal fans.

Also Saka with same form would be getting better contract at bigger clubs, that's true statement too. It's what it is, total wage bill will always be dominated by bigger clubs and clubs with big revenue.
 
roonster09 said:
It's not only on this instance, i have seen in multiple threads now and by Arsenal fans.

Also Saka with same form would be getting better contract at bigger clubs, that's true statement too. It's what it is, total wage bill will always be dominated by bigger clubs and clubs with big revenue.
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You’re not wrong re; wage bill. I’m just saying, at least in this specific scenario bringing Sancho into the discussion isn’t unreasonable when they’re discussing Saka’s contract.
 
Just a reminder that the whole discussion started with the silly notion that its crazy to pay Saka 200k a week. An attempt at wumming that didnt go to plan I would say.
 
TheReligion said:
You’re just as bad yourself tbh
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Apologies, I’d much rather chat football than silly back and forths that waste time and achieve nothing.
let’s get back to the football.
Are Arsenal on their way to world domination? Discuss.

Only joking
 
Tomiyasu had surgery on his knee and is out for the season and maybe start of the next. He's been so unlucky with injuries... If we can't keep Tierney and he can't stay fit we're going to have to find 2 good fullbacks in the summer.
 
Buxton said:
Apologies, I’d much rather chat football than silly back and forths that waste time and achieve nothing.
let’s get back to the football.
Are Arsenal on their way to world domination? Discuss.

Only joking
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I think, and hope, you win the league this season.

Next will be very interesting as I think a number of teams will be in the mix and it should be very competitive. Arsenal will have CL football to navigate so recruitment in the summer will be pivotal to being able to compete on both fronts.

In terms of wages and contracts I think an interesting comparison is to that of Liverpool. If Arsenal want to stay true to their model they might have to accept losing out on some players or letting others go. This is what happened with Wijnaldum and Mane.

Liverpool also had to eventually decide to give Salah over 300k per week and make sacrifices elsewhere within the squad. This pinch point will come to Arsenal at some point in the future and it’s not always easy to get right and navigate, as shown by Klopp and the results of this season.

I’m not sure we will see any team dominating in the future which can only be good for the league. I wonder what the odds would be on the next few PL winners all being different clubs…
 
awop said:
Tomiyasu had surgery on his knee and is out for the season and maybe start of the next. He's been so unlucky with injuries... If we can't keep Tierney and he can't stay fit we're going to have to find 2 good fullbacks in the summer.
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He's a big loss. He can cover the entire back line. Reuell Walters may well make his debut this season.
 
Klopper76 said:
Regardless of what happens this season, it'll be interesting to see if this is a one off season where a lot goes Arsenal's way or if it's the start of an era of competing at the top end for Arsenal.

You would think the latter is more likely due to Arsenal's stature as a club compared to Leicester when they had their season winning it then completely fell away.
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It really comes down to the intention of the Kroenkes and if the drop in revenue and current status is enough to scare them into really wanting to invest to bring Arsenal back into really challenging for trophies. I'm very pessimistic on whether they have the right intent to really do what is required to bring the club back into league contention but with the success of Arteta and Edu so far (definitely exceeding what I expected), I'm happy to be wrong there about backing, even though I still dislike Kroenke as a person very much.
 
Daydreamer said:
He's a big loss. He can cover the entire back line. Reuell Walters may well make his debut this season.
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He has been so poor the hole season.
his performance against Bournemouth was maybe worst than Tavares against Liverpool.
Can’t see a bright future for him.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
It really comes down to the intention of the Kroenkes and if the drop in revenue and current status is enough to scare them into really wanting to invest to bring Arsenal back into really challenging for trophies. I'm very pessimistic on whether they have the right intent to really do what is required to bring the club back into league contention but with the success of Arteta and Edu so far (definitely exceeding what I expected), I'm happy to be wrong there about backing, even though I still dislike Kroenke as a person very much.
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To be fair to the Kroenkes their investment record since they too full ownership (2018) is pretty good. And the LA Rams recently won the Super Bowl (interestingly, also with a very young Coach).

We’re never going to be able to compete financially with state-backed clubs, but I think we can still go toe-to-toe on the pitch. As every PL club starts to have money, I can imagine a lot more scenarios like Caicedo in the future. Our biggest asset might be our academy.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
It really comes down to the intention of the Kroenkes and if the drop in revenue and current status is enough to scare them into really wanting to invest to bring Arsenal back into really challenging for trophies. I'm very pessimistic on whether they have the right intent to really do what is required to bring the club back into league contention but with the success of Arteta and Edu so far (definitely exceeding what I expected), I'm happy to be wrong there about backing, even though I still dislike Kroenke as a person very much.
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Our spending has definitely gone up since Josh got more involved. He seems more invested in the club's success than Stan was so I'm a little more optimistic on that front
 
TheReligion said:
I think, and hope, you win the league this season.

Next will be very interesting as I think a number of teams will be in the mix and it should be very competitive. Arsenal will have CL football to navigate so recruitment in the summer will be pivotal to being able to compete on both fronts.

In terms of wages and contracts I think an interesting comparison is to that of Liverpool. If Arsenal want to stay true to their model they might have to accept losing out on some players or letting others go. This is what happened with Wijnaldum and Mane.

Liverpool also had to eventually decide to give Salah over 300k per week and make sacrifices elsewhere within the squad. This pinch point will come to Arsenal at some point in the future and it’s not always easy to get right and navigate, as shown by Klopp and the results of this season.

I’m not sure we will see any team dominating in the future which can only be good for the league. I wonder what the odds would be on the next few PL winners all being different clubs…
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Things do change quickly. Not a chance in hell would anyone have picked us to finish ahead of Liverpool this season. I think we are 27 points ahead of them, which is insane, for a turn around over just 2 months summer break.
I think financially we ll be in a good position, Liverpool still spent 80m plus on Nunez and 30m plus on Gakpo after getting luis Diaz midway through last season for near 60m.
Bit of a myth that Liverpool have had to make sacrifices, they’ve still spent a tonne of money on signings, but they haven’t worked out yet.
 
TheReligion said:
I think, and hope, you win the league this season.

Next will be very interesting as I think a number of teams will be in the mix and it should be very competitive. Arsenal will have CL football to navigate so recruitment in the summer will be pivotal to being able to compete on both fronts.

In terms of wages and contracts I think an interesting comparison is to that of Liverpool. If Arsenal want to stay true to their model they might have to accept losing out on some players or letting others go. This is what happened with Wijnaldum and Mane.

Liverpool also had to eventually decide to give Salah over 300k per week and make sacrifices elsewhere within the squad. This pinch point will come to Arsenal at some point in the future and it’s not always easy to get right and navigate, as shown by Klopp and the results of this season.

I’m not sure we will see any team dominating in the future which can only be good for the league. I wonder what the odds would be on the next few PL winners all being different clubs…
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This is definitely true and I think that this pinch point will come as soon as this summer.

There are definitely quite a few tough decisions to be made. As has been mentioned, our wage bill is going to shoot up when we (hopefully) renew our best talents. We've bought well recently, but our selling has been appalling. Leno was sold for an initial payment of £3m. We need to get a lot better at negotiating fees for our outgoing players.

We also have to make our mind up about:
  • Loyal servants who can be improved upon (Holding / El Neny)
  • Good players who don't fit our current system (Tierney / Turner)
  • Players who may possibly never perform at their current high standard ever again (Xhaka)
  • Younger prospects who are at make or break stage (Smith-Rowe / Nelson / Nketiah)
  • First-teamers returning from loan (Pepe / Balogun / Cedric / Maitland-Niles)
  • Young players returning from loan (Balogan / Patino)
  • Older players who may soon need replacing (Jorginho)
There are question marks all over the squad. I hope the majority either (a) rise to the challenge, or (b) are moved on for reasonable fees. I'm optimistic about (a) and pretty pessimistic about (b). Hopefully Edu improves in this regard. It should be easier now he has players other teams actually want as opposed to deadwood. We'll see.
 
sglowrider said:
200k for a 20/21y.o is crazy.

I am not sure even Rashford is getting that and he's 25y.o.
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From what I could see online, Rashford seems to be on £250k/week currently. And some reports say his new contract will be about £400k/week, but can't always believe those.
 
ESR10 said:
He has been so poor the hole season.
his performance against Bournemouth was maybe worst than Tavares against Liverpool.
Can’t see a bright future for him.
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What a difference a season makes, eh? Last season Tomi was one of our best players. This season, he's been in and out of the squad due to injury and has struggled to find form. Now he's out for the season. Get well soon!
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
It really comes down to the intention of the Kroenkes and if the drop in revenue and current status is enough to scare them into really wanting to invest to bring Arsenal back into really challenging for trophies. I'm very pessimistic on whether they have the right intent to really do what is required to bring the club back into league contention but with the success of Arteta and Edu so far (definitely exceeding what I expected), I'm happy to be wrong there about backing, even though I still dislike Kroenke as a person very much.
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Surely Arsenal gaining CL football money will help? You're only a point away from guaranteeing it (I heard a commentator say that on the weekend) and that should prop up the funds a bit. You've also got a big stadium with high attendance revenue (I think your ticket prices are the highest in London?).
 
Daydreamer said:
This is definitely true and I think that this pinch point will come as soon as this summer.

There are definitely quite a few tough decisions to be made. As has been mentioned, our wage bill is going to shoot up when we (hopefully) renew our best talents. We've bought well recently, but our selling has been appalling. Leno was sold for an initial payment of £3m. We need to get a lot better at negotiating fees for our outgoing players.

We also have to make our mind up about:
  • Loyal servants who can be improved upon (Holding / El Neny)
  • Good players who don't fit our current system (Tierney / Turner)
  • Players who may possibly never perform at their current high standard ever again (Xhaka)
  • Younger prospects who are at make or break stage (Smith-Rowe / Nelson / Nketiah)
  • First-teamers returning from loan (Pepe / Balogun / Cedric / Maitland-Niles)
  • Young players returning from loan (Balogan / Patino)
  • Older players who may soon need replacing (Jorginho)
There are question marks all over the squad. I hope the majority either (a) rise to the challenge, or (b) are moved on for reasonable fees. I'm optimistic about (a) and pretty pessimistic about (b). Hopefully Edu improves in this regard. It should be easier now he has players other teams actually want as opposed to deadwood. We'll see.
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That’s really interesting. Thanks for posting such detail.

I’d totally forgot about Pepe to be honest. How’s he been doing? Sancho level investment that you may have to cut loose. I assume there’s no way back for him?

You also mentioned Tierney not fitting the system. Can you tell me more about that as from an outside perspective he initially looked a great signing a while ago and one I was quite envious of. I recognise it hasn’t panned out now but what happened? He seemed very talented.

That’s quite a lot of big decisions to make for Arteta and Edu, along with general strengthening of the squad.

I think that puts the difficulty in staying at the top in to perspective. It’s far from easy and nothing can be taken for granted.
 
TheReligion said:
That’s really interesting. Thanks for posting such detail.

I’d totally forgot about Pepe to be honest. How’s he been doing? Sancho level investment that you may have to cut loose. I assume there’s no way back for him?

You also mentioned Tierney not fitting the system. Can you tell me more about that as from an outside perspective he initially looked a great signing a while ago and one I was quite envious of. I recognise it hasn’t panned out now but what happened? He seemed very talented.

That’s quite a lot of big decisions to make for Arteta and Edu, along with general strengthening of the squad.

I think that puts the difficulty in staying at the top in to perspective. It’s far from easy and nothing can be taken for granted.
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Tierney's great, but think of it like how Pep went out and got Emerson because of his ability to pass the ball with his feet. Arteta apparently wants a different type of fullback to Tierney. Tierney can't play the way Zinchenko does. He's a typical full back, whereas Zinchenko cuts inside and plays like an additional midfielder.

It's all down to how Arteta wants to play and unfortunately Tierney's found himself on the bench. I think he's too good to be a bench player for us so he will probably leave.
 
JSArsenal said:
Tierney's great, but think of it like how Pep went out and got Emerson because of his ability to pass the ball with his feet. Arteta apparently wants a different type of fullback to Tierney. Tierney can't play the way Zinchenko does. He's a typical full back, whereas Zinchenko cuts inside and plays like an additional midfielder.

It's all down to how Arteta wants to play and unfortunately Tierney's found himself on the bench. I think he's too good to be a bench player for us so he will probably leave.
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Where do you think Tierney would thrive?
 
TheReligion said:
That’s really interesting. Thanks for posting such detail.

I’d totally forgot about Pepe to be honest. How’s he been doing? Sancho level investment that you may have to cut loose. I assume there’s no way back for him?

You also mentioned Tierney not fitting the system. Can you tell me more about that as from an outside perspective he initially looked a great signing a while ago and one I was quite envious of. I recognise it hasn’t panned out now but what happened? He seemed very talented.

That’s quite a lot of big decisions to make for Arteta and Edu, along with general strengthening of the squad.

I think that puts the difficulty in staying at the top in to perspective. It’s far from easy and nothing can be taken for granted.
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And yeah, the Pepe deal is definitely one where we should cut our losses. He’s a really good inside forward in a counter attacking team. Whereas we play with wingers who keep their width within a system where we generally dominate possession. It’s just a total mismatch.

Plus, it seems like there may have been some legit corruption from Raul Sanllehi regarding the fee, leading to him getting sacked. We deserved it, though, he was involved in the dodgy Neymar deal, so we should have seen it coming.

I think we get £20m for Pepe, tops. Even that would be a £52m loss. And we reportedly pay him £140,000 per week. Definitely our worst ever signing.
 
Klopper76 said:
Surely Arsenal gaining CL football money will help? You're only a point away from guaranteeing it (I heard a commentator say that on the weekend) and that should prop up the funds a bit. You've also got a big stadium with high attendance revenue (I think your ticket prices are the highest in London?).
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Yep, I think so. Even if this is a season where everything has clicked and we’re not able to recapture the dynamic again, I think we’ll have taken a step forward as a club. Our squad is young and we can fill in the holes in the summer, so I’m fairly confident we can cement ourselves as CL regulars once again.

As for this season, I am sweating on Saliba’s fitness. The drop off between him and Holding is pretty big. Not just in quality, but in style. We can’t play as high a line without Saliba’s recovery pace, so Gabriel, White and Partey have way more ground to cover.
 
TheReligion said:
That’s really interesting. Thanks for posting such detail.

I’d totally forgot about Pepe to be honest. How’s he been doing? Sancho level investment that you may have to cut loose. I assume there’s no way back for him?

You also mentioned Tierney not fitting the system. Can you tell me more about that as from an outside perspective he initially looked a great signing a while ago and one I was quite envious of. I recognise it hasn’t panned out now but what happened? He seemed very talented.

That’s quite a lot of big decisions to make for Arteta and Edu, along with general strengthening of the squad.

I think that puts the difficulty in staying at the top in to perspective. It’s far from easy and nothing can be taken for granted.
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Pepe is doing fine in France. Has 6 goals and Nice are 7th. I don't think he suits our high pressing/energy style and Arteta made his mind up on him pretty quickly. Player seems happier there too. I think he'll be gone in the summer.

Tierney is a great player but can't play the Zinchenko role (not many players can TBH). I have no doubt Arteta would prefer to keep him, but I think Tierney (who's only 25) wants and deserves to be playing regularly. There's no doubt he's behind Zinny in the pecking order right now. It's really up to the player IMO. It's not a bad thing to have a more conventional LB in your squad for balance, and he is the better defender of the two. But he's too good to be backup really.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Pepe is doing fine in France. Has 6 goals and Nice are 7th. I don't think he suits our high pressing/energy style and Arteta made his mind up on him pretty quickly. Player seems happier there too. I think he'll be gone in the summer.

Tierney is a great player but can't play the Zinchenko role (not many players can TBH). I have no doubt Arteta would prefer to keep him, but I think Tierney (who's only 25) wants and deserves to be playing regularly. There's no doubt he's behind Zinny in the pecking order right now. It's really up to the player IMO. It's not a bad thing to have a more conventional LB in your squad for balance, and he is the better defender of the two. But he's too good to be backup really.
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It’s a bit of a problem, really. The only way you can keep someone of Tierney’s quality with the number of minutes we give him is to reach City levels of success. They managed to keep Zinchenko for five years because he was drowning in medals.
 
WeePat said:
You’re not wrong re; wage bill. I’m just saying, at least in this specific scenario bringing Sancho into the discussion isn’t unreasonable when they’re discussing Saka’s contract.
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I think it is almost irrelevant what Sancho is on when it comes to Saka's contract. We massively overpaid for Sancho, he's on massively inflated wages, and we are a massively larger club than Arsenal. Saka is better, or at least more effective in the PL, but he still plays for a smaller club with a more sensible wage structure. It's also largely beside the point what Grealish gets at Man City, but if Saka's agents wanted to look at what Grealish got at Villa, that would be relevant. James Ward-Prowse would also be relevant. Perisic at Spurs, relevant. Vastly overpaid player at vastly larger club, not relevant. What players get at City is not only irrelevant but impossible to know due to their shady ways, as well as their bottomless well of cash.
 
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