Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread

[acnumber9]

We're discussing facts here. How much Arsenal spent to assemble their squad is public knowledge. The same is the case for United. One number is a lot lower than the other. You can draw whatever conclusions from that as you wish. My opinion is that Arsenal are making pretty good use of their resources and I think the numbers back that up.

United spent a lot in the summer. They spend a lot most summers. They've spent more than pretty much anyone else - until Chelsea went on their rampage. But seeing as United spend money that the club generates, I don't see the spending itself as a problem. How effectively the money has been spent, is a different matter.

We are discussing facts. And those facts, per Transfermarkt, show Arsenal’s first choice 11 cost €385.40m. United’s cost €410.52m. That’s not some massive discrepancy that merits any real feeling that United have vastly more resources than Arsenal currently do.

You’re right that United have spent poorly. Woodward is gone though so the hope is that our investment will continue to improve.

Point being that there isn’t a massive difference on what has been spent on both teams first 11. Arsenal haven’t been working under the handicap of Ed Woodward either.

 

[acnumber9]

Not having much to spend in January doesn't mean you wouldn't have much to spend in the summer though.

That depends on the ownership situation. Every reliable journalist is quite insistent United will be heavily hamstrung this summer. Partly because of spending more last summer.

 

[Sweet Square]

I mentioned Mourinho because he’s the currently the Manager who won the league at the youngest age. If someone has a chance to break a record, it’s fairly common to draw comparisons with the current record holder.

I don’t particularly care about the one year difference, which is why I didn’t bring it up - you did.

He would be the youngest ever PL Champion, though. I'd rank that win over Mourinho's PL win, seeing as he spent a boatload to take Chelsea up a single place.

?

 

[Daydreamer]

?

What’s the confusion?

 

[GoonerBear]

We are discussing facts. And those facts, per Transfermarkt, show Arsenal’s first choice 11 cost €385.40m. United’s cost €410.52m. That’s not some massive discrepancy that merits any real feeling that United have vastly more resources than Arsenal currently do.

You’re right that United have spent poorly. Woodward is gone though so the hope is that our investment will continue to improve.

Point being that there isn’t a massive difference on what has been spent on both teams first 11. Arsenal haven’t been working under the handicap of Ed Woodward either.

As we know though, a squad isn't just about the first XI. And resources is more than just what you can spend in transfer fees.

Not that it matters, I think the horse has well and truly bolted when discussing clubs spend anyway now.

You need to spend, to compete. I think we can all agree with that.

 

[Daydreamer]

We are discussing facts. And those facts, per Transfermarkt, show Arsenal’s first choice 11 cost €385.40m. United’s cost €410.52m. That’s not some massive discrepancy that merits any real feeling that United have vastly more resources than Arsenal currently do.

You’re right that United have spent poorly. Woodward is gone though so the hope is that our investment will continue to improve.

Point being that there isn’t a massive difference on what has been spent on both teams first 11. Arsenal haven’t been working under the handicap of Ed Woodward either.

1. Chelsea – €1.01billion
2. Man City – €960.6million
3. Man United – €876.2million
4. Liverpool – €709.05million
5. Arsenal – €531.5million
6. Newcastle – €458.95million
7. Tottenham – €390.3million
8. West Ham – €379.7million
9. Leicester – €362.1million
10. Wolves – €353.9million
11. Aston Villa –€341.6million
12. Southampton – €293.1million
13. Everton – €288.1million
14. Leeds – €241.4million
15. Crystal Palace – €217.9million
16. Bournemouth – €209.5million
17. Nottingham Forest – €187.6million
18. Fulham – €137.0million
19. Brentford – €124.1million
20. Brighton – €111.1million

 

[TheReligion]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there are two sets of rules and certain rules apply to opposition fans that don't apply to you. Redcafe is the best football forum because the staff puts in a lot of volunteer work curating the forum so it has quality posters from all over the world and multiple clubs that all adhere to the general rules of decency and good faith discussions. Your posts in this thread, (the Arsenal thread in the football forum not a United thread on the United forum), at least since Thursday, have been more baiting, wumming, indirect and direct insults of other posters than every Arsenal fan in this thread put together. It is revealing to see you admit that you don't feel you have to argue in good faith but you expect others to somehow be respectful to you no matter what.

I’m not mistaking anything. You are the one who tagged me to try and make some kind of point and you’re a scout so I’m not sure you were really contributing all that much to the ‘good faith discussion’.

Again I don’t expect anything. You seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions based on very little other than your own imagination and Arsenal tinted glasses.

It’s an Arsenal thread on a Manchester United forum by the way. Just incase you were unsure.

Anyway if you wish to continue the conversation feel free to PM me. I’ve no desire to pollute the Arsenal thread anymore as there are actually a few genuine posters here and it’s unfair to them. Cheers.

 

[Daydreamer]

As we know though, a squad isn't just about the first XI. And resources is more than just what you can spend in transfer fees.

Not that it matters, I think the horse has well and truly bolted when discussing clubs spend anyway now.

You need to spend, to compete. I think we can all agree with that.

Yep, I didn’t even bring up wages where United’s are double Arsenal’s.

Arsenal have made good use of the money we have available.

United spend more money that they generate themselves.

Both things can be true at the same time. They’re also both good things for their respective clubs.

Arsenal will make it back into the CL and generate more revenue. And United have recruited a top class Manager who can use their resources more wisely. It’s all good.

 

[acnumber9]

1. Chelsea – €1.01billion
2. Man City – €960.6million
3. Man United – €876.2million
4. Liverpool – €709.05million
5. Arsenal – €531.5million
6. Newcastle – €458.95million
7. Tottenham – €390.3million
8. West Ham – €379.7million
9. Leicester – €362.1million
10. Wolves – €353.9million
11. Aston Villa –€341.6million
12. Southampton – €293.1million
13. Everton – €288.1million
14. Leeds – €241.4million
15. Crystal Palace – €217.9million
16. Bournemouth – €209.5million
17. Nottingham Forest – €187.6million
18. Fulham – €137.0million
19. Brentford – €124.1million
20. Brighton – €111.1million

Over what period? And what impact does it have on what is expected of the current teams?

 

[acnumber9]

As we know though, a squad isn't just about the first XI. And resources is more than just what you can spend in transfer fees.

Not that it matters, I think the horse has well and truly bolted when discussing clubs spend anyway now.

You need to spend, to compete. I think we can all agree with that.

Agreed, which is why Arsenal fans need to stop pretending it’s been done on a shoestring. Arsenal have opened the purse strings the last few years. That’s not to say they haven’t done very well with it this season.

 

[acnumber9]

Yep, I didn’t even bring up wages where United’s are double Arsenal’s.

Arsenal have made good use of the money we have available.

United spend more money that they generate themselves.

Both things can be true at the same time. They’re also both good things for their respective clubs.

Arsenal will make it back into the CL and generate more revenue. And United have recruited a top class Manager who can use their resources more wisely. It’s all good.

That wage bill will be expanding rapidly if Arsenal intend to keep the likes of Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli long term.

 

[GoonerBear]

That wage bill will be expanding rapidly if Arsenal intend to keep the likes of Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli long term.

It will expand anyway with bonuses and such for qualifying for the Champions League.

Think the key with keeping a handle on wages is to try and not have as much dead wood on the books.

We took the step last January and the summer of clearing as much of that as we could. Still got a bit to go this summer as well to be fair.

 

[CannonBalls]

He’s not your best player though whatever you labelled him. If I want you to lose the title I’d prefer Saka being out rather than Jesus. But I think it’s much better you win the league than cheats

This is probably true now as Nketiah and Trossard have stepped up. At the time Jesus got injured the drop from him to his backup was assumed to be huge just like Partey.
But even then I get your point and agree Saka is our best player

 

[Daydreamer]

Over what period? And what impact does it have on what is expected of the current teams?

Sorry, I didn’t label it clearly. It isn’t over a period, it’s total squad cost. It’s basically same the as the figures you were using, but for the squad as opposed only 11 players.

As for the impact it has on expectations, it’s quite natural for them to rise in line with the amount of money spent. I’ve never really had an extended debate with anyone about it before as it’s pretty generally accepted.

 

[Daydreamer]

Agreed, which is why Arsenal fans need to stop pretending it’s been done on a shoestring. Arsenal have opened the purse strings the last few years. That’s not to say they haven’t done very well with it this season.

Has anybody actually done that? The figures are there and you can make your own mind up.

 

[Klopper76]

Regardless of what happens this season, it'll be interesting to see if this is a one off season where a lot goes Arsenal's way or if it's the start of an era of competing at the top end for Arsenal.

You would think the latter is more likely due to Arsenal's stature as a club compared to Leicester when they had their season winning it then completely fell away.

 

[Tapori]

Dangerously performing at title-winning levels.
Let April pass and we shall see.

 

[sglowrider]

That wage bill will be expanding rapidly if Arsenal intend to keep the likes of Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli long term.

Its crazy paying Saka what he's asking. It will just undo all the work that Edu & team had done to bring the wages down the past few seasons.

 

[Buxton]

Its crazy paying Saka what he's asking. It will just undo all the work that Edu & team had done to bring the wages down the past few seasons.

They did all the work so they can free up enough wages to pay one of the best players in the world what he’s worth.
We are paying it for arguably our most consistent player who is guaranteed to deliver every game, what price do you put on talent like that, when the league is full of players nowhere near as good as him on a lot more money.
If I start mentioning the money Sancho and Antony are on, and what Rashford wants, I’ll be called a wind up merchant when I’m in fact just responding to wind up posts.
The only reason Saka signs on for 200k is because he absolutely loves the club, he can easily get double that money elsewhere.

 

[sglowrider]

They did all the work so they can free up enough wages to pay one of the best players in the world what he’s worth.
We are paying it for arguably our most consistent player who is guaranteed to deliver every game, what price do you put on talent like that, when the league is full of players nowhere near as good as him on a lot more money.
If I start mentioning the money Sancho and Antony are on, and what Rashford wants, I’ll be called a wind up merchant when I’m in fact just responding to wind up posts.
The only reason Saka signs on for 200k is because he absolutely loves the club, he can easily get double that money elsewhere.

Saka's 20. How much will he be asking in his near-peak years 24-25y.o? 500k? By then I suspect you will need to have the Real Madrid salary structure of 3-tiers.

It's different with United since our revenues have always been much much higher than Arsenal's. Until recently our wage bills were hovering around 50% of total revenues only. We could afford to be held under ransom despite the incompetent strategy of Woodward. Not sure you want to get into that situation, especially without the financial buffer that Unit6ed had back then.

And even then, a (pre-crim) Greenwood was 'only' like on 70k at around that age and he was considered a more valuable asset back then.

 

[Buxton]

Saka's 20. How much will he be asking in his near-peak years 24-25y.o? 500k? By then I suspect you will need to have the Real Madrid salary structure of 3-tiers.

It's different with United since our revenues have always been much much higher than Arsenal's. Until recently our wage bills were hovering around 50% of total revenues only. We could afford to be held under ransom despite the incompetent strategy of Woodward. Not sure you want to get into that situation, especially without the financial buffer that Unit6ed had back then.

And even then, a (pre-crim) Greenwood was 'only' like on 70k at around that age and he was considered a more valuable asset back then.

I think you're right, its best we sell him.
Possibly already the best player in the world in his position, but if he keeps improving, and becomes some sort of generational player, then we are totally screwed. Exactly the position we dont want to be in. He 'll probably be like, im winning you all these trophies so pay me, feck that, hope we never end up there and get rid of him before all this happens.

 

[GoonerBear]

Its crazy paying Saka what he's asking. It will just undo all the work that Edu & team had done to bring the wages down the past few seasons.

You honestly think that? Whats the alternative strategy? You've finally built a good young team to challenge that you hope for a few years, only to lose probably your poster boy of the team at 21 at the first contract renewal, perhaps to your main rivals? What sort of message does that send out?

 

[GoonerGirly]

Its crazy paying Saka what he's asking. It will just undo all the work that Edu & team had done to bring the wages down the past few seasons.

Is there any confirmation on the contract details yet? I thought it was around £200k/week, from early (unconfirmed reports)? Seems completely fair?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Its crazy paying Saka what he's asking. It will just undo all the work that Edu & team had done to bring the wages down the past few seasons.

If it’s 200K he’s worth it in today’s climate. Arsenal will have to expand their wage structure if they want to stay competitive consistently.

 

[sglowrider]

You honestly think that? Whats the alternative strategy? You've finally built a good young team to challenge that you hope for a few years, only to lose probably your poster boy of the team at 21 at the first contract renewal, perhaps to your main rivals? What sort of message does that send out?

Ok. Stream of consciousness here.

What's the objective of these contracts?
i) Reward performance
ii) Encourage 'loyalty'
iii) Image Rights revenues

Instead of tearing down what Edu has admired done the past few years of breaking the exorbitant and extortionary wage structure why not do this:

a) Create a financial pot (££) either a fund or an investment entity. This fund/entity has shares and options in this fund or entity. Each player gets an X amount of shares and options from the academy to senior team players. Each share/option has a guaranteed minimum value and may increase depending on the financial success of the club. They can also be encashed at different values the longer they keep the shares and options or when they leave the club.
b) The base amount of shares and/or options in this fund/entity varies the value the management perceived the player to be. The longer the player stays, the more cumulative shares/options the player has.
c) The player gets to negotiate an increase in shares/options upon contract renewal. But based on individual KPIs and team success.
d) Each player's contract will have some base salary -- say £80k for Saka -- a ''competitive PL living wage'' (instead of the reported 200k per week.) But those stock/option in this fund/entity is negotiated based on specific stats/data and team success (like profit sharing.)


This serves two purposes:
1) It encourages players' loyalty.
2) It helps make the salary/wage scale more opaque and therefore reduces the chances of wage inflation/spiral.

 

[sglowrider]

Is there any confirmation on the contract details yet? I thought it was around £200k/week, from early (unconfirmed reports)? Seems completely fair?

200k for a 20/21y.o is crazy.

I am not sure even Rashford is getting that and he's 25y.o.

 

[gajender]

Ok. Stream of consciousness here.

What's the objective of these contracts?
i) Reward performance
ii) Encourage 'loyalty'
iii) Image Rights revenues

Instead of tearing down what Edu has admired done the past few years of breaking the exorbitant and extortionary wage structure why not do this:

a) Create a financial pot (££) either a fund or an investment entity. This fund/entity has shares and options in this fund or entity. Each player gets an X amount of shares and options from the academy to senior team players. Each share/option has a guaranteed minimum value and may increase depending on the financial success of the club. They can also be encashed at different values the longer they keep the shares and options or when they leave the club.
b) The base amount of shares and/or options in this fund/entity varies the value the management perceived the player to be. The longer the player stays, the more cumulative shares/options the player has.
c) The player gets to negotiate an increase in shares/options upon contract renewal. But based on individual KPIs and team success.
d) Each player's contract will have some base salary -- say £80k for Saka -- a ''competitive PL living wage'' (instead of the reported 200k per week.) But those stock/option in this fund/entity is negotiated based on specific stats/data and team success (like profit sharing.)


This serves two purposes:
1) It encourages players' loyalty.
2) It helps make the salary/wage scale more opaque and therefore reduces the chances of wage inflation/spiral.

Edu would be laughed out of Room by Saka's agent if he ever came up with something like this while negotiating Saka's contract and rightfully so , you are overthinking it Saka is one of the best player in the world in the position he plays who is yet to hit his prime if Arsenal can get him to sign new contract worth anything in and around 250 k a week they should do it without hesitation .

 

[Buxton]

Jadon Sancho is on a whopping 350k a week, he’s not half the player Saka is, just glad Saka and his agent are not using that as a yardstick for the money they want, they’ll be well within their right to demand parity or more.
If he signs on for 200k itll be another master stroke by the club, and will show how much he wants to stay.

 

[GoonerBear]

Ok. Stream of consciousness here.

What's the objective of these contracts?
i) Reward performance
ii) Encourage 'loyalty'
iii) Image Rights revenues

Instead of tearing down what Edu has admired done the past few years of breaking the exorbitant and extortionary wage structure why not do this:

a) Create a financial pot (££) either a fund or an investment entity. This fund/entity has shares and options in this fund or entity. Each player gets an X amount of shares and options from the academy to senior team players. Each share/option has a guaranteed minimum value and may increase depending on the financial success of the club. They can also be encashed at different values the longer they keep the shares and options or when they leave the club.
b) The base amount of shares and/or options in this fund/entity varies the value the management perceived the player to be. The longer the player stays, the more cumulative shares/options the player has.
c) The player gets to negotiate an increase in shares/options upon contract renewal. But based on individual KPIs and team success.
d) Each player's contract will have some base salary -- say £80k for Saka -- a ''competitive PL living wage'' (instead of the reported 200k per week.) But those stock/option in this fund/entity is negotiated based on specific stats/data and team success (like profit sharing.)


This serves two purposes:
1) It encourages players' loyalty.
2) It helps make the salary/wage scale more opaque and therefore reduces the chances of wage inflation/spiral.

I like the theory behind it, but what I would question is why would a players and agent agree to sign up for that, if the agent can just come to the table and say listen, we've got a verbal offer of £250K base a week from Man City on the table, so why would I sign up for that?

Listen, also bear in mind all we hear is the headlines of Saka to agree new £200k a week contract. But contracts are a lot more complicated than that already. There's probably all the different bonuses you've already mentioned based on player performance, on team performances, of things like media and commercial rights etc. These all come into play. We never really know what a footballer gets, it's just headline figures we hear.

 

[sglowrider]

I like the theory behind it, but what I would question is why would a players and agent agree to sign up for that, if the agent can just come to the table and say listen, we've got a verbal offer of £250K base a week from Man City on the table, so why would I sign up for that?

Listen, also bear in mind all we here is the headlines of Saka to agree new £200k a week contract. But contracts are a lot more complicated than that. You've all different sets of bonuses, perhaps based on player performance, on team performances, of things like media and commercial rights etc. These all come into play as well. We never really know what a footballer gets, it's just headline figures we hear.

Obviously, the sums and the amount of seed money for the fund needs to be calculated. But what if he signed the contract and stayed the entire length of the contract and he can get 250k equivalent or more?
Players could be comparing their share or options amounts but then the guaranteed value could vary depending on when the player signed.

The key is that it doesn't spiral the wage bill by eliminating the upfront amount and using that as a milestone. Opaque. The player's CPA can do his calculation and show it's worth their while. The impact of the wage spiral is the critical objective since not only are the contracts lengthy but also the knock-on effects on the other players.

Its a forced saving account for the player too. Anyone player making over 20-50k per week will start to spend stupidly anyway. Maybe they can withdraw from that fund only money they can use for housing? Just not for watches or cars!!!

 

[GoonerBear]

The other thing to bare in mind is that I that I think revenues are going to increase anyway, as 22/23 sees the first season on the latest broadcast deal. The prize money has went up (champions get £176M compared to £153M), and the distribution for overseas broadcast is becoming more weighted for performance in the league (top club could earn an extra £25M).

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news...n-over-next-three-years/?zephr_sso_ott=uuS2aT

Obviously Champions League qualification is a big revenue driver as well.

Commercially we've lagged behind but I think this might be the first season of the improved Adidas kit deal, plus the Emirates shirt sponsorship is up for renewal next year. This period of improved performance really should be used to drive the commercial revenues upwards.

So as long as your cautious with your wage bill even though it's increasing, as long as you can still increase revenues at a similar rate then all should be good.

 

[FootyGirl88]

 

[TheReligion]

Jadon Sancho is on a whopping 350k a week, he’s not half the player Saka is, just glad Saka and his agent are not using that as a yardstick for the money they want, they’ll be well within their right to demand parity or more.
If he signs on for 200k itll be another master stroke by the club, and will show how much he wants to stay.

Other than trying to dig United out (again) what’s the relevance of Sancho to Saka?

 

[GoonerBear]

Other than trying to dig United out (again) what’s the relevance of Sancho to Saka?

I suppose it's the agents jobs to look at their peers and see what the going rate is and use that as part of a yardstick of what others at a similar age, position and nationality are on.

Although Sancho's wage is partly drive with the premium price tag, whereas as someone like Foden coming through the Academy is probably a better comparison.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I suppose it's the agents jobs to look at their peers and see what the going rate is and use that as part of a yardstick of what others at a similar age, position and nationality are on.

Nah Sancho is no yardstick. He’s an anomaly in how he was absurdly good in one country and disappointing in another. But I do think Saka is worth those figures (right now, which is all you can judge).

 

[Buxton]

Other than trying to dig United out (again) what’s the relevance of Sancho to Saka?

Ermmm everything ?
you think Saka’s agent isn’t aware what players in the same division of a lesser ability are on?
that would be the opening gambit in any contract negotiation.
It’s like when shaktar told us if Grealish and Antony are worth 100m then we want the same for Mudryk. They even name dropped Antony and said their player is better (hasn’t worked out like that so far) .
You really think there’s no connection ? Wow.

 

[footyfan019]

Saka is a potential 100m player, renewing him on 200k would be fine as long as that includes performance bonuses etc. It will protect his value if ever Arsenal have to sell him. Also with his playing style he will improve even more in next 2-3 seasons. He has gone few levels up this season.

 

[roonster09]

Jadon Sancho is on a whopping 350k a week, he’s not half the player Saka is, just glad Saka and his agent are not using that as a yardstick for the money they want, they’ll be well within their right to demand parity or more.
If he signs on for 200k itll be another master stroke by the club, and will show how much he wants to stay.

 

[roonster09]

Ermmm everything ?
you think Saka’s agent isn’t aware what players in the same division of a lesser ability are on?
that would be the opening gambit in any contract negotiation.
It’s like when shaktar told us if Grealish and Antony are worth 100m then we want the same for Mudryk. They even name dropped Antony and said their player is better (hasn’t worked out like that so far) .
You really think there’s no connection ? Wow.

Small club pays low wages, what a shocking world.

 

[GoonerBear]

Nah Sancho is no yardstick. He’s an anomaly in how he was absurdly good in one country and disappointing in another. But I do think Saka is worth those figures (right now, which is all you can judge).

I did add a bit to my post for context, but you replied too soon to catch the edit.