Easier tactic to play against Tottenham is to bypass their midfield by going direct. That requires good long ball and a good target man. If anything, it exposed Bakayoko's tactical inreflexibilty (opposite what you said!) as he is more physical player than one who has the range of passing to tackle different game plan. In the old transfer Bakayoko thread, many of us reference him to Fellaini for that reason (Bakayoko is better technically and dribbling) still his passing range is decent as best. He is more about carrying the ball and tidy passing than can work team out with his passing. Against Tottenham it was pretty much playing into their hand.
Chelsea under Conte | Let's sign the next Hazard, literally.
- Thread starter Gandalf Greyhame
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
What I'm referring to more has to do with the concept of the spare man in defense. Almost all teams will keep 3 men back to defend whilst in possession. In a team with a four man defense where the fullbacks push up, there is almost always a midfielder designated to sit deeper to break up play in the middle of the park whilst the centre halves will naturally push a bit wider to cover the space left by the FBs. This is the role that Matic is tailor-made for. In a system with 3 CBs, this role doesn't really exist-obviously the 3 CBs will sit deep to cover, so the two CMs in the 3-4-3 have to push further up the pitch. This put Matic out of his comfort zone, so for Chelsea he was a bit of an awkward fit and hence this is why Bakayoko makes a bit more sense as a player who is more comfortable moving vertically as well as horizontally.
I think this is why Luiz won't be playing in midfield as opposed to Bakayoko-I'd expect Chelsea's midfield in a 3-5-1-1 to be Kante-Fabregas-Bakayoko, which looks an awful lot like the very successful Conte Juventus midfield of Pogba-Pirlo-Vidal. I believe that this match was the highest percentage of long balls played by Chelsea under Conte for that very reason-to bypass Spurs' very effective pressing game. For me the gameplan today was about mucking up the middle of the pitch as much as possible-last season when Spurs got a lot of joy against us at WHL it was due to their superior pressing and pace in midfield, and they were able to exploit Matic's limitations to some extent by overrunning him.
There are only very few midfielders who won't do poorly when pressed.
Is it just me or Bakayoko was a bit crap?
I suppose stranger things have happened but I'd be absolutely astonished if Bakayoko is at either of those clubs in 2 years. Also, just for reference, Matic is now 29.
Even at 29, he's got about 4 years left. It's a lot in football, especially if you are trying to win now.
I'd not be very surprised if Bakayoko ends up at a smaller club in 2-3 years. People would have also said it was impossible for Schneiderlin to take a step down after less than two years and it happened. He was even more of a sure thing in 2015 as he was PL proven, and you'd also have believed that replacing Matic with him was great business.
I don't think this is true at all, there are several who can effectively break pressing by passing quickly with either foot and moving into an open avenue for the return ball. Matic often needs to shape his body in a predictable way to receive the ball on his left foot and he's not what anyone would consider rapid, especially over short distances.
This again is why he is best suited for a deep lying role, where he can receive the ball from a consistent angle and distribute it without having to rotate himself too much.
No there aren't. There are very few midfielders who plays passes with both feet and are comfortable even when pressed.
Fair enough; I'd argue otherwise given that Bakayoko has hit heights that Schneiderlin never did, having been named in a Champions League team of the year. Obviously small sample size caveats apply.
Matic was MOTM for United against Real Madrid..
These Chelsea fans!
These Chelsea fans!
Yeah he was immense for Monaco last year and it's rare that a player who plays this well in Champions League goes on to fail, but I still reckon him being in that team of the year was a bit of a stretch and although chances of him failing are rather slim, it could happen.
I don't really give a shite about the next few years tbh. We will sign another player when the time comes.
As for Chelsea, neither, Kante or Bakayoko are defensive midfielders. Both like to get up and down the pitch.
Probably best for their 3 at the back formation. The problem is that both aren't that creative.
As for Chelsea, neither, Kante or Bakayoko are defensive midfielders. Both like to get up and down the pitch.
Probably best for their 3 at the back formation. The problem is that both aren't that creative.
The Spurs of last season were an extremely solid defensive unit, as strong as any team in the prem could offer, but right now they look a far cry that. They pressed hard, like they always do, but they seem to lack that "bite" of last season. Something is missing, can't quite put my finger on it, but for me they look weaker defensively - as a collective rather than individually - and quite frankly a team with more intent to attack may just come up trumps against them. Certainly look susceptible to counter attacking.
From an attacking perspective, without the combination of Walker + Rose providing width and pace in abundance, they lack balance. Alli in particular is missing Rose, not a solitary dribble or pass of note in the first 2 games, and considering he is Spurs' most productive player in the final third, he needs to take responsibility and step up his game. Spurs look toothless without his creativity.
Agreed, they definitely missed thrust from their wingbacks. I thought Davies did reasonably well whilst Trippier was poor overall personally, especially attacking-wise. For me Spurs' best moments came when they attacked down the channels towards the end of the first half, but to Conte's credit he seemed to address this during the break as Kante, Bakayoko, and Luiz were stationed there during the second half and those avenues were shut down.
I was surprised Alli didn't try to break in behind; his best chance came in the first half when Christensen made his solitary mistake. Last year when they turned us over at WHL we couldn't deal with Alli's movement, so for him to be more or less static between the lines today was a relief. Spurs look far more threatening when they have Son on as well and they can allow him, Alli, and Eriksen to combine behind Kane, though against us I can understand why Poch was a bit more conservative, particularly given Son's lack of fitness.
I don't think they're stretching teams as much as they did last year-Trippier and Davies aren't anywhere near as threatening as Rose/Walker are to get in behind if Spurs are playing wingbacks, so Moses and Alonso were free to press high into midfield which forced possession back to Wanyama and Demebele without worrying about the wingbacks exploiting the space behind them.
As opposed to United fans praising Matic as the next Roy Keane after two games against the likes of West Ham and Swansea?
Bakayoko just came back from injury and completely missed preseason due to major surgery. That was his first game in months. He's clearly nowhere near 100% and in different circumstances would not have featured at all. The lack of options forced Conte to use him earlier than he'd have wanted and I thought all things considered he did OK.
Really? Who's saying that?
Also, regarding Matic, I think more than his 3 competitive games with us (he was also very good against Madrid), people have seen a lot of him as he plays in the PL - whereas I'd venture that most people haven't seen that many of Bakayoko's performances in the French league.
Agreed. Plus all this it was just Swansea and WH is actually hilarious considering they lost Burnley at home.
I've noticed that Chelsea fans are absolutely desperate to diminish Matic's abilities and achievements and inflate those of Bakayoko in comparison.
The evidence is there for all to see - Matic has been an absolute revelation for United so far, acting as an enabler for the rest of the side. We haven't looked such a balanced unit for years.
Even if - if - Bakayoko ends up being a good player for Chelsea, a lot of their fans seem to be missing the key point - they may not miss Matic in the short, medium or long term, but they've basically handed us a player that could transform our fortunes on a shiny platter.
No matter which way they try to spin it, it's diabolical football business to so obviously strengthen a rival for such a reasonable price.
The evidence is there for all to see - Matic has been an absolute revelation for United so far, acting as an enabler for the rest of the side. We haven't looked such a balanced unit for years.
Even if - if - Bakayoko ends up being a good player for Chelsea, a lot of their fans seem to be missing the key point - they may not miss Matic in the short, medium or long term, but they've basically handed us a player that could transform our fortunes on a shiny platter.
No matter which way they try to spin it, it's diabolical football business to so obviously strengthen a rival for such a reasonable price.
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I told you about 12 times already. Mourinho of 2004, Conte of 2014. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this concept.
So 2015. The time before the coaches I mention came along and only Simeone out of those were well known. You can keep phrasing the same thing in different ways, not going to make it true though.
Exactly. People on here somehow fail to understand that Chelsea have no need for a DM in this formation. In an ideal world Chelsea should have Verratti/Kroos in that position but those are not gettable players.
Also, should have sold Matic to Italy but that would have meant a £10-£15m financial loss.
United were looking for a top DM this summer and would have got one anyways. If not Matic then someone else of comparable abilities. While Chelsea could have sold Matic to Italy at a loss of £10m-15m, it would not have stopped united from buying say Dier or Fabianho.
Also, there was a near consensus among most Chelsea fans on various forums last season that Matic's position needed to be upgraded so I don't see much change there. What has flipped over if the united lot on here who were mostly annoyed at being linked with Matic and have now changed their fickle opinion.
Another myth.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nemanja-matić-manchester-united-player.431156/page-27#post-21364740
Notice the poll on this thread. 78% of people were happy with this signing and only 10% weren't annoyed that he was signed. Also notice the date at which the poll closed 7th August. Matic had only played a pre-season friendly against Sampdoria till then.
We wouldn't have signed Dier.
Fickle opinion? More like ManUtd can't believe how much better he is and looks like he is close to his 2014-15 best. There is nothing fickle about that.
That poll seems to be after the signing. Supports my point more than yours.
Yes. It was there for all to see that he is a top player even before he signed for United. But it took him becoming a united player for a lot of fans on here to change their opinion. Same goes for Jose and to some extent for Lukaku.
A substantial % of fans here and like that. You may not be one of them but there's is no arguing with that.
So people were annoyed at him being linked but happy at him being signed? How does that even make sense?
Not what I wrote. You cant throw around a poll after he was signed. Need to look at the comments before he was signed.
Also, I did not mean all United fans on here but fair few of them.
Errr..Conte didn't come from a minor league mate, he won the Serie A. Your only example of a minor league manager being better than current Mourinho according to you is Mourinho himself!
Here's my final phrasing of my point
Summer 2015:
Jose is at Chelsea
You think Jose is better than any new manager possibly could be, whether you'd heard of them or not
You think Jose will stay forever at Chelsea and it will be excellent for the club
Summer 2017:
Jose isn't at Chelsea
You think Jose has been past it since 2010
You don't believe a manager can be good long term
It's pretty clear you're exhibiting the exact revisionist behavior I've described.
Jose was always rated very highly on Redcafe, for some reason he had very good following (maybe his relationship with SAF).
Re Matic, ManUtd fans who thought he wasn't all that watched his game and are rating him highly, on the other hand Chelsea fans who watched him for 3 years started downplaying him and big up a nonexistent performance of one of their new signing. Obvious who is fickle isn't it?
A budget version maybe...
You didn't mention that in your original post plus every section of fans have a minority who are fickle. I visit reddit a lot and Chelsea fans there were gutted that Matic was sold to us, here(apart from you) many Chelsea fans were happy to sell him to us and thought that we got the wrong end of the deal.
I can't remember where, but I did read something about Matic's performance levels dipping after Christmas.
This is where our deep squad is going to need to come into play. Carrick hasn't made a match day squad yet, while Ander has had one small substitute appearance and Fellaini has come on twice.
I trust Mourinho to get the rotation right so that we're fresh going into the run in.
You gotta hand it to him. United fans are fickle because they rate Matic based on his performances and Mourinho for doing well at the club. On the other hand, AshfordLad is the paragon of consistency having rated Jose as the best when he was at Chelsea but turns out he now thinks he was always past it.Very few, if indeed. Most fans are annoyed that the Club handed United what is likely to be the final piece of a solid squad. Even though there was a near consensus that Matic was not a suitable player for B2B play.
As for Bakayoko, his second half performance was quite good and that was with no preseason and still not a 100% fit. Those who go just by the numbers are missing that part.
I thought he was very poor but tbf to him he has just came back from injury and was rushed into the team because Chelsea lack midfielders.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/che...rs-of-discontent.417928/page-58#post-21364007
Here you go. Clear enough that I mean all leagues other than Spain and England are "smaller leagues".
Again you don't seem to understand my post but for some weird reason just want to argue along on an absurd position.
No shit. He is likely the final piece to shore up that defence and release the true potential of Pogba. Personally, I would have sold him at a £10m loss to Inter or something. That said, I don't think it would have stopped Jose from getting another solid player so I can see why the board would say feck it and take the money.
I watced the game and barely noticed him. Could see him next to Morata when he missed sitter and he was the one who fouled Spurs player which led to the goal. Maybe might have missed him jogging all over the pitch.
Chelsea fans opinion on Jose was laughable, from the best in the world to past it.
Think you are trying to be sarcastic but that is indeed true. At about 10 diff times during the game yesterday, I followed Baka around for his movement and I was positively surprised. Mentioned exactly this in initial reaction to him last night.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/che...rs-of-discontent.417928/page-58#post-21371010
Now I have been very critical of the club's lack of ambition by signing Bakayoko instead of trying to sign someone established like Verratti or maybe one of Kroos/Kovacic. But looking at Bakayoko yesterday did allay some of my fears about his ability (though its just one game so it can all go tits up still).
Dier was nigh on impossible for United to get given the complexity of dealing with Spurs. As it happens, I don't think Dier is anywhere near Matic's level - probably his only advantage is age.
Fabinho is a bit of a flavour of the month player, but it would have been a gamble in a position we needed a totally dependable player.
I think the general consensus on the Caf when Matic was announced was that this is a shrewd buy for the club. His initial impact has probably taken many by surprise, but I don't think anyone has behaved in a particularly fickle manner.
It's astonishing that Chelsea have solved a problem for United without any sort of resistance. And now you lot seem to be desperate to score points in comparing the two players, which implies to me that you're feeling highly sensitive.