They are back in their pomp! Won a game and the Bertie Big Bollocks Chelsea Headhunters are putting me in my place.
I'm in tears!
Chelsea under Conte | Let's sign the next Hazard, literally.
- Thread starter Gandalf Greyhame
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
They are back in their pomp! Won a game and the Bertie Big Bollocks Chelsea Headhunters are putting me in my place.
I'm in tears!
They are back in their pomp! Won a game and the Bertie Big Bollocks Chelsea Headhunters are putting me in my place.
I'm in tears!
Glad you're man enough to admit it!
But in all seriousness, would you rather have Matic or Bakayoko for the next 5 years? Perhaps yes, Matic will be better this season. But Bakayoko cost the same amount, is on a lower salary, is 6 years younger, and I'd argue allows for more tactical flexibility.
It is hard to believe that Chelsea would purchase a player specifically for a manager's system with the long term implications in mind, but maybe this is a case of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.
Could you tell me which coach who has won titles in a minor league, like say Portugal, Holland, Russia, Turkey etc has gone on to be a better coach than Mourinho, Pep or Ancelotti? Because I'm not seeing this 9/10 rule where AVB is the exception.
Well you have been inconsistent. I mean the very summer before that horror season with Jose you claimed there weren't any new managers bar Simeone who could possibly compare, and that Jose was going to stay forever. Does that sound to you like the opinion of someone who doesn't believe in longevity and that Mourinho was past his best after 2010? It doesn't in the slightest to me.
Bakayoko completed 10 out of 16 passes, winning 1 out of 4 tackles.
Last season vs Spurs away, Matic completed 56 out of 59 passes, winning 3 out of 4 tackles.
Exposed
Glad you're man enough to admit it!
But in all seriousness, would you rather have Matic or Bakayoko for the next 5 years? Perhaps yes, Matic will be better this season. But Bakayoko cost the same amount, is on a lower salary, is 6 years younger, and I'd argue allows for more tactical flexibility.
It is hard to believe that Chelsea would purchase a player specifically for a manager's system with the long term implications in mind, but maybe this is a case of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.
Don't think many ManUtd fans will take Bakayoko over Matic considering how good Matic is for ManUtd in 2-3 games.
Bakayoko completed 10 out of 16 passes, winning 1 out of 4 tackles.
Last season vs Spurs away, Matic completed 56 out of 59 passes, winning 3 out of 4 tackles.
Exposed
Very different circumstances. Against Spurs away last season we went behind fairly early so Spurs sat deeper and we had the ball. Comparing passing totals isn't an ideal metric given the differences in match dynamics. On top of that, Bakayoko played as a shuttler in a 3 man midfield today whilst Matic played in a 2 man midfield last year, so the roles and responsibilities were quite different. Bakayoko wasn't great today IMO, but he's a better fit for the system than Matic if you ask me and the fact that he made it through 90 minutes against probably the most physically challenging midfield in the league without a preseason was hugely impressive.
I think Matic is a great fit for United. For me he doesn't work well in a system with 3 CBs as he is best when he can sit deep and dictate play from there. It's a fair point whether they'd take Matic or Bakayoko but surely objectively they could acknowledge that the latter will have more value and thus represents better business, especially as he fits better into the shape of the team.
Midfielder just attempting 16 passes against a team not named Barca is a brutal stat however you dress it up.
Young doesn't mean better value. It depends on what they offer to the team and helps team to win titles.
Unless I'm mistaken, Conte said in a presser recently that the plan was for Bakayoko to be backup but Matic's sale has changed everything and now he needs start and settle immediately.Glad you're man enough to admit it!
But in all seriousness, would you rather have Matic or Bakayoko for the next 5 years? Perhaps yes, Matic will be better this season. But Bakayoko cost the same amount, is on a lower salary, is 6 years younger, and I'd argue allows for more tactical flexibility.
It is hard to believe that Chelsea would purchase a player specifically for a manager's system with the long term implications in mind, but maybe this is a case of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.
As far as your question is concerned in general, I'd rather have the better player especially as I don't really rate Bakayoko too highly and he's still not performed at a high level for any sizeable period of time. Given Matic isn't in his mid 30s with half a foot in the retirement home, I don't really care about Bakayoko being younger nor about the wages given I don't pay them.
Eh, Moses only attempted 18. Bakayoko attempted the most dribbles of anyone in the team so his role was that of a shuttler, I think it's harsh to judge him when he had a defined role. One thing that I noted was that he actually swapped sides each half to be closer to Conte, presumably to receive instructions. Again, we have to keep in mind that this is probably the most difficult fixture for a midfielder to play in, he hasn't played in preseason, and he's coming off knee surgery. Given that, this performance was very encouraging if you ask me.
Re: the second point, I would say young is almost always correlated with better value. In 4 years Matic will be 33, Bakayoko will be 27 and in his prime. If both were to be made available for transfer at that time I would feel comfortable in stating that Bakayoko would fetch the higher fee, and would thus have the higher valuation.
Honestly I don't think we need to buy players for resale or potential ability. It's still very early days for Matic but so far he has brought stability to our midfield and helped provide the balance we've sorely lacked for years.
If he can do that for us consistently over the course of the season his value will be immeasurable. Bakayoko might well turn out to be a very good player in a few years time but I don't rate him very highly at the moment, nor do I think he is the type of player our squad requires.
You are correct, the plan was to ease Bakayoko in more gradually. Honestly though Spurs away is a trial by fire for any midfielder in terms of pressure and time on the ball (let alone a partially fit one) and given that I'm thrilled with his performance.
I can appreciate your sentiment but I would respectfully disagree personally, especially as I believe Bakayoko is a better fit for the system Chelsea have been playing. I would have preferred to sell Matic to Juventus as he isn't some sort of useless Trojan horse regrettably, but I think Bakayoko works better in a system with 3 centre halves and allows us to play with 3 central midfielders potentially as an interesting tactical wrinkle.
This is fair. Perhaps it's a consequence of us building a stadium (or maybe Roman's latest divorce) but it seems the boss is somewhat reluctant to splash the cash to the extent that he did in the past. After all, we are sitting on a considerable transfer surplus from the Oscar deal.
What I would say also though is that I'm not sure why Bakayoko is getting so poorly rated on the Caf at the moment. This isn't a critique of you personally, @CM10 , it's just a bit odd to me. I think the CL semi tie last season against Juve is sticking out a bit in people's minds-yes he wasn't influential in those matches, but a big part of that was because Allegri specifically designed his gameplan to bypass Monaco's midfield and play through the wings.
This is a rather strange point to make given neither you nor us need profits from player sales to sustain our business model.
The aim is to win. If Utd wins 2 league title in those 4 years and Chelsea none, surely the trade off would not be in your favour, no matter how much younger Bakayoko is?
I don't much care for the dick waving competition, lest you misunderstand.
Yep, I'm not judging Bakayoko one way or the other based on the Spurs game. I'd actually wait atleast half a season if not more. My comment was more about what I've seen of him till date.
Yes, he could turn out to be a good fit for your current system. I do think Matic is a tad wasted when the team is playing 3 CBs anyways but Bakayoko is far from a guarantee himself especially as I don't think he's that good.
No that's a fair point. I guess what I was trying to (poorly) communicate was that for once it seems as if Chelsea are actually prioritising medium to long term potential, in particular for the system of a specific manager's tactics.
I'd be quite happy personally with you winning 2 leagues in the next 4 if we win one of the other 2 (making it 2-2 over the past 5 years) as long as we build a sustainable core of players, keep Conte around, and develop youth.
Fair enough! I definitely agree that Bakayoko is by no means a guarantee to succeed, though to be fair Pogba had a far less qualified CV when Conte got his hands on him. Bakayoko is much less skilled on the ball and is less technical but he is probably more powerful and I don't think the comparison is that outrageous.
I'm not saying that Bakayoko will ever be as good as Pogba but I think he's in an environment where he'll have a very good chance to unlock his potential. I'm optimistic personally-for me he was arguably Monaco's most influential player last year. Just to clarify, when I say influential, I mean that when he was at his best Monaco were truly unstoppable. It'll be down to Conte to get him performing at that level consistently.
Moses attempting 18 passes has nothing to do with my point as he is wingback. Bakayoko is a CM who attempted lowest passes on the field, that's a poor stat whatever your excuses might be. Also he didn't attemp most dribbles, he attempted 2 and completed 1. Kante attempted 4 and completed 2. Moses attempted and completed 3. He didn't have define role, it's just you are looking for one to excuse his poor performance. It's his first game for Chelsea and had no preseason, I know but that doesn't make poor performance any better. It's like player is written off either.
No player attempted less passes than Bakayoko and only Morata had worse pass completion percentage. Not sure how that is even remotely good performance.
Re Matic, firstly we don't care about resale value, that's something selling club's mentality. Also I don't rate Bakayoko as highly as some Chelsea fans. The way you see Value might be different from how I see, I don't see "Value" based on resale value, I see it based on what they bring to the team and how much they will help team in winning titles.
Conte and Chelsea fans are surely trying to make the best of an underwhelming transfer window but truth is their squad is thinner and the newcomers are actually a downgrade. Knowing how Conte reacts physically and mentally to losing games, the conclusion is written on the wall imho. Chelsea will move on quickly, though. Not sure about Conte, big jobs are a limited number and even less the truly big ones. PSG to his rescue?
Like I said, I don't think it was a brilliant performance, I'd give him a 6/10. I just think there were encouraging signs given that he lasted 90 minutes, looked comfortable in the team, and seemed to fill his role well. I'm not sure where you're finding your stats but from what I can see he attempted 4, completed 1, and was fouled twice.
I also think Bakayoko brings more tactical flexibility and is a better fit for the side than Matic is. The argument re: future value was solely in terms of "even if you think Matic is better now, surely he isn't better in 4 years". I personally don't think he is better for Chelsea now, even if he still has a lot to offer.
PSG's aim is to win the CL or push hard for it. Unless Conte would do some remarkable thing this season in CL, I doubt PSG would make an approach.
Chelsea fans standards sure have fallen down if their central midfielder with a passing success of 62.5% is being heralded as a good performance.
He also only attempted 16 passes. Jesus.
He also only attempted 16 passes. Jesus.
Objectively it wasn't a great performance but given the nature of the opponent and the fact that it was his first game with a new club having not had a preseason, being half fit, and coming off knee surgery it's encouraging.
Spurs are the hardest team in the league for a midfielder to play against given how quickly they press and the physicality they have in the midfield zone, so the fact that Bakayoko didn't look out of his depth can only be a good thing given the context. As I said before I'd give him a 6/10; hardly a world-beating showing but the fact that he lasted for 90 minutes is pretty ridiculous and bodes well going forward.
6/10, standards must be very low if you think that's 6/10. Looks like you are just looking for reasons to praise his performance when he was poor.
I took stats from Squawka.
Rest of your posts is full of assumptions and looking to big up a player for the sake of it.
It's Spurs, not Barca at their peak or Madrid, Bayern. It's Spurs.
Fair enough mate. No offense but I really think you are really underestimating how difficult Spurs are to play against right now as a midfielder; there was zero time for anyone in the middle of the park at all today on the ball. For me Spurs are in the upper echelon of pressing teams. Madrid are obviously in a class of their own but I would probably put Spurs in the next tier along with teams like Dortmund and Liverpool.
Some decent performances against relegation candidates and now Matic is heralded as prime Viera. His weaknesses will become evident soon enough once United come up against decent teams -- and for whatever reason, Matic's performances tend to wane after January. @TheReligion
Care to point out those weaknesses?
Maybe it's a mental thing or just fatigue? I'm not sure, other fans could point it out. But 15,16 (could probably exclude this season), and 17 season, this was a trend.
When he's pressed he does poorly as he's extremely one footed. It's less of an issue at United since he can sit deeper, but at Chelsea in a 3 CB system where he had to advance more he would often struggle to receive the ball, rotate his body, and circulate it quickly. When he's positioned deeper, he can pivot more easily and distribute the ball more quickly.
How did your first match against a relegation candidate go again?
The weakness is that now he's an United player so Chelsea fans will look to exaggerate his weaknesses just like they're glorifying a midfielders performance who completed 10 out of the 16 passes in midfield.
He was our MOTM in super cup match against one of the best midfield in world.
I'm not underestimating Spurs, it's just that you are overrating Bakayoko's performance because it was against Spurs.
I mean I don't think I've said anything outrageous thus far. If you'd like more context for my ratings I'd give Matic a 9/10 against West Ham and an 8.5 against Swansea. I certainly wouldn't argue that he hasn't been brilliant thus far. I think though that you'd be hard pressed (pun intended) to argue that either of those teams exerted any sort of pressure in the midfield zone, which is where he noticeably struggled last season, which is the crux of my argument.
That's a very distinct possibility. I'd argue that Wanyama-Dembele-Dier is probably one of the 5 most unpleasant midfields to play against in Europe, so as Bakayoko played the full 90, competed physically, and was rushed back after knee surgery I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to arbitrary ratings on the internet.
Glad you're man enough to admit it!
But in all seriousness, would you rather have Matic or Bakayoko for the next 5 years? Perhaps yes, Matic will be better this season. But Bakayoko cost the same amount, is on a lower salary, is 6 years younger, and I'd argue allows for more tactical flexibility.
It is hard to believe that Chelsea would purchase a player specifically for a manager's system with the long term implications in mind, but maybe this is a case of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.
Bakayoko is a very young player after 1-2 good seasons at Monaco, you cannot be certain how he will pan out as a signing. Yes, he could be very good for you but he could also be mediocre and end up getting sold to Stoke or West Ham two years down the line. Matic is a much more of a sure thing and is probably going to be the better of the two for the next three seasons. 28 is not the age at which midfielders decline, he'll comfortably have another 4-5 years at a very similar level to what we are seeing now.
You can give benefit of doubt, it's a wise thing to do but that doesn't mean praising him for "That" performance. Obviously he will come good as he is good enough player.
Wanyama, Dier and Dembele might be unpleasant to play against if your intention is to attack them as they'll leave you very little space but offensively they really are not all that. Dembele is the best of the bunch by a large margin but Dier and Wanyama are really not that good going forward. For a defensive midfielder it's more important to defend, of course.
I think you're talking only about last season starting in the period when manager started to figure out how Chelsea work: hard press Matic (and of cours Hazard) which means Kante would be the sole distributor from midfield. This exposed Kante weakness.
Matic was initially used by Conte higher than Kante. Matic had less problem than Kante when both were in this counter productive situation. Matic has more skill and composure on ball and could make something out, while Kante ain't impressive (has been the case so far this season in this deeper role). Matic is far from a sit deep player. He is quite more mobile for his peer the like of Carrick, Xabi Alonso... if anything, the problem is stemmed from the fact that Matic is required to stay more static to keep the team shape as there were too many robust players around him in Chelsea system.
B'yoko lost the ball practically every time he got it, how anyone can dress it up as a good performance is beyond me. Can't judge him yet though, first game in a new league, I'd give him time to settle