Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread

sunama said:
It was?
So, why did he start off at a blistering pace - MOTM performances.

Or you are saying that as the season progressed, he got weaker?
Or as the season progressed, our rivals became physically stronger?
Or maybe he got tired, from sitting on the bench all the time?

Sorry buddy, but I don't buy that. Di Maria was desperate for game time (not bench time). LVG's priority was to concede zero goals, not scoring goals and ADM is a luxury player who is there to create/score goals - not defend. He was our most prolific attacker last season. Had he stayed this season, with all the demands to ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, the press/fans would've demanded that Di Maria play every game. Oh and BTW, Di Maria, a player who is fast, creative, a Galactico is exactly the sort of player we need right now (and is the sort of player LVG said he is looking for, but can't buy).

As you stated, Di Maria is a great player. And in my book if he is good enough for Madrid and PSG (both teams are light years ahead of us in terms of on-pitch performance), then he is good enough for MUFC.
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He hardly got benched. He played whenever he was fit. It was only after he got a red card against arsenal was he benched and by then Young played much better for the team than Di Maria ever did. He was injured a lot too
 
gerdm07 said:
I agree ADM's form went in the toilet after a few months into the season. He started brilliantly and then started fading. The physical nature of the Epl no doubt was a factor. However, it's the managers job to keep players like this happy and us them in a manner most beneficial to the team. Again, I ask you where does an ADM play in a 3-5-2 when the manager wants a more defensive lineup? Wing back? Inside mid? Forward? I know he played inside mid at times with Madrid but their attacking style is light years different than ours. He is best on the touchline. My point is LvG stuck with the 3-5-2 way too long (remember we started playing decent when we went 4-1-4-1) last season and it was to the detriment of ADM more than anyone else. That's on the manager. Is their any team on the planet who could not use the talents of ADM? Apparently one, MU.
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I don't think using him at wing back would have gone gone well but you'd expect him to shine in a central role, where he tasked be a driving force with the ball to feet. The only problem being he kept losing possession instead of hanging unto when dribbling.
I personally don't blame either of them, circumstances at the start of the season dictated how the team was set up and his late arrival did not allow for much manoeuvre. All through that season I felt LVG was building him up for the second season but hey that's me and ADM did not think the same, or else he wouldnt have forced a move at a time when the manager kept insisting he needs for the upcoming season.
 
prath92 said:
He hardly got benched. He played whenever he was fit. It was only after he got a red card against arsenal was he benched and by then Young played much better for the team than Di Maria ever did. He was injured a lot too
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I don't think people realised this or choose to ignore what actually happened. In my opinion the team suffered or struggled with formations because LVG was trying to fit Falcao, RVP, Rooney, Mata and ADM in an 11.
Most teams only use 3 such players at a time.
 
Klose struggled under LVG and found his instructions limiting and counter-intuitive. He didn't get the philosophy. At times we look as though many of our players suffer from the same. Which is presumably what JPR meant.
 
Santiago_KinderBueno said:
I didn't understand it - thats why im asking.
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Klose said that he couldn't see on the field what LVG expected from him and therefore couldn't execute the patterns briefed by Van gaal. I think that most of our players are in that situation they just don't see on the field what Van gaal explains them on the training ground.
After a few weeks of preseason Guardiola declared that the Bayern's player where the smartest player he coached, he was amazed by their ability to understand and replicate his visions.
All that make me think that Van gaal inherated gifted players at Bayern and he was able to teach them his football without any difficulties, but at United he has a group of Kloses, players who have been developed differently and are receptive to an other type of teaching, but Van gaal is still trying to force his style on the players.

Since I already know that some people will attack the players, this is what an NFL coach think about the question:

Coach Sparano: My philosophy on coaching is that you teach first. I think that's important. There's a difference between teaching and telling. Some people tell and I like to teach. I think that there's a lot of ways to teach, every kid learns differently. I learned that from being a head coach, when you're in charge of sometimes 90 players, 80 players, when you start training camp, and 20 coaches and a support staff, people hear things differently, people learn differently. Teach it first, make sure you're not stuck on one teaching pattern, I think that's important.
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sunama said:
Its strange that most people had lost faith in Moyes by this point.
Yet many people still cling onto LVG.
Perhaps because our standards have fallen, where losing and drawing is acceptable. In Moyes' time, losing and drawing were not acceptable.

Myself, I realised when we lost to Middlesborough, Norwich and Bournemouth that to beat these minnows, LVG would need Messi (or similar).
In effect, LVG reduces the ability of our players.
I have also players like Di Maria and even Memphis arrive at MUFC. They play well immediately. And the more he is under LVG's influence, the worse he gets. A season later, that decent player struggles to score a goal.
The one thing LVG seems good at is defence. When it comes to attack, unless we have Messi (or similar), we will always struggle to score more than 1 goal/game.
Personally, I think LVGs methods are about 15 years out of date and he needs to retire asap.
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You are comping oranges and apples.

Moyes took over a stable squad that had just walked the league. He chose to completely change the backroom staff and had no clear vision or plan. The guys who were one year passing to each other for fun, could not even string a sequence of more than 3 passes together. There was no focus on youth, and no consistent plan or style.

LVG, rightly or wrongly, changed 5 or 6 players in the first year, and then another 5 the next year. He clearly has a vision, but it takes time to execute the strategy that will realize it. He has a clear style, whether that is liked or not, and has not been focused just on the finished product.

I think in comparison Moyes has got off lightly compared to the media and social attacks that LVG has put up with.
 
DocRockter said:
Not the managers fault we have a hospital full of defenders..
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It is the manager's fault that we look like shit after spending hundreds of millions of pounds and had more than a season and a half to build a team with these funds. Failing away against Sunderland. Jesus.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
It is the manager's fault that we look like shit after spending hundreds of millions of pounds and had more than a season and a half to build a team with these funds. Failing away against Sunderland. Jesus.
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This is not a Sunday League like in Spain or Italy, you have to fight in every game.. Also, those "hundreds of millions" have been earned and spend during a long period(from Rooney and Carrick to Martial co.)
 
This just in... There IS NO PHILOSOPHY. There never has been.
This thread is paramount to wondering when you're getting the return on your investment into that Nigerian stock opportunity via email in 1999.
We've all been had by square head, he's just an arrogant Moyes in a Rocky Dennis mask, he's spent a fortune, outcast players and had the audacity to call the u-21 fans "real fans" because they were "enthusiastic" at a 7-0 win.

I hope an angry, Simpson-esque, pitchfork & flaming torch-laden lynchmob run him out of town before sundown!
 
MrPooni said:
You'd think that would encourage us to take the game to the worst defence in the league but here we are.
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Aporkalypse said:
So we should probably look to score a few goals in that case yeah?
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They you might wanna share the blame on the players and not the management.. We currently have a 42m guy playing without the need to defend and shooting like Shinji Kagawa.
 
Nothing but a serious case of delusion or of top redism( United are special, we dont fire managers) would keep anyone on Van Gaal side.

He's just as bad as Moyes. At least Moyes had no experience of the big time and can point to that as a reason to why he was terrible.
 
I have as much faith in the philosophy and our "captain" Just hope that we will be better with new manager and maybe use better players than Lingard and Rooney.
 
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
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An intelligent manager wouldn't be as rigid. Basically, you play to the players strengths and not try to implement a tired old philosophy in a new league and players who have been coached differently throughout their careers.
 
If you want the possession football to work you'd need to coach the players from academy upwards (Barca).
 
Sultan said:
An intelligent manager wouldn't be as rigid. Basically, you play to the players strengths and not try to implement a tired old philosophy in a new league and players who have been coached differently throughout their careers.
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Spot on!!!!!
 
Sultan said:
If you want the possession football to work you'd need to coach the players from academy upwards (Barca).
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I understand where you are coming from but its not entirely true. The bit thats missing is that it is possible to get a team thats played a different style to play possession football but it takes time to develop. The problem for us is that LVG wont/doesnt have enough time to get it to work and also LVG's version of possession football is quite a bit different to Peps version.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
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So the philosophy is basically, already having a great group of footballers who can paper over Van Gaal's shit brand of football and the shit players he will purchase himself?
 
Sultan said:
An intelligent manager wouldn't be as rigid. Basically, you play to the players strengths and not try to implement a tired old philosophy in a new league and players who have been coached differently throughout their careers.
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exactly. Get the best out of your players, not turn them into poor versions of something else. Many players have regressed under him
 
The problem with believing in the "philosophy" is that there isn't one. Our tactics and system change drastically quite often, what each players is being asked to do changes on a seemingly random basis and Van Gaal himself hasn't even mentioned the word philosophy since feck knows when.

What is this philosophy that sometimes requires possession over alll else but then the next minute involves punting the balll to Fellaini at all costs, and then the next minute Fellaini is in the team to pass the ball from midfield?

I could accept some kind of weird stubborn belief in a method or philosophy that completely ignores the strength of the players, if there was at least some consistency as to what that method is, but we change what we're doing alll the bloody time and yet STILL refuse to play to our strengths. That makes no sense on even a stupid level of logic. It is just random blind idiocy. Like trying to punch a fly in the dark with your eyes closed
 
Skills said:
So the philosophy is basically, already having a great group of footballers who can paper over Van Gaal's shit brand of football and the shit players he will purchase himself?
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He is in such a hurry to absolve Van Gaal of any blame that such things fly over his head.

It reminds me of earlier in the season when some of Van Gaal's worshippers were claiming that the reason we were doing so poorly was because we didnt have a Neymar or Muller in our team. Well, the players could argue that they would be doing better with a proper manager (say someone like Sir Alex)

With every passing week of abject failure, the excuses given for why Van Gaal is failing gets more bizarre. But its never his fault.
 
K2K said:
He is in such a hurry to absolve Van Gaal of any blame that such things fly over his head.

It reminds me of earlier in the season when some of Van Gaal's worshippers were claiming that the reason we were doing so poorly was because we didnt have a Neymar or Muller in our team. Well, the players could argue that they would be doing better with a proper manager (say someone like Sir Alex)

With every passing week of abject failure, the excuses given for why Van Gaal is failing gets more bizarre. But its never his fault.
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The philosophy is sound, England is too humid for it to work, or something. :mad:
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
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This post is crazy.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
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Not properly assessing your strenght and weaknesses is the basic error a manager can make.

Anyone can take his phylosophy and instill it, but knowing how to adapt along the way is what separates genious and charlatans

He's not a charlatan, but he's too stubborn to learn new things and accept that either we're not ready for the philosophy or the bpl is too strong for the phylosophy
 
I'm probably one of the few still standing but at this point, am done with him. No reason why we shouldn't make top four. No reason or excuse at all.
 
Sky1981 said:
Not properly assessing your strenght and weaknesses is the basic error a manager can make.

Anyone can take his phylosophy and instill it, but knowing how to adapt along the way is what separates genious and charlatans

He's not a charlatan, but he's too stubborn to learn new things and accept that either we're not ready for the philosophy or the bpl is too strong for the phylosophy
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I couldn't have said it better but I'll go even further as saying he's become a charlatan. He might have done some overrated good work at his previous jobs but at Utd he's been nothing but a joke and a showoff.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
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If your system needs better players than your opponent in order to win then it isn't a very good system.
 
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