What the hell is that for a formation? I think you need a refund.
There's nothing wrong with it....
Should we change to a 4-3-3 if we get Di Maria?
- Thread starter DeMono
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
There's nothing wrong with it....
Definitely.
I don't think the 3 at the back will work in the PL. van Gaal is hugely successful playing the 4-3-3, he should stick with it. Even if it means dropping my favorite player, Mata.
Ideally, one of RvP or Rooney gets dropped. Rooney is captain, Robin is LvG's baby boy. It's a tough call who to drop.
Would love a team with Mata in the number 10 role, and Januzaj and di Maria on the wings. Ouch!
I don't think the 3 at the back will work in the PL. van Gaal is hugely successful playing the 4-3-3, he should stick with it. Even if it means dropping my favorite player, Mata.
Ideally, one of RvP or Rooney gets dropped. Rooney is captain, Robin is LvG's baby boy. It's a tough call who to drop.
Would love a team with Mata in the number 10 role, and Januzaj and di Maria on the wings. Ouch!
Absolutely, given the players we have it would make sense too, as it would give the entire team a much better balance.
RVP would be dropped in favour of Rooney, as LVG said his captain always plays.
Plus considering RVP's playing style, depending on injuries, he can play until his mid 30's at a fairly consistent level IMO.
He won't go back to his 11/12 +12/13 form however, but he could still get 15+ goals a season for the next 3 years.
RVP would be dropped in favour of Rooney, as LVG said his captain always plays.
Plus considering RVP's playing style, depending on injuries, he can play until his mid 30's at a fairly consistent level IMO.
He won't go back to his 11/12 +12/13 form however, but he could still get 15+ goals a season for the next 3 years.
I thought one of the main criticism's aimed at Moyes, he never had the balls to drop one of the big name players, well if VG is using 352 to accommodate rooney and RVP, then I really am raising an eyebrow on VG's decision making. The whole point of VG is too make the big decisions to give united the balance. Apart from liverpool and man city to an extent, none of the big teams play with 2 strikers, and it worked for liverpool because sturridge and suarez were quick and mobile.
The whole reason why top sides play with a number 10, is because they have no plans to play with 2 strikers, real madrid barcelona arsenal do not play with 2 strikers, Real play with ronaldo bale and benzema, with cisco and now Rodriguez playing off benzema. So if we want to make sure we get the best out of mata, I do think di maria janazaj and rooney should be used in a 4231 system, the squad is built for that system. And the big problem with united's problems is rooney and RVP, to be honest rooney last summer, and we should have gone and promoted welbeck properly has RVP's backup in this 4231 system. Now we are stuck with 2 number 9 strikers who both like to lead the line, and none of them have pace
So reality, to fit a number 10 into the starting 11, a striker must be sacrificed for that number 10 to thrive, or it is a waisted position
I agree with this team. Rooney can compete with Mata and RvP for both positions, all 3 will get decent playing time.
Assuming we sign a decent defensive minded CM (if we don’t we’re fecked anyway):
----------CM----------
---Herrera---Di Maria---
Januzaj - RVP/Rooney - Welbeck
That's a proper 4-3-3 which can revert into 4-2-3-1 easily. Second option:
----------CM---------
Herrera---------Di Maria
----------Mata-----------
Rooney/RVP---Welbeck/Januzaj
Don't even think about putting Mata, RVP and Rooney on the pitch at the same time until we solve our midfield issues. Welbeck and Januzaj have to be more involved, possibly at the cost of that trio. Di Maria can play both in (three man) midfield and on the wing, so no problem with him.
----------CM----------
---Herrera---Di Maria---
Januzaj - RVP/Rooney - Welbeck
That's a proper 4-3-3 which can revert into 4-2-3-1 easily. Second option:
----------CM---------
Herrera---------Di Maria
----------Mata-----------
Rooney/RVP---Welbeck/Januzaj
Don't even think about putting Mata, RVP and Rooney on the pitch at the same time until we solve our midfield issues. Welbeck and Januzaj have to be more involved, possibly at the cost of that trio. Di Maria can play both in (three man) midfield and on the wing, so no problem with him.
The post I was responding to cited counter attacking football as strategy that side could use.
Yes there's more ways to score than just on the counter but our front 3 aren't really capable together since none of them have any pace or the ability to beat a man.
I think RVP or rooney needs to be dropped so the team becomes balanced, mata scores us goals and assists, but he needs wingers for him to thrive, this idea the system we currently using helps mata, which is a myth. What helps mata is players who can run at defenders, and di maria and janazaj fit the way mata can be used. Drop RVP mata will score us the goals anyway, so it defeats the purpose playing 352, rooney and RVP are the problem
I like this a lot.
VG disagrees, seems like he has got to play rooney and RVP
He is giving it a try, IMO that is the right thing to do. Plus, they only played like 70 minutes together so it's too early to get on his back just because he wants to try it.
Definitely.
De Gea
Jones - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Vidal
Januzaj - Rooney - Di Maria
Amos - Smalling - Rafael - Cleverley - Mata - Welbeck - Van Persie
Jones - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Vidal
Januzaj - Rooney - Di Maria
Amos - Smalling - Rafael - Cleverley - Mata - Welbeck - Van Persie
Last season these 2 did not work, one of the 2 has to be dropped. One of the biggest criticisms aimed at Moyes, he was too afraid to drop big name stars, and tried to accommodate has many players has possible. Rooney and RVP are both number 9's, and if we have mata, why do we need to play all 3? mata can easily bag 15 to 20 goals, and if di maria is officially signed it makes no sense to play RVP and Rooney. It is obvious the best way too get the best out of mata, it is mata playing off rooney or RVP, with Di Maria and janazaj either side of mata
I would have moved rooney on, and used welbeck or RVP has the main vocal point in that 433/4231 system
I understand your point and I've been talking about this a long time ago (that we don't need to play all of them at the same time) but it's understandable van Gaal is trying this in a different system.
A midfield diamond would be great
Carrick- Plays a role similar to what Busquets does for Barca. Effectively sits back and screens the defence, while his prime responsibility possesion-wise is to recycle and retain the ball, his passing range allows him to start off promising attacks whenever he sees fit. I know he is 32 and coming back from an injury but he is a player in the mould of Pirlo, Busquets Scholes and Alonso who rather depend on their technical qualities and intelligence rather than their physical attributes. Whilst he could be overrun if not provided ample support like last season, that won't be the case with Di Maria and Herrera in front of him. These two little buggers run non-stop and provide the athletic support that relieves Carrick of his defensive burden to a large extent and allows him to flourish in a deeper role. He may not be a midfield terrier but his intelligent positioning and reading of the game means he would rather be looking at intercepting the ball and stopping the attacks before they take shape whilst leaving the vigorous closing down and tackling to the much energetic Herrera and Di Maria to a certain extent.
Herrera- Full of energy and is a willing runner who is qually adept at defensive and offensive contributions. His workrate, tenacity and desire is phenomenal while his touch, link-up play and incisive passing heavily contributes to the drive and tempo of the team's offensive game. He is like midfield terrier with his closing down and tackling who can also significantly contribute offensively and is perfect at playing this role. His mobility means he can also venture out to the right flank when necessary to provide ample width and support for Rafael as well. He will be the more defensive relative to Di Maria in this formation, holding the fort when Di Maria rampages forward so as not to get caught out by opposition's counter attacks. He will naturally be more adventurous in games in which we dominate possession.
Di Maria- Somewhat similar to Herrera but is more cultured technically and offensively whilst being less refined defensively. He would be tasked with attacking the left hand channel whenever he gets the opportunity, similar to how he did with Real Madrid. He would also be tasked with providing much needed pace, drive and verve to our rather static attacking play with our three forwards requiring runners/link-up play to truly function as a forward line. Herrera would also provide forward runs when necessary but he will naturally be slightly more refrained with his forward runs to provide Di Maria with the necessary freedom to excel.
Rafael & Shaw- These guys have all the tools necessary to become excellent wing-backs and will be crucial in this formation to providing the width and stretching of play. Rafael is truly adventurous offensively and always looks to burst forward to support whenever he can. He can link-up well with forwards and provide excellent width as well. Herrera will venture to the right flank whenver possible to cover for Rafael or to provide support for him as we. Same goes for Di Maria and Shaw as well. He is not so solid defensively and can rather be rash but with experience he can improve and will only become better. Shaw always looks to provide an outlet when attacking and looks to carry the ball forward whenever he can, but he is not great offensively and has to improve his game in this regard. He has looked rather tentative and reserved in pre-season but he has all the tools necessary to become an excellent attacking wing-back. However, he is very good defensively and is also very consistent which would naturally allow him to focus on developing the attacking aspect of his game faster as he has the defensive fundamentals for a full back.
Forwards- I don't need to say much about the forwards, they are all quality players who just need good service from the deep. Not only that, they also need willing runners and link-up play to fully utilize their games to their fullest capabilities. These 3 players are not great when it comes to pace, dribbling or stretching of defences and thus are rather predictable when receiving square, short passes in crowded areas. They won't receive a routine pass and dribble pass 4 players and put in the top corner or pluck out a miraculous pass from out of nowhere. Whenever they receive the ball, opponents tend to press them in the knowledge that they are incapable of dribbling and this results in them just passing backwards. With the likes of Herrera, Di Maria, Rafael and Shaw in the team they will have what they need to play the game their way and would truly excel in doing so.
DDG
Rafael-Evans-Rojo-Shaw
Carrick
Herrera Di Maria
Mata
Rooney Van Perise
This would be perfect as it is a balanced team whilst solving the fitting in the best players conundrum. The problem with a midfield diamond is that it can be too narrow and if the opposition floods the middle, it can stifle the team. This is where Herrera and Di Maria come in. Rafael-Evans-Rojo-Shaw
Carrick
Herrera Di Maria
Mata
Rooney Van Perise
Carrick- Plays a role similar to what Busquets does for Barca. Effectively sits back and screens the defence, while his prime responsibility possesion-wise is to recycle and retain the ball, his passing range allows him to start off promising attacks whenever he sees fit. I know he is 32 and coming back from an injury but he is a player in the mould of Pirlo, Busquets Scholes and Alonso who rather depend on their technical qualities and intelligence rather than their physical attributes. Whilst he could be overrun if not provided ample support like last season, that won't be the case with Di Maria and Herrera in front of him. These two little buggers run non-stop and provide the athletic support that relieves Carrick of his defensive burden to a large extent and allows him to flourish in a deeper role. He may not be a midfield terrier but his intelligent positioning and reading of the game means he would rather be looking at intercepting the ball and stopping the attacks before they take shape whilst leaving the vigorous closing down and tackling to the much energetic Herrera and Di Maria to a certain extent.
Herrera- Full of energy and is a willing runner who is qually adept at defensive and offensive contributions. His workrate, tenacity and desire is phenomenal while his touch, link-up play and incisive passing heavily contributes to the drive and tempo of the team's offensive game. He is like midfield terrier with his closing down and tackling who can also significantly contribute offensively and is perfect at playing this role. His mobility means he can also venture out to the right flank when necessary to provide ample width and support for Rafael as well. He will be the more defensive relative to Di Maria in this formation, holding the fort when Di Maria rampages forward so as not to get caught out by opposition's counter attacks. He will naturally be more adventurous in games in which we dominate possession.
Di Maria- Somewhat similar to Herrera but is more cultured technically and offensively whilst being less refined defensively. He would be tasked with attacking the left hand channel whenever he gets the opportunity, similar to how he did with Real Madrid. He would also be tasked with providing much needed pace, drive and verve to our rather static attacking play with our three forwards requiring runners/link-up play to truly function as a forward line. Herrera would also provide forward runs when necessary but he will naturally be slightly more refrained with his forward runs to provide Di Maria with the necessary freedom to excel.
Rafael & Shaw- These guys have all the tools necessary to become excellent wing-backs and will be crucial in this formation to providing the width and stretching of play. Rafael is truly adventurous offensively and always looks to burst forward to support whenever he can. He can link-up well with forwards and provide excellent width as well. Herrera will venture to the right flank whenver possible to cover for Rafael or to provide support for him as we. Same goes for Di Maria and Shaw as well. He is not so solid defensively and can rather be rash but with experience he can improve and will only become better. Shaw always looks to provide an outlet when attacking and looks to carry the ball forward whenever he can, but he is not great offensively and has to improve his game in this regard. He has looked rather tentative and reserved in pre-season but he has all the tools necessary to become an excellent attacking wing-back. However, he is very good defensively and is also very consistent which would naturally allow him to focus on developing the attacking aspect of his game faster as he has the defensive fundamentals for a full back.
Forwards- I don't need to say much about the forwards, they are all quality players who just need good service from the deep. Not only that, they also need willing runners and link-up play to fully utilize their games to their fullest capabilities. These 3 players are not great when it comes to pace, dribbling or stretching of defences and thus are rather predictable when receiving square, short passes in crowded areas. They won't receive a routine pass and dribble pass 4 players and put in the top corner or pluck out a miraculous pass from out of nowhere. Whenever they receive the ball, opponents tend to press them in the knowledge that they are incapable of dribbling and this results in them just passing backwards. With the likes of Herrera, Di Maria, Rafael and Shaw in the team they will have what they need to play the game their way and would truly excel in doing so.
Di Maria is a game changer. The 3-5-2 could have worked, although there is an argument to be made that it wasn't the most suited formation for our players, but Di Maria changes that.
We now have a world class winger in addition to Januzaj, Welbeck and Valencia. We have pace and trickery out wide and it's no longer a weakness of ours. We're relatively sorted there now.
Now, we should be looking to bring in some central midfielders while switching to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. It makes sense.
We now have a world class winger in addition to Januzaj, Welbeck and Valencia. We have pace and trickery out wide and it's no longer a weakness of ours. We're relatively sorted there now.
Now, we should be looking to bring in some central midfielders while switching to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. It makes sense.
Maybe, but he should be smarter when he is fielding allot of players without any pace, even with names like rooney and RVP without the acceleration to beat a man, or get in-behind teams, its very easy to defend against. Guys like janazaj and welbeck would give us that energy and speed to hurt teams, I just hope the di maria signing sees us revert to 4 at the back, because this system does not work, and if he is going to persist with it for months in advanced, we will see more frustrating results.
He is paid to make the big decisions, that he should know playing 2 very one paced number 9's, is pretty inept from Van Gaal, especially when his number 10 is not exactly the quickest is well
That front three still lacks penetration and pace.
I would like to see Cuadrado brought in..
De Gea
Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Strootman
Januzaj
Cuadrado Rooney Di Maria
I think a replacement for Carrick is so essential at the moment however.Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Strootman
Januzaj
Cuadrado Rooney Di Maria
I understand but I can't see LVG not trying this formation as it allows him to fit in all his best players, which has been a concern of his. Criminal waste of talent if we have one/two of our 3 forwards on the bench. If that doesn't work then I can see him go for Di Maria, Janunzaj flanking Rooney/RVP. However, we don't have enough quality midfielders to play with if we push Di Maria to the forward line. That is why and given Di Maria's unique skillset I think he will be better utlizied in the midfield trio. I also don't think Mata and Rooney are suited to playing in the midfield or a wide forward role.
Agreed, he will try. But it will fail. Di Maria will improve the team, just by being Di Maria.. but the system remains flawed due to the front three.. it won't be effective against good teams, because our big name players are all devoid of pace.
Replace vidal with mata and jones with rafael i think thats going to be our team
Mata doesn't do what is required of a centre midfielder, though. The two 8's ahead of Carrick in my team have to be box to box players, and Mata hasn't got the engine to do so.
Give it time, he'll eventually pick one. You can't play them both in their favoured positions, and Rooney doesn't work well as a 10. On the left he'll have competition from more suitable players.
He used to, but these days Rooney is a pure number 9 same has RVP
Accomodating RVP Mata and Rooney is ridiculous and hopefully that will be the end of it. Let danny januzaj step in and show us some desire
But but... what about redcafe's favourite player, Kagawa?
With our current players and assuming we had no major injuries I want to see this.
---------De Gea--------
Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
-----Carrick--Herrera-----
Di Maria---Mata---Januzaj
-----------RVP-----------
Obviously we all want more signings (Vidal) but I think something like this is a good way to go. Much better than the damn 3-5-2 anyway.
---------De Gea--------
Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
-----Carrick--Herrera-----
Di Maria---Mata---Januzaj
-----------RVP-----------
Obviously we all want more signings (Vidal) but I think something like this is a good way to go. Much better than the damn 3-5-2 anyway.
Can't drop our captain
You don't need your front three to charge forward on a counter, we could easily counter with Di Maria, Rooney and Shaw(or Rafael).
Once the players click, the front triumvirate will be praised to high heavens, I'm sure.
Is there a way we can play Di Maria how he was used at Madrid, while also playing Mata in his favoured position?
Yea 4231
With everyone fit the team could be this
DDG
Rafeal jones rojo shaw
Carrick Herrera
Di Maria mata janazaj
Rooney
A lot of people have been suggesting a 4312:
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Di Maria
Mata
Van Persie - Rooney
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Di Maria
Mata
Van Persie - Rooney
However, there's very little pace in behind with the front three.
I could see us move to a diamond if we get blind/dejong
RvP Rooney
Mata
ADM Herrara
Dejong
Shaw Roja Jones Rafeal
Mata
ADM Herrara
Dejong
Shaw Roja Jones Rafeal
I agree except for one significant difference. Rooney at No 10 instead of Mata.
Like this, not quite Di Maria's best position though he basically played as an advanced CM. But we have a good balance with this team, does mean dropping Rooney or RvP but they just don't play well together.
I think others have already posted it or similar, but I can see our team looking like this:
De Gea
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Carrick
Herrera --- Di Maria
Mata
RVP - Rooney
Subs: Johnstone, Jones, Smalling, Blind, Januzaj, Welbeck, Wilson.
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Carrick
Herrera --- Di Maria
Mata
RVP - Rooney
Subs: Johnstone, Jones, Smalling, Blind, Januzaj, Welbeck, Wilson.
Can see that being used too, though there's no room for Januzaj in this formation unless you put him in Mata's position...
If we stick to 3-4-1-2:
Yes, I would play our new world class winger in midfield. Maybe that's where he's going to be playing anyway.
De Gea
Evans Jones Rojo
Rafael Herrera Di Maria Shaw
Mata
Rooney RVP
Evans Jones Rojo
Rafael Herrera Di Maria Shaw
Mata
Rooney RVP
Yes, I would play our new world class winger in midfield. Maybe that's where he's going to be playing anyway
.Assuming we keep three at the back, how about a sort of 361
Dave
Jones Evans Rojo
Rafael Herrera Carrick AdM Shaw
Mata
Rooney
Jones Evans Rojo
Rafael Herrera Carrick AdM Shaw
Mata
Rooney