India vs England

zing

Zingle balls
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
14,372
4 tests

And I don't know how many ODIs/T20s

What do you guys reckon?

I think we're shite and England will never get a better chance to win a series in India.

Most ordinary bowling attack we've had in a long time and that's saying something when it comes to India.

When's the Indian squad being named?

I would like to see Sehwag, Rahane, Pujara, Sachin, Kohli, Rohit as the top 6.

We're more likely to see Gambhir at the top and Yuvraj or Raina at 6, though.
 
Our openers are out of form, Sachin is finally showing his age, our bowling is ridiculously poor, combine all that with a defensive captain and it's a horrible combination.

I'm not kidding but England will never ever get a better chance to win in India.
 
Anderson and Broad bowled wonderfully against Pakistan earlier this year.

If they replicate that form, this series is there for the taking.

They have gone off the boil recently, though. Broad seems to have dropped in speed and Anderson's just not got the rhythm.

Strauss should've stuck around. India specialize in making batsmen find form over the last 18 months.

I swear, half the batsmen with good numbers over the last 2 years seem to have made a name by plundering our bowlers.

Cook, Trott, Ponting, Clarke, Warner have been made to look much better than they are because of huge numbers against ordinary bowling.

People need to start looking at runs made against us like how runs against Bangladesh or Zimbabwe are perceived.
 
Prepare spin friendly wickets and we'll do them. Think England's batsmen will struggle.
 
KM said:
Our openers are out of form, Sachin is finally showing his age, our bowling is ridiculously poor, combine all that with a defensive captain and it's a horrible combination.

I'm not kidding but England will never ever get a better chance to win in India.
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Sehwag and Gambhir have been given a ridiculously long lease, especially considering the talent waiting in the wings in Rahane and Mukund.

I'm checking on Cricinfo what their last hundreds were.

Gambhir's last hundred was against Bangladesh in Jan 2010, and before that against SL in November 2009.

Sehwag's was in November 2010 against NZ.

What the feck? 2 and 3 years without hundreds.
 
kps88 said:
Prepare spin friendly wickets and we'll do them. Think England's batsmen will struggle.
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We don't really prepare turners..

Just ordinary pitches where the likes of WI and NZ struggle even when it turns a little. Might be enough against England, seeing how they bat against spin..
 
zing said:
Sehwag and Gambhir have been given a ridiculously long lease, especially considering the talent waiting in the wings in Rahane and Mukund.

I'm checking on Cricinfo what their last hundreds were.

Gambhir's last hundred was against Bangladesh in Jan 2010, and before that against SL in November 2009.

Sehwag's was in November 2010 against NZ.

What the feck? 2 and 3 years without hundreds.
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It's fecking ridiculous. Rahane is a great talent, and should've been eased in much earlier.

It's amusing how much our batting lineup relies on Kohli.
 
Sachins form is really, really worrying.
 
4 Tests? Nice. Hopefully the pitches are good all round pitches rather than purely batting friendly or rank turners. As for England's chances, it's true that this is their best chance to win here in ages but I always fancy us to get the job done at home even if we aren't at our best.
 
KM said:
Sachins form is really, really worrying.
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I think it's more a general decline than form. Some of his batting of late has been utterly shoddy. Pushing and prodding, playing down the wrong line and being late due to slow reactions with such consistency is strange for a man of his abilities unless there's a real degradation of the tools he has to work with.

If he struggles in this series, and I can see it happening, I hope he retires. Not that I'm putting it past him to do well.
 
India will win this 4-0 or 3-0. Don't see England getting anything out of the test series. Dhoni has indicated a quite few times now that he wants spin friendly pitches in India and I am sure in order to give it back after the 4-0 drubbing in England the curators and BCCI will oblige.

The Indian bowling is not as bad in spin friendly conditions as some of the posters are mentioning. Ashwin is a quality bowler and Ojha plays his part. Zaheer ain't half bad when the ball is reversing. Yadav or Sharma are a worry but India might be going with 3 spinners.

The English bowling is rank in the sub-continental conditions. Anderson, Broad, Finn and co. are useless when the ball is not swinging or seaming, which it won't be here. Swann is their biggest weapon. Out batters would do fine against that attack. Sehwag and Gambhir are both due and they won't get a better attack to find some form. Pujara and Kohli are both quality. They are the next batting superstars for India in tests no doubt. Dhoni is effective at home. Sachin should really retire. The number 6 spot is a worry as I don't trust Raina in tests and Yuvraj has never cemented a place in that position. Yuvraj is also a fitness concern for me despite is double ton in a domestic match a few days ago. Though if he is fit, I would start him because of his bowling and if decide to go with a 2+2 attack.

India all the way. 4-0 in test. Will win both T-20's and 4-1 in the ODI's.

The important question is by when do you think the English would start bitching and try to find something other than cricket for their impending drubbing ? I say day 3 of the first test is when the excuses would start rolling in.
 
No way are we gonna win 3-0 or 4-0. People are over-rating India. We're shit right now.
 
Ahemdabad, Bombay, Calcutta and Jamtha. At 2 of those 4 venues the ball would turn square by the time day 4 approaches. And we'll surely win at Jamtha.
 
Forevergiggs said:
The English bowling is rank in the sub-continental conditions. Anderson, Broad, Finn and co. are useless when the ball is not swinging or seaming, which it won't be here.
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Absolute tosh.

Unfortunately we are going into this series in our worst form of the last 4/5 years - but as alot of you have said above, so are India to some degree.

It should be tight, and last year i'd of fancied us to win it 3-1, as it is now, i think India will take it by one test...
 
I'm not being a pessimist, but apart from Kohli and Pujara, I don't trust any of our batsmen against quality bowling. I'm sick and tired of Sehwag's rubbish attitude and non form. Gambhir is a hard worker but has been terrible form. Tendulkar looks like age has finally caught upto him. Somehow, I know Yuvraj will be included in the test squad despite doing nothing of nothing in the test match arena since making his test debut. Dhoni gets found out against quality bowling in test match action.

Our spinners Ashwin and Ojha are very good, and will take wickets on Indian Pitches. On the pace bowling front, we'll most likely to endure Ishant's erratic bowling and Zaheer's short spells of quality.

England have a very inexperienced lineup though which can work in our favour.
 
Utd heap said:
Absolute tosh.

Unfortunately we are going into this series in our worst form of the last 4/5 years - but as alot of you have said above, so are India to some degree.

It should be tight, and last year i'd of fancied us to win it 3-1, as it is now, i think India will take it by one test...
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Yea, I don't like the uninformed nonsense about Anderson and Broad doing it only when it's swinging/seaming.

It's like people last watched cricket in 2008 or something.

And Finn's one of the best bowlers I've seen bowl in sub-continent on limited overs pitches in recent years. If he can translate that to test matches, he could be very lethal.

KM, do you really think Ashwin and Ojha are very good? I think Ashwin is a limited bowler, but a very good thinker(when it comes to cricket, in his interviews he comes across as a twat), so may become a better test bowler. But Ojha.. he's very meh.

I hate watching Ojha bowl. I actually hate all left-arm spinners.

And yes, Yuvraj will be there. Our selectors love pandering to the masses and picking 'star' players. Yuvraj fits the commercial bill at the moment.
 
Utd heap said:
Absolute tosh.

Unfortunately we are going into this series in our worst form of the last 4/5 years - but as alot of you have said above, so are India to some degree.

It should be tight, and last year i'd of fancied us to win it 3-1, as it is now, i think India will take it by one test...
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Is it?

James Anderson
Tests Away: 26
Wickets: 85 @36.48, Strike Rate: 65.7

Stuart Broad
Tests Away: 18
Wickets: 46@39.60 Strike Rate: 81.7

Finn
Tests Away: 6
Wickets: 21@34/38, Strike Rate: 56.1

Onions
Tests Away: 3
Wickets: 8 @45.75, SR: 86.2

Monty
Tests Away: 18
Wickets: 47 @44.72, SR: 89.4

Samit Patel and Bresnan are your other options, who are hardly test level bowlers. Also, these are the figures in all tests away, I haven't separated the performances in the sub-continent. Which are likely to to present worse figures.

This England team ain't any different from others that have visited before. The results also won't be much different.
 
Ojha and Ashwin are very good as a combo, IMO. Ojha is a very steady bowler, maintains a consistent line n length whereas Ashwin is more attacking.

In an ideal world, I think this lineup would be our best XI

Rahane
Gambhir
Pujara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Rohit
Dhoni
Ashwin
Zak
Dinda/Yadav
Ojha

I expect Sehwag and Yuvraj in place of Rohit and Rahane.
 
Forevergiggs said:
Is it?

James Anderson
Tests Away: 26
Wickets: 85 @36.48, Strike Rate: 65.7

Stuart Broad
Tests Away: 18
Wickets: 46@39.60 Strike Rate: 81.7

Finn
Tests Away: 6
Wickets: 21@34/38, Strike Rate: 56.1

Onions
Tests Away: 3
Wickets: 8 @45.75, SR: 86.2

Monty
Tests Away: 18
Wickets: 47 @44.72, SR: 89.4

Samit Patel and Bresnan are your other options, who are hardly test level bowlers. Also, these are the figures in all tests away, I haven't separated the performances in the sub-continent. Which are likely to to present worse figures.

This England team ain't any different from others that have visited before. The results also won't be much different.
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James Anderson in 2012

In Asia:

5 tests
18 wickets at average of 24.72


Stuart Broad:

4 tests
15 wickets at 24.7 average

Finn's just played 1 test in the sub-continent and bowled tidily. He was excellent in limited overs.

Your use of numbers is lazy.
 
Using numbers over a sustained period (a larger sample) is lazy or using a smaller sample is lazy?

Not a man of statistics, are you?

Edit: England's record in those 5 test matches you mentioned:

Vs Pak - Played 3 Lost 3
Vs Lanka - Player 2 Won 1 Lost 1

Overall - Played 5 Won 1 Lost 4
 
Forevergiggs said:
Using numbers over a sustained period (a larger sample) is lazy or using a smaller sample is lazy?

Not a man of statistics, are you?

Edit: England's record in those 5 test matches you mentioned:

Vs Pak - Played 3 Lost 3
Vs Lanka - Player 2 Won 1 Lost 1

Overall - Played 5 Won 1 Lost 4
Click to expand...

I have a job that's based on using statistics. If you think numbers by itself speak everything in cricket, you're being very simplistic.

James Anderson and Stuart Broad have bad career averages, but over the last 2-3 years, they've been excellent bowlers. Their performances in the sub-continent over the last 1 year are more relevant to how they've evolved as bowlers. What you've done is diluted that with numbers from 5 years ago -- if you think players don't learn and grow, then I'll leave you to your tools.

James Anderson, for example, averages 30 over his entire career, but for a period of 24 months quite recently, he averages better than Dale Steyn. Is the conclusion that Jimmy Anderson is a much worse bowler than Steyn because of his average of 30(larger sample set) or has performed as well as Steyn in the recent past(smaller sample set)?

And what are you trying to prove with your win/loss numbers? Do their performances become meaningless because England lost most of those matches? England lost those matches because of their batsmen. Do Anderson/Broad's performances become somehow less credible because Strauss got out sweeping Ajmal?
 
zing said:
I have a job that's based on using statistics. If you think numbers by itself speak everything in cricket, you're being very simplistic.
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Oh yeah! I have no doubt that you do a bang up job. Your employer must count his blessings each passing day. ;)

I was using numbers to solidify my point instead of simplifying it.

zing said:
James Anderson and Stuart Broad have bad career averages, but over the last 2-3 years, they've been excellent bowlers. Their performances in the sub-continent over the last 1 year are more relevant to how they've evolved as bowlers. What you've done is diluted that with numbers from 5 years ago -- if you think players don't learn and grow, then I'll leave you to your tools.

James Anderson, for example, averages 30 over his entire career, but for a period of 24 months quite recently, he averages better than Dale Steyn. Is the conclusion that Jimmy Anderson is a much worse bowler than Steyn because of his average of 30(larger sample set) or has performed as well as Steyn in the recent past(smaller sample set)?

And what are you trying to prove with your win/loss numbers? Do their performances become meaningless because England lost most of those matches? England lost those matches because of their batsmen. Do Anderson/Broad's performances become somehow less credible because Strauss got out sweeping Ajmal?
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Did you know that it was a low scoring series on pretty new pitches in the Emirates? The pitches in India are going to be significantly different then those. Those bowling figures are against some pretty mediocre Pakistani batting on uneven pitches. Here in India, it is going to be flat decks or pitches which are going to be dry, slow and low. Not that easy for fast bowlers, especially bowlers whose main weapons are swing and seam. Unlike England, in India they are hardly going to get any movement in the air either.

Praveen Kumar did relatively well in English conditions. He was one of our best bowlers. But I am going to put the same case against him, as he would get slaughtered in Indian conditions. Neither can we use ODI performances as a barometer for Finn. Praveen does well in ODI's here but would anyone ever think about starting him for test matches at home?

In the last two years Jimmy Anderson has played 19 tests at home, 15 of them were against Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri-Lanka, India and the West Indies. 10 tests away, 5 of which were in Australia. Do you think that had anything to do with his better average in the past two years? Him and Broad are better bowlers now, no one is denying that, but India is a whole different ball game.

What I was trying to prove with the win/loss numbers is that their wickets didn't significantly help their team avoid defeat. Which means certain opposition bowlers performed better than them on the same pitches. Anyways, that would be a bit too complicated for you too grasp, so ignore it.

I guess we'll find out who was right in about a month. If India plays to even 80% of their potential they should win this series easily. What worries me is how tired they are going to be after that circus show that is going on in South Africa. Gambhir, Sachin, Zaheer, Ashwin & Dhoni already out might prove a blessing.
 
Forevergiggs said:
Oh yeah! I have no doubt that you do a bang up job. Your employer must count his blessings each passing day. ;)

I was using numbers to solidify my point instead of simplifying it.



Did you know that it was a low scoring series on pretty new pitches in the Emirates? The pitches in India are going to be significantly different then those. Those bowling figures are against some pretty mediocre Pakistani batting on uneven pitches. Here in India, it is going to be flat decks or pitches which are going to be dry, slow and low. Not that easy for fast bowlers, especially bowlers whose main weapons are swing and seam. Unlike England, in India they are hardly going to get any movement in the air either.

Praveen Kumar did relatively well in English conditions. He was one of our best bowlers. But I am going to put the same case against him, as he would get slaughtered in Indian conditions. Neither can we use ODI performances as a barometer for Finn. Praveen does well in ODI's here but would anyone ever think about starting him for test matches at home?

In the last two years Jimmy Anderson has played 19 tests at home, 15 of them were against Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri-Lanka, India and the West Indies. 10 tests away, 5 of which were in Australia. Do you think that had anything to do with his better average in the past two years? Him and Broad are better bowlers now, no one is denying that, but India is a whole different ball game.

What I was trying to prove with the win/loss numbers is that their wickets didn't significantly help their team avoid defeat. Which means certain opposition bowlers performed better than them on the same pitches. Anyways, that would be a bit too complicated for you too grasp, so ignore it.

I guess we'll find out who was right in about a month. If India plays to even 80% of their potential they should win this series easily. What worries me is how tired they are going to be after that circus show that is going on in South Africa. Gambhir, Sachin, Zaheer, Ashwin & Dhoni already out might prove a blessing.
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Solidify your point? How is it solidifying your point if you use statistics over 10 years to prove a point about a bowler's current form? Especially a bowler who is 10x the bowler he was in the earlier part of his career.

Did you go around telling people Zaheer Khan is shit circa 2008-2009 because his career average was 31+? No? Please explain to me why you didn't.

And what on earth is that point about the teams he's played? That's half the team that play test cricket. He's hardly going to play Brazil lead by Carlos Alberto, is he? And you included India(an India with a batting line-up of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, Laxman) like they're a bunch of mugs.

And why is it an inferior achievement if he performed outstandingly in Australia? It doesn't swing in Australia like in England -- the same stick people beat him with not that long ago.

Pakistani bowlers out-performed English bowlers because Pakistani spin bowlers were far more effective against the English batsmen than the other way around. And Praveen Kumar is not going to be effective here because he has no pace, it doesn't swing much and batsmen can knock him around in test cricket -- Finn's ODI success is built on pace. Please stop being so disingenuous and forcing me to reply to baseless shit.

1) Do you actually think Praveen Kumar's lack of selection in Indian conditions with ODI performances as a basis can be fitted to Steven Finn?
2) Do you also think Broad/Anderson's averages versus Pakistan paint a wrong picture because Pakistan bowled better than them? It's pretty much the most written thing of the last 12 months that England capitulate to spin and their loss was largely due to Ajmal and Rehman.

I think I'm wasting my time. You clearly don't watch cricket.

India might beat England, but to say that Anderson and Broad haven't learnt to bowl in different conditions.. laughable.
 
The OP gives no info whatsoever, you lot are too busy working yourselves up into a frenzy, you'll have nothing left for when the action starts. The first Test isn't until 15 November by which time you'll all be spent.

Anyway, here's the schedule:

England in India 2012-13

bcci-cricket-india-logo-300x203.gif
england-cricket-logo90.jpg


October
25 England squad leaves UK
26-28 Training at ICC Global Cricket Academy in Dubai
29 England squad arrives in India (Mumbai)
30-1 Nov v India A, Mumbai (Brabourne) (04:00 GMT)

November
3-5 v Mumbai A, Mumbai (DY Patil Stadium) (04:00 GMT)
8-11 Tour match (opponents TBC), Ahmedabad (SPS Navrangpura) (04:00 GMT)
15-19 1st Test, Ahmedabad (Motera) (04:00 GMT)
23-27 2nd Test, Mumbai (Wankhede Stadium) (04:00 GMT)

December
5-9 3rd Test, Kolkata (03:30 GMT)
13-17 4th Test, Nagpur (04:00 GMT)
20 1st Twenty20 international (d/n), Pune (14:30 GMT)
22 2nd Twenty20 international (d/n), Mumbai (Wankhede Stadium) (14:30 GMT)
23 England squad departs India

January
2 England squad leaves UK
3 England squad arrives in India (Delhi)
6 50-over tour match (d/n), opponents TBC. Delhi (Feroz Shah Kotla)
8 50-over tour match, opponents TBC, Delhi (Harbax Singh Stadium)
11 1st ODI (d/n), Rajkot (09:00 GMT)
15 2nd ODI (d/n), Kochi (09:00 GMT)
19 3rd ODI (d/n), Ranchi (09:00 GMT)
23 4th ODI, Mohali (06:30 GMT)
27 5th ODI, Dharamshala (03:30 GMT)
 
England are going to get thrashed. Its hot and dry season and spinners will come massively into play. Watch almost all batsmen hop around on days 4 and 5.
 
Even though they come back over Christmas, that's a bloody long tour!

England will lose the Tests 3-0 or 3-1. Will be interesting how England line-up with their batting. I hope Bopara is not in the side, he's an arrogant overrated cnut.
 
zing said:
Solidify your point? How is it solidifying your point if you use statistics over 10 years to prove a point about a bowler's current form? Especially a bowler who is 10x the bowler he was in the earlier part of his career.

Did you go around telling people Zaheer Khan is shit circa 2008-2009 because his career average was 31+? No? Please explain to me why you didn't.

And what on earth is that point about the teams he's played? That's half the team that play test cricket. He's hardly going to play Brazil lead by Carlos Alberto, is he? And you included India(an India with a batting line-up of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, Laxman) like they're a bunch of mugs.

And why is it an inferior achievement if he performed outstandingly in Australia? It doesn't swing in Australia like in England -- the same stick people beat him with not that long ago.

Pakistani bowlers out-performed English bowlers because Pakistani spin bowlers were far more effective against the English batsmen than the other way around. And Praveen Kumar is not going to be effective here because he has no pace, it doesn't swing much and batsmen can knock him around in test cricket -- Finn's ODI success is built on pace. Please stop being so disingenuous and forcing me to reply to baseless shit.
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Things taken over a smaller sample can be easily skewed whereas over a longer period will more often than not give you better result. They are not bowlers who have improve "10x" times.That's as preposterous a statement as I have ever heard.

With experience they are better bowlers, no one is denying that, but Indian conditions are very different from anywhere in the world. For a fast bowler, you need express pace like Dale or tremendous accuracy like McGrath to be successful in India as more often than not you are going to get zilch from the wicket. Neither of the English bowlers are masters in those categories.

The points about teams played is relevant because those are the teams that are very suspect against fast bowling. If you read carefully, which you don't, I never denied that they were very good bowlers in conditions which offers assistance to fast bowlers. Combine that with batters who don't like to move their feet and you become lethal.

Inferior achievement? So the wickers in Australia are not conducive to fast bowling? May be you don't watch enough cricket. Also, it was the weakest Australian team in ages and England caught them at the right time.

zing said:
1) Do you actually think Praveen Kumar's lack of selection in Indian conditions with ODI performances as a basis can be fitted to Steven Finn?
2) Do you also think Broad/Anderson's averages versus Pakistan paint a wrong picture because Pakistan bowled better than them? It's pretty much the most written thing of the last 12 months that England capitulate to spin and their loss was largely due to Ajmal and Rehman.

I think I'm wasting my time. You clearly don't watch cricket.

India might beat England, but to say that Anderson and Broad haven't learnt to bowl in different conditions.. laughable.
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(1) Praveen was used as an example of a bowler who does well in ODI's in subcontinental conditions but wouldn't get into the test team. Finn doesn't have pace that is going to trouble batters in Indian conditions in tests. Infact, the likes of Sehwag might like him for the extra-pace and that the ball is going to come easier to the bat.

(2) Go check out Umar Gul's stats and them come talk to me.

I might not watch enough cricket, it is not my favorite sport, but still know more than you ever will. The next two months are going to be a proof of that. India will beat England. There is no doubt.

I'll be back with "I told you so" when the series ends. Bye till then.

Don't forget laughing in the meantime.
 
Forevergiggs said:
Things taken over a smaller sample can be easily skewed whereas over a longer period will more often than not give you better result. They are not bowlers who have improve "10x" times.That's as preposterous a statement as I have ever heard.

With experience they are better bowlers, no one is denying that, but Indian conditions are very different from anywhere in the world. For a fast bowler, you need express pace like Dale or tremendous accuracy like McGrath to be successful in India as more often than not you are going to get zilch from the wicket. Neither of the English bowlers are masters in those categories.

The points about teams played is relevant because those are the teams that are very suspect against fast bowling. If you read carefully, which you don't, I never denied that they were very good bowlers in conditions which offers assistance to fast bowlers. Combine that with batters who don't like to move their feet and you become lethal.

Inferior achievement? So the wickers in Australia are not conducive to fast bowling? May be you don't watch enough cricket. Also, it was the weakest Australian team in ages and England caught them at the right time.



(1) Praveen was used as an example of a bowler who does well in ODI's in subcontinental conditions but wouldn't get into the test team. Finn doesn't have pace that is going to trouble batters in Indian conditions in tests. Infact, the likes of Sehwag might like him for the extra-pace and that the ball is going to come easier to the bat.

(2) Go check out Umar Gul's stats and them come talk to me.

I might not watch enough cricket, it is not my favorite sport, but still know more than you ever will. The next two months are going to be a proof of that. India will beat England. There is no doubt.

I'll be back with "I told you so" when the series ends. Bye till then.

Don't forget laughing in the meantime.
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What a load of shit.
 
Interval Level said:
England are going to get thrashed. Its hot and dry season and spinners will come massively into play. Watch almost all batsmen hop around on days 4 and 5.
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Think so too. We're at home here guys. Against England! We'll beat them, all our out of form batsmen will get one big score each to ensure they can't be dropped. Everyone will be cheery and optimistic again. Then we'll tour SA and it'll be the same old story....
 
Have India A actually not played a spinner for the practice game?

Pretty poor stuff tbh.
 
Yeah, an all pace attack. Not a fan of that decision. Lacks class.
 
Yes, because if there's one thing the BCCI needs, it's more money.
 
kps88 said:
Yes, because if there's one thing the BCCI needs, it's more money.
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well, they aren't a charity, are they?

It's like that everywhere. If Sky want their own commentators on the ground with all the facilities, they need to pay up.
 
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