Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft’s video game console woes

RedKaos said:
wha? I still play my old xbox games on my 360. And I wasn't going to buy a PS3 at £425 with no worthwhile titles.
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Your second sentence is silly. Your original XBox titles are patched, there is no universal BC on XB360, it doesn't work like that.

Not to mention that the original XBox was basically a cut down PC in a console box (you do know why it is call XBox?), the GPU emulation should be quite simple. You want costs down, so you got what the PS3 is now. Software emulation will come. I asked Redlambs a question about this in another thread, but he didn't respond. Universal emulation IMO is pushing it on PS3 without PS2 hardware in it.
 
WeasteDevil said:
Your second sentence is silly. Your original XB360 titles are patched, there is no universal BC on XB360, it doesn't work like that.

Not to mention that the original XBox was basically a cut down PC in a console box (you do know why it is call XBox?), the GPU emulation should be quite simple. You want costs down, so you got what the PS3 is now. Software emulation will come. I asked Redlambs a question about this in another thread, but he didn't respond. Universal emulation IMO is pushing it on PS3 without PS2 hardware in it.
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What question?
 
WeasteDevil said:
That one above.
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Never saw that, but here:


WeasteDevil said:
Here Lambs, you have worked on PS2 haven't you? How difficult would you think it would be for a software emulator to "guess" what the GS is doing when it does multiple passes and thus use a more modern technique? Impossible in a generic sense? Would you have to have some sort of config file to tell the emulator what the game is doing at certain points? Obviously, you can't do a direct emulation of the hardware on RSX because it doesn't have the bandwidth of GS, and Cell only has just under half of the 4MB in the SPU local stores, and they are fragmented.
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It's not impossible, no. However it might need working at on a game by game basis, because of the shear number of ways people were using stuff like the vector units. I'd imagine it would work in a similar way that and emulator like MAME can pretend to be any number of combinations of Arcade hardware.

So for using more modern techniques, I doubt it would be feasible to try to do it in a generic way, but there's certainly could be a case for adding post-processing effects.

I'll have a proper think about it while fishing and try to come up with a good example of what I mean.
 
I've been thinking about it for a long time. I think that you are right, it would need some file on a game by game basis, as the bandwidth simply isn't there to do a direct hardware emulation. I don't think Sony will do it that way, it's either all or nothing, although the possibility of selling PS2 titles on the PSN might turn them in that direction, but no orginal game discs - buy it again (yes I agree, rip off). They either need to emulate the hardware or they need to have data files for the emulator to know what is going on.
 
WeasteDevil said:
I've been thinking about it for a long time. I think that you are right, it would need some file on a game by game basis, as the bandwidth simply isn't there to do a direct hardware emulation. I don't think Sony will do it that way, it's either all or nothing, although the possibility of selling PS2 titles on the PSN might turn them in that direction, but no orginal game discs - buy it again (yes I agree, rip off). They either need to emulate the hardware or they need to have data files for the emulator to know what is going on.
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I might be wrong, but isn't that how they do it on the 360? Pre-translated files that have to be downloaded?

I've never used it myself, nor looked into it, but I'm sure I've heard that.
 
Microsoft fires game test contractor who talked to VentureBeat
Dean Takahashi | September 12th, 2008

Robert Delaware was the only named Microsoft worker (a contract employee) who talked — without permission — to VentureBeat for our story last week on the Xbox 360 defects.

Microsoft had him fired on Wednesday. Delaware worked as a game tester at Microsoft but was employed by the temp agency Excell Data. He reported directly to a Microsoft manager, who told him he was being let go because of the VentureBeat article.

Delaware, a 29-year-old Seattle resident, expects to face civil charges from his former employer VMC (which tests games for Microsoft) and Microsoft as well. He will likely have to hire a lawyer. Microsoft spokesman David Dennis said the company does not talk about personnel issues.

“I don’t regret it,” he said in a phone call on Thursday. “I’ll fight it. If they want to come after me, bring it on.”

Delaware bravely decided to come forward and talk on the record for our story about the many problems associated with the launch of the Xbox 360. He talked to me about how he learned about problems with the hardware while working as a game tester for VMC. He worked there from 2005 to the fall of 2007. He left to join a start-up, Whrrl, and then returned to the game testing job at Excell, working for Microsoft, this summer. During his time at VMC, he saw how Xbox Live updates embedded in retail games could turn working consoles into worthless hulks. I found his remarks to be refreshing and candid.

He later moved to work for Microsoft, testing games for its Bungie studio. Clearly, from a legalistic point of view, Delaware broke company policy and it is the company’s right to fire him (he fully knew the risk he was taking, based on multiple conversations I had with him about using his name).

But this kind of witch hunt mentality is wrong-headed. People like Delaware are more useful hunting down bugs and fixing problems. I think the company really should apply their energy in different directions, like making sure that consumers are treated right. The firing disappoints me, and I wish Delaware well.

Delaware said he got some positive feedback at work about the story. On Friday, he believed a couple of people were arguing about his involvement in our story. But nothing happened until Wednesday, when he talked with his boss and communicated with an HR rep for Excell Data on the phone. The HR rep was the one who told him that he would likely face legal trouble.

When I was thinking about making a difference with our story, this isn’t what I had in mind. But there has been a lot of feedback on my story from angry consumers. Asked if I should write a story about this firing, Delaware said, “Rock and roll. It feels good. It was the moral thing to do.”

Updates on other fallout from our story

Tom Prettyman, a 24-year-old network administrator in Hamilton, N.J., wrote in to tell me that he has gone through 11 failed consoles. The first one broke three days after he bought it in November, 2006. It happened so many times that he bought the extra $60 warranties to get the machines replaced for free early on.

“I want to thank you for writing about this,” he wrote. “Especially in this day and age when investigative journalism seems to have become a thing of the past”

Prettyman wasn’t aware that there was another guy, Justin Lowe, a 22-year-old student in Pembroke Pines, Fla., who also had 11 broken consoles. His twelfth console, sent to him by the advertising team at Microsoft for free, has problems reading game disks.

A few people really didn’t want to hear about the defect problems again. But I heard from a lot of people who believed passionately that telling the story was the right thing to do.

Rob Cassingham, who had seven consoles break on him (as we noted in the story), wrote in from Moab, Utah, to tell us that he has now had eight break on him.

Jason Miskimins alerted us to a problem that results in a console failure but apparently does not lead to the Red Ring of Death problem for which Microsoft will offer free replacements. Miskimins says this “black screen of death” problem isn’t covered by the warranty and Microsoft charges for fixing the problem.

The story has spread pretty far. A writer in Poland asked if it was OK to translate it into Polish.
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http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/12/microsoft-fires-game-test-contractor-who-talked-to-venturebeat/
 
Steev said:
Bill Gates seems to have even less regard for consumers than Gerald Ratner.
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Well, the whole thing, whether it is all true or not, doesn't really come as a great surprise. Trouble is that many people think that this is just about games and silly little consoles, when it isn't. If Microsoft had its way your fridge would be downloading patches from the net every other day.
 
WeasteDevil said:
Well, the whole thing, whether it is all true or not, doesn't really come as a great surprise. Trouble is that many people think that this is just about games and silly little consoles, when it isn't. If Microsoft had its way your fridge would be downloading patches from the net every other day.
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Those things annoy me, whats in it for Microsoft?
 
WeasteDevil said:
Well, the whole thing, whether it is all true or not, doesn't really come as a great surprise. Trouble is that many people think that this is just about games and silly little consoles, when it isn't. If Microsoft had its way your fridge would be downloading patches from the net every other day.
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I had thought about buying a 360 last year but the number of people complaining about them breaking just put me off. Releasing consoles - or any consumer goods - that have a failure rate of 68% or whatever is a fecking joke.

If this had been a washing machine, TV or a car there would have been a Watchdog special about it.
 
WeasteDevil said:
An OEM licence fee? Do you think that the modern fridge does not have an operating system? Do you think that it somehow smokes on coal?
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Lol chill out you muppet, i was asking an honest question, i have no idea what would be in it for them. So what is an OEM licence fee?

And yes my fridge does smoke on coal..
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Lol chill out you muppet, i was asking an honest question, i have no idea what would be in it for them. So what is an OEM licence fee?

And yes my fridge does smoke on coal..
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An OEM licence fee is what a manufacturer of any given device pays to use patented parts of said device. For example, if HD-DVD had won against Blu-ray, then every disc sold would have been cash in the pocket for Microsoft, as it basically used a Microsoft codec. Ching ching.

I'm not the muppet here. The entire reason that Microsoft got involved in the console business is because they were getting very scared indeed over what Sony were doing. As time goes on, the entire home and all devices in it will become interconnected, and some device will be the access point to control that. At the moment they call it "media-hub", next it will be "electronics-hub". Once you get to that point (PS3 already runs Linux, has a webbrowser inbuilt, connects to other devices over DNLA, etc.), then it's pushing to the point where a PC in the home is not necessary. Homes without PCs are not in the interest of Microsoft. Microsoft dictating its software runs on all home devices is not in the interests of Sony.

Microsoft have not lost in the region of $8 billion just trying to make a series of game boxes.
 
WeasteDevil said:
An OEM licence fee is what a manufacturer of any given device pays to use patented parts of said device. For example, if HD-DVD had won against Blu-ray, then every disc sold would have been cash in the pocket for Microsoft, as it basically used a Microsoft codec. Ching ching.

I'm not the muppet here. The entire reason that Microsoft got involved in the console business is because they were getting very scared indeed over what Sony were doing. As time goes on, the entire home and all devices in it will become interconnected, and some device will be the access point to control that. At the moment they call it "media-hub", next it will be "electronics-hub". Once you get to that point (PS3 already runs Linux, has a webbrowser inbuilt, connects to other devices over DNLA, etc.), then it's pushing to the point where a PC in the home is not necessary. Homes without PCs are not in the interest of Microsoft. Microsoft dictating its software runs on all home devices is not in the interests of Sony.

Microsoft have not lost in the region of $8 billion just trying to make a series of game boxes.
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Thanks Weaste, very informative. Glad you have calmed down.
 
What Microsoft basically want is that all devices in the home run on their software. It's a software company after all. If XBox could get Sony to withdraw from the console business, then Microsoft would lay down a standard for consoles, and let the electronics manufacturers make them - it has done that in the PC space. Sony and the rest would make the XBoxes and Microsoft would reep the rewards.

Once their software is in your TV, your music player, your console, you mobile phone, your car, your etc. then they have it all locked down.

Thankfully they are others fighting them on multiple fronts. Sony and Nintendo in the console space, Apple laughing at them in the portable music space (Zune) by using open standards, Linux and Firefox in the application and OS space, the Blu-ray Disc Association in the video format space, Google in the Internet and online application space, etc.

It's a fecked up company that should be broken up in exactly the same way as the American telephone and oil companies were broken to bits.
 
At the end of a day, what is a modern console to be? It replaces your freeview box, your skybox, your VCR, your DVD player, your PS2, your..... all one box that then connects to the internet and allows you to play video on demand, rent movies, buy movies, post on RedCafe......
 
Not read the full thread but what Weaste said for them two posts is spot on. Typical business sense and blatantly Microsoft all over. Of course, a little loss and a few problems in the now doesn't matter when you will reap the benefits later on when you have a bit of dominance - you could relate that to Windows as a model in that sense really.

Everybody is trying to do that right now though across the board. Apple Ipods - Iphone. On a bigger scale and more software based look at Google taking over everything, even bringing out their browser and have an actual phone in the pipeline (manufactured by some other company).
 
WeasteDevil said:
What Microsoft basically want is that all devices in the home run on their software. It's a software company after all. If XBox could get Sony to withdraw from the console business, then Microsoft would lay down a standard for consoles, and let the electronics manufacturers make them - it has done that in the PC space. Sony and the rest would make the XBoxes and Microsoft would reep the rewards.

Once their software is in your TV, your music player, your console, you mobile phone, your car, your etc. then they have it all locked down.

Thankfully they are others fighting them on multiple fronts. Sony and Nintendo in the console space, Apple laughing at them in the portable music space (Zune) by using open standards, Linux and Firefox in the application and OS space, the Blu-ray Disc Association in the video format space, Google in the Internet and online application space, etc.

It's a fecked up company that should be broken up in exactly the same way as the American telephone and oil companies were broken to bits.
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WeasteDevil said:
At the end of a day, what is a modern console to be? It replaces your freeview box, your skybox, your VCR, your DVD player, your PS2, your..... all one box that then connects to the internet and allows you to play video on demand, rent movies, buy movies, post on RedCafe......
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Good summary Weaste:D
 
WeasteDevil said:
What Microsoft basically want is that all devices in the home run on their software. It's a software company after all. If XBox could get Sony to withdraw from the console business, then Microsoft would lay down a standard for consoles, and let the electronics manufacturers make them - it has done that in the PC space. Sony and the rest would make the XBoxes and Microsoft would reep the rewards.

Once their software is in your TV, your music player, your console, you mobile phone, your car, your etc. then they have it all locked down.

Thankfully they are others fighting them on multiple fronts. Sony and Nintendo in the console space, Apple laughing at them in the portable music space (Zune) by using open standards, Linux and Firefox in the application and OS space, the Blu-ray Disc Association in the video format space, Google in the Internet and online application space, etc.

It's a fecked up company that should be broken up in exactly the same way as the American telephone and oil companies were broken to bits.
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It makes sense for any company to do this, no doubt. Thats what the CC is here for i believe.
 
Well, this is slightly akin to Rolls Royce desiding to go up against Airbus and Beoing and make a plane in order to ensure aeroengine sales, in the blind hope that in time both woud exclusively buy their engines.

30 odd percent of said RR aircraft then crash and burn, yet people still fly on the fecking things.
 
Except 360's dont fall out of the sky killing people in the process.

I think its called vertical business integration, its not just the nasty people at Microsoft that do it.
 
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lolzzzz
 
GloryHunter07 said:
I think its called vertical business integration, its not just the nasty people at Microsoft that do it.
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Many other companies would also close down or demerge non profitable parts of their business, especially when they eat money like there is no tomorrow. It's not just another vertical though, it's a long term strategic goal - get Sony out of the business, and then define the standard, and then get out of the hardware side of the business yourself. They would love it if everything in your house had to connect to Live (Sony are doing the same, with a roadmap to have PSN across their entire product line). If Sony went to Microsoft tomorrow and said - look, this PS4 thing, can you develop the OS for it please and let it connect to Live, Microsoft would be out of the console making business in a flash.

In any case, if there is another XBox from Microsoft, I think that it will be the last. Anything after that will be virtual, with XBox simply defining the standard of which any device using the name must comply with. No different to DirectX. Have you ever heard of MSX?
 
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