He wouldn't even consider us.
Xabi Alonso: Bayer Leverkusen manager
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Don't be silly.
Interest peaked in Dortmund when they made the CL finals not the times they were winning buli but crashing out of Europa in 2011. In that 2013, by the time Bayern signed Gotze, I will say the demolition work on Madrid was what heightened the interest in Dortmund and by that time they were already like 15points behind Bayern in the table in April. The French league changed winners at a time when things were globalized, Serie A changed winners in the last 4yrs, EPL winners has remained the same. Have these international watchers switched to Serie A and left EPL?
If these players go to Bayern main rivals in Europe then Bayern and other Buli teams will end up looking weak probably become the 6th best league in Europe
Bayern's interest is to have a squad competitive with their European rivals while spending less since they don't have the deep pockets of their Euro rivals. So to compete they cannot afford to spend what others are spending and cannot afford as much transfer flops. The ways they think to do this is to find players who are culturally acclimatized and wont seek to jump ship in the next window
If you were to be Bayern's transfer man, I will present 3 cases of the high profile from rivals
1. Neuer 25M fee, German, National team player and likely German NT keeper for the next decade, Intense interest from a European rival Manchester United. Likely to be a generational in his position. Close options Not in the market. An inferior DeGea went for same price same summer. The previous generational GK(Buffon) transferred for 30M 10yrs earlier
2. Lewandowski, Free transfer, Already spent years in Germany from Poland so cultural assimilation not a problem. Intense interest from a European rival Madrid, Likely to be generational in his position, Close options in the market - Cavani signed by PSG for 60M
3. Gotze 40M. German youth and NT player, said to be a generational talent, Other options in the market - Neymar from Brazil who will prefer Spain and cost upwards of 100M based on what Barcelona spent on him
Would you decide to just spend more and watch these proven Buli players go strengthen your European rivals
The 2 ways to be competitive is either for other teams to step up or Bayern step down. Bayern steps down means everyone in the league becomes shitty
If Leverkusen or other clubs will keep their players and not sell abroad then maybe Bayern will not try to buy them but telling Bayern not to buy yet sell them to other European teams who use these players to beat Bayern. I struggle to see how that helps anyone especially Bayern
In the Vidal deal, Leverkusen refused to sell to Bayern, sold to Juve for cheaper(spread out payment vs lump payment), Bayern bought Javi Martinez and 3yrs later signed the same Vidal from Juventus. After 4yrs Leverkusen had lost Vidal and lost transfer income from Bayern, After the 4yrs Bayern has Vidal
That's nice but it doesn't square with the 100m spent for Harry Kane (an englishman, nation famous for not 'acclimatizing', 30 years old), fortunes spent on Javi Martinez, Lucas Hernandez, etc.
The discussion is a bit pointless since Bayern has lost its monopoly on the Bundesliga top products as of now. They don't have the pull and the money to attract talents such as Dembele, Sancho, Bellingham, Wirtz or even Havertz anymore and I highly doubt they'll get Alonso. But I still think you underestimate how much harm Bayern inflicted on the Bundesliga brand as well as the Dortmund brand by signing Götze, Lewandowski and Hummels as a reaction to their two titles under Klopp. That cemented their reputation as a feeder club and that of the Bundesliga as a farmer's league both in the eyes of international fans and potential signings as well. Had they left for foreign clubs, it would have been a completely different story and I believe Bayern itself would be in a much better position now. The mess in which they are in is a result of the lack of domestic competition. It is no coincidence that the 91 and 90 points seasons occurred immediately after Dortmund's ascend to a real challenger. And it is no coincidence either that Bayern gradually got worse after signing their best players.
So yes, as a Bayern official, I would renounce making those four signings and pursue other targets in order to protect the brand of the league I'm playing in.
Of those the most questionable by far is Lewandowski on a free transfer. It's just incredibly small-time to sign a top player of your rival on a free.
You guys swiped Figo from Barcelona!
What's with this expectation for clubs to act all altruistic?
It's definitely small time to talk him into not extending his contract or moving somewhere and then tell the club that they should be happy they kept him in the league. You can apply that to various domestic transfers they made by the way
It's not about altruism vs selfishness, it is about long term perspective vs short term perspective
We wanted to buy him already when he 1 year left on his contract. Bayern and Dortmund couldnt agree on a fee, so he joined us for free.
Do you also complain when Leverkusen buys the best players of clubs like Hoffenheim, Union Berlin or Gladbach?
Or is it only bad when Bayern does that?
Btw didnt you guys break some sort of gentlemans agreement when you signed Wirtz from Cologne? Dont Leverkusen, Gladbach and Cologne have a agreement to not go for each others youth players?
Leverkusen will only go downwards from next season on, that’s a one off season right now. Liverpool offer a title contending team in the world’s most attractive league, CL, way more money and the ex club factor. No brainer for him imo.
Leverkusen could lose half their team for all we know.
Frimpong (~40) and Tah (18) have very low release clauses, Boniface dreams of the PL, Grimaldo dreams of Barcelona, Wirtz will probably be chased by some of the biggest clubs in the world.
And what has Alonso to accomplish in Leverkusen when they win the Bundesliga title (and maybe the Cup and maybe the EL) this year?
It wont get any better than that.
So far Xabi seems to pick his jobs very careful and step by step. It's absolutely possible that he wants to get CL experience first before moving to a bigger club.
It's basically safe that Leverkusen will play in the CL next season and likely that they will be a title contending team as well next season (this isn’t a one off season in my opinion, it is the pieces assembled during the last years finally all falling into place). I believe ex club vs his own team kind of evens out, so the only thing Liverpool has over Leverkusen is the bigger league with more money.
That's absolutely a big point, but considering that Alonso didn't jump at his first chance to manager in the BL I am not sure he will jump at his first chance to manage in the PL. Still well possible that he will do it, but I don't think it's a no-brainer for him.
Tuchel's leaving Bayern...
What does this mean for Shabby?
What does this mean for Shabby?
We will certainly try to get him.
Rummenigge and Hoeneß are very big fans of him since the time he played for us. We even offered him the role as sporting director or a youth coach during that time.
Fantastic stuff, Liverpool will at least have a fight on their hands.
Would like Bayern to get him as I do feel Liverpool deserve a few years of being shit, they can have him once he's finished at Bayern in 25 years.
I'm not talking about morals or justice. You can sign whoever you want but Bayern shouldn't complain that the international revenues suck when they are the ones that ruin the Bundesliga brand by trying to raid every emerging rival as soon as they can. The league doidn't became uninteresting for international audiences because we signed Hofmann from Gladbach or Andrich from Union Berlin.
Regarding Wirtz: Not that it matters because I'm not arguing from a moral standpoint but the agreement between the three clubs is about youth players. We signed Wirtz as a first team player.
Lewandowski asked to leave earlier and a fee of 35m was on the table which Dortmund rejected as they didn't want to lose Lewy and Gotze same season
Bayern didn't see Dortmund as a rival their rivals are more of continental oppositions
How us that any different to Liverpool who are only really at the top of the table due too a lot of luck and favorable ref and VAR decisions, whoever takes over from Klopp will need to carryout out a squad rebuild to replace ageing and/or departing players like Matip, VVD, and Salah on a limited budget so its not going to be an easy job and could take years to get them challangeing for major honours again.
I guess i should ignore your domestic matches then.
Bayern between 2002 and 2012 have regular challenges to the title from Dortmjnd Bremen Stuttgart Wolfsburg sometimes they even miss out on CL football but none of these clubs have the finances to match them on the long run.
By the time these clubs do well for some time they get picked apart either locally or internationally. Leverkusen can win the double this season but Bayern won't see them as a rival
To be fair the only player Dortmund sold them was Hummels too. Gotze had a release clause which Bayern activated, they had no say, and Lewandowski ran down his contract to move there (same with Guerreiro though he's not a top player).The last player we sold to Bayern was Lucio almost 20 years agoBayern tried to lowball us on Vidal but we refused to sell and instead transferred him to Juve. In general, we prefer selling players to foreign clubs. If somebody wants to move to Bayern and Bayern only, I guess we'll comply as part of our philosophy is to not hold onto players/coaches against their will but I'm generally optimistic that either Alonso nor Wirtz will end up in Munich right now.
Same boring stuff, according to some we wont have enough players to field next season given that everyone will be leaving.
I think realistically Frimpong will probably leave and then maybe Palacios, Tah and Tapsoba have question marks around them. Grimaldo and Boniface will stay, we never ever sell players after just one season, never happened and never will happen. Especially Grimaldo has signed a very lucrative contract with us and is pushing 30, he committed to a long-term project.
Wirtz will stay another year, even his dad basically confirmed it already.
What many also fail to think about is the fact that even if players are leaving its not like Rolfes will just go to sleep. If players are leaving, they will leave for big sums that can be reinvested into the squad. Especially with CL football all but guaranteed already, the club will be attractive to a lot of players. We managed to bring in the likes of Xhaka, Grimaldo and Hofmann even without CL football, its not hard to imagine us buying another stack of quality players in the summer.
Regarding Alonso, what is he yet to accomplish? Playing in the Champions League with this team and develop further as a coach competing on the highest level. I dont think its safe to say he stays with Liverpool and Bayern going after him but its very possibe. From his perspective, I believe Madrid is naturally his dream job (his club in his native country) and signing a long term deal now at Bayern or Liverpool would close the door for a while. When he stays with us, he could succeed Ancelotti when his contract expires after gaining a few years of experience at Leverkusen.
You cant have an internationally popular league made up of Bayern and Bayerns b team. People will check in around now to see how likely Bayern are to do something in the champions league (dont see it this year) and ignore it the other 11 months of the year. You can have the dominance or the wider interest but not both.
I see where you are coming from but I think you are missing the point.
The very fact that the Bundesliga is a German league is a strategic disadvantage that won't be easily overcome. I personally even think it's impossible.
The Spanish league will always appeal more to the Hispanic population while English is the most widely spoken language in the world.
It's probably the least important aspect, but even the fact that German football fans can easily join a forum like red cafe and participate in the discussions, illustrates this. Meanwhile the biggest German forum Transfermarkt is primarily in German, therefore inaccessible for non German speakers.
The same is true for much more important factors, like media coverage, interviews etc. It's always more enjoyable to be able to follow a league and everything around it in its native language.
Plus, there are historic reasons why the Premier league is so popular in e.g. India.
I think in this regard we need to distinguish between product and promotion. The better the product, the easier it is to promote. In turn, a bad product is much harder to promote, effectively enhancing the challenges you already described. And for international audiences, one aspect of the 'product' Bundesliga is the most interesting one: Title challenges, rivalries and top players. Bayern's transfer strategy has made the league uninteresting to international audiences and then the language barrier suddenly may seem insurmountable.
That being sad, the Bundesliga has done a terrible job on the promotional side of things as well. In this day and age, language is less and less important. It is cheap to produce English content and through AI subtiutles in all languages are basically free of charge, social media means that you'll easily find like minded people speaking your own tongue that you cann communicate with, content is very easily accessible through the internet, etc. However, if you don't even produce English content, if you neglect social media, if you think more about copy right infringements than viral content, you of course get outpaced. However, as long as the league and the stories you can tell remain so notoriously boring that itbecomes an internet meme, you would even find it hard to achieve anything if you did all those things right as the intrinsic motivation of your target group to engage with your content is almost non-existant.
He looks and acts like the real deal. He has good pedigree as noted by Mourinho and others before. He was a very smart player in his playing days and was very efficient with the ball and spaces. I would absolutely hate it if he goes to Liverpool. What are the chances they get two managers of that quality back to back while we spent a billion and a change chopping squads and managers? Sadly I think we got no chance if they are looking for a manager too. If Klopp was still there we would absolutely have had a chance.
He is more interested in joining Bayern than Liverpool
If it would be as simple as you make it out to be, why is the Serie A and the Ligue 1 equally bad when it comes to international audiences?
Can't also blame Bayern for destroying those products, can you?
I fully agree with what @es-muellert said, these are the main reasons for why the PL and to a lesser extent La Liga are in front in that regard.
La Liga also profitted massively from Messi and Ronaldo and social media. In many asian, arabian or african countries you will probably find more fans of Messi/Ronaldo than fans of a specific big european club.
Maybe Bayern have agreed to keep Tuchel on as a way of totally conceding the title, if he agrees to join them in the summer. Smart.
Only for Juve to lowball you even more and buy Vidal for a ridiculous 12M fee.The last player we sold to Bayern was Lucio almost 20 years ago
Bayern then had to pay Juve 45M to buy him from them 4 years later, while also paying 40M for Javi Martinez in the years between as a partner for Schweinsteiger.
On top of that because Leverkusen preferred to sell him to Juve for less money than Bayern offered, Bayern missed a strong partner for Schweinsteiger in their 2012 CL campaign which they lost to Chelsea.
This was absolutely not a good thing for the Bundesliga and I don't know why it is presented as one.
Leverkusen was through the past decade never anywhere near to competing with Bayern either, so it wasn't like they were selling to a competitor.
The only team that profited was Juve.
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Ligue 1 just doesn't have the potential - it isn't noted too much by the international audience. But Seria A and Bundesliga are. Of these, Bundesliga has the greater potential imo due to better visual appeal created by better stadia and better production. As an Indian, I can attest to what Zehner said - that Bayern's monopoly has ruined Bundesliga's appeal for people like me. I also tried following the Serie A , but it has terrible production values and for some reason is not as appealing as the Bundesliga to watch.
The Bayern monopoly is from last decade though. The issue is the Bundes marketed itself poorly outside of Germany during the sport's golden age for expansion into foreign markets, never became as accessible, thus familiar, thus interesting to those audiences, and well, now the PL dominates those markets, so, they no longer have as much room for growth. Internally, they are humstrung by German football culture. Not to belay the point but the brits are, gullible, or perhaps egotistical, when it comes to pay TV subscriptions, in a way no other major european market is, and it's only tangentially related to the quality of the product(it is also probably true that the brits are just more football mad than the others. Also just culturally, the brits are, well, insular, in a way the rest of europe is not. And these reflects in how brits care about the PL in a way nobody else cares about their domestic league. It's common for an english fan to prefer their team win the PL over the CL. To an Italian, or Spanish, that is rank insanity)
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Why does every bundesliga related thread just become bundesliga vs other leagues thread
That's a very interesting way of putting it
Bayern tried to force us intonselling below market value. They said on a presss conference that Vidal would come this season on their terms or next season for free. They benched on Vidal wanting to follow Heynckes and were pissed when we sold him to Juventus for a higher price. Both on him because he didn't want to let his contract run out and on us because we dared selling him to another club that offered more. And yes, it was good for the league. The Bundesliga =/= Bayern and 17 clubs feeding one has luckily stopped, at least in the last few years
Because sooner or later a non Bayern fan will blame Bayern for the reason that the Bundesliga is not as popular as the PL or La Liga.
Because many Germans have a huge inferior complex and need football to compensate for it.
That's also why even people like Uli Hoeneß many years ago were not ashamed to publicly announce that Real Madrid would soon go bankrupt.
The world cup final was a nightmare for many German football fans as it meant that either Messi was going to be crowned or France was adding one more world cup to their title list and thus getting closer to Germany.
If they are not successful on the pitch, then at least they need to feel like they are superior when it comes to solid finances.
Btw, ever noticed that German fans will usually even cheer for their archenemy in Europe? Could you ever imagine a die-hard United fan rooting for Liverpool or Manchester City in the Champions League? In Germany that behavior is really common as it's the German football fans biggest dream to see the Bundesliga dominate European football.
The BDL utopia