That's a bit mad to be honest. Seek 2.5 years for all the other bad shit he did, but I don't get how the penalty can go that high for that kind of offence.
WWC23 | England v Spain - Spain win the World Cup - and Rubiales gets sacked
- Thread starter jojojo
- Start date
Sexual assault?
Is this sexual assault?
Does this deserve a 2-and-a-half-year sentence?
A brief hug and a seemingly consensual kiss where the woman left with a broad smile on her face.
There are basically two related sets of charges. One is the unwanted kiss itself - where they've asked for 12 months. The other is for his and his RFEFs allies attempts to push her to say she'd given consent - the prosecutor ssked for 18 months for that.
When the attempt to coerce her (and her family and teammates) failed, he got RFEFs PR team to invent and publish a statement from her saying it was all fine and he had nothing to apologise about. When she complained about them making up a statement, he got RFEFs legal team to threaten to sue her.
First offence convictions below two years usually get suspended in Spain. Chances are that he'll be fined and get a suspended sentence. There may be a ban on him working in sport as well.
She's just won the world cup of course she's smiling. Besides that is there any woman out there who has not been told to "laugh it off" when someone does something she finds offensive or belittling?
In any case, the initial incident would have been 12 month maximum - and would have been converted to a fine and maybe a suspended sentence, if it even got to court. The other 18 months comes from the bullying and coersion directed at Hermosa and her family and teammates in the aftermath. He was her boss's boss - he used RFEF full-time officers to help him try and bully her into saying she was fine with it.
Her statement defies the ocular proof!
I'm not sure you understand consent. Someone smiling doesn't equal consent.
Try again and this time add the charge of coersion and his post offence behaviour towards her, her family and teammates.
Also tell me have you ever heard the phrase: "just laugh it off," or maybe even, "don't let that moron spoil it".
That all makes a lot more sense.
Quality control
Firstly there was no offence, it was a very fleeting seemingly consensual non-amorous embrace and kiss.
Such evidence wouldn't meet the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard in a rational context. Yet, absurdly, this incident has had severe repercussions for Rubiales, now including potential loss of freedom and mandatory registration as a sex offender.
The phrases you quoted are problematic in itself, because mayhaps "laughing it off" can oftentimes be indiscernible from consent and approval of an action. As I have said continually in this thread that I had no idea who Rubiales was before this incident nor do I care about the Spanish FA. But I have lived long enough to identify when an incident and reaction to an incident is escalated for political gain.
He escalated it. A straightforward apology would have have minimised the damage to him and wouldn't have spoiled the party when they got back to Spain with a World Cup.
Instead he did what he always did, he lied, bluffed and bullied. He then used his position of authority to get his minions to do his dirty work and lie to the press and threaten legal action against the player. Why did he do that? Because he's used to getting away with things, because doubling down has worked for him.
You say, you knew nothing about about him beforehand - but you reckon you can judge him and her based on a couple of seconds of video. The woman stood next to him on the podium (from the English FA) had a harsher judgment of his behaviour, based on what she observed that night. The women who've worked with him have a harsher judgment based on long observations of his behaviour away from the cameras.
I get that you feel that you know more than the people involved on the night and the people who know his history. Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well. Like any narcissist Rubiales went smoothly from saying people were idiots for complaining to self-justifying bluffing through to bullying - because that's what he has always done.
It is because you don't know about the Spanish FA that you think this was 'escalated for political gain' instead of understanding it as the straw that broke the camel's back.
It’s the very definition of it as it wasn’t consensual, no matter how “seemingly” it was.
Just want to say thank you for your posts.
Bit more details here:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/27/luis-rubiales-30-month-jail-sentence-hermoso-kiss
He's unlikely to serve any time in jail and certainly not 2.5yrs, but a fine, suspended sentence and ban from football would seem appropriate if found guilty.
It'd also not just Rubiales but 3 other football officials including WC winning coach Vilda who are charged with coersion.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/27/luis-rubiales-30-month-jail-sentence-hermoso-kiss
He's unlikely to serve any time in jail and certainly not 2.5yrs, but a fine, suspended sentence and ban from football would seem appropriate if found guilty.
It'd also not just Rubiales but 3 other football officials including WC winning coach Vilda who are charged with coersion.
Excellent post.
And exactly right. What an absolute shame for those Spanish women that it took a moment the entire world was watching for them finally to be believed.
Such a nice guy.
He really is.
The thing is, he's not alone. Lot's and lot's more of the men in that building are knee deep in a cesspool of corruption. Right now he's the fall guy. Look out for Piqué being brought in too.
The entire interaction between Rubiales and Hermoso during the ceremony can be seen as one of mutual jest and amusement. It's clear from the footage that Hermoso tiptoes slightly to lift Rubiales, who appears to dramatize the action. Following this, he kisses her, to which she responds with a smile, clapping him on the sides before continuing to greet the other dignitaries warmly. There is no evidence of even the briefest look of distress on her face.
As I have said numerous times on this thread that my opinion is based solely on the video evidence presented. The video above shows more of the interaction from a different angle and it confirms my initial opinion on the matter. He embraces her, she jokingly attempts to lift him, he exaggerates the lift by raising his legs off the floor , they briefly embrace, he kisses her on the lips and she pats him and moves down the line to embrace the other person. I did not see anything sexual in any of the gestures and I was and still am astounded that a man might lose his liberty for an incident, that was ill-judged but surely not criminal. My comments were based on that singular interaction, nothing more and nothing less.
It is a topic that intrigues me and I have a unique perspective on situations like these because I was once falsely accused of sexual harassment by a third party. The accusations were ignored because it was part of a wider set of allegations that involved others which no one in the organisation wanted to deal with. I had to threaten legal action to have the accusations investigated properly and when interviewed the persons told the truth , that I did not harass them and that our differences were solely work-related. It was not a pleasant time waiting for vindication, seeing the smirks and hearing the comments while knowing that I did nothing to deserve such treatment and the real fear that the persons might be coopted into the lies for their own benefit. The vindication however was never widely circulated as the accusations. There is not a day that I do not remember it.
I can also see the other side in that if the accusations made against me were indeed true, the victims would have had an equally difficult time in getting their stories heard. I have many friends who would have detailed to me their personal experiences of sexual abuse and even rape. None of these friends ever reported these incidents. I believe that accusations should be taken seriously and investigated with rigour but the possibility of persons manipulating the system for their own personal gain cannot be ignored. Women like men also have the capacity to lie and manipulate situations for their own benefit. This is why we have burdens of proof.
Rubiales behaviour was ill-judged and not exactly what I would have expected from a Senior FA official and I will not lose any sleep if he is jailed for any legitimate crimes he has committed. But this does not pass the smell test and is likely to create certain precedents that run counter to natural justice
Luis Rubiales to stand trial for World Cup kiss of footballer Jenni Hermoso
It is actually happening...Insane
It is actually happening...Insane
What is insane, is basing a judgement of an entire, long and complex set of episodes completely on one’s own experiences from a completely unrelated matter, reading one’s own history into a fifteen second video of strangers, refusing to take in information about the context, the aftermath etc in favour of one’s own personal, unrelated history, not answering any arguments, just repeating one’s own, month after month, with no interest beyond repeating the conclusion of one’s own personal history as if it pertains to the complex matter at hand - that is textbook insanity. Or insincerity, BS, politically driven manipulation, you choose. This is not about you, señor, don’t make it.
To me, insanity is when we ignore the evidence before our eyes in favor of an agenda-driven narrative. The case in point involves Rubiales and Hermioso, where their interaction lasted merely eight seconds. Yet, the brief moment, during which Hermoso embraced and lifted Rubiales in a gesture that seemed to suggest camaraderie, has scarcely been circulated—perhaps because it complicates the prevailing narrative.
While it is plausible that Rubiales used his position within the FA to attempt to coerce Hermoso and her family to modify their account, this in itself does not confirm his guilt in an assault. Indeed, Rubiales might be deeply entrenched in corruption, but this does not automatically make him culpable of sexual assault. The "evidence of the sexual assault" is limited to that 8-second clip showing both parties breaking protocol, yet nothing in this footage clearly indicates a non-consensual or even a sexual interaction.
Am I wrong to insist that we must consider all evidence before passing judgment and potentially stripping a man of his freedom? Is it incorrect to suggest that Rubiales' rivals might be exploiting this situation to oust him, thereby avoiding scrutiny of their own potential misconduct in other serious matters?
The Spanish FA has long been plagued with allegations of corruption, nepotism, sexism, and racism. Perhaps the removal of Rubiales, ostensibly a concession to feminist groups, allows his successors to sidestep addressing these pervasive issues systematically and comprehensively.
I have grown wary of witch hunts and organizational power plays; my experiences have taught me to recognize their patterns and origins. This scenario seems to exhibit all the typical features of such a manoeuvre, where individuals are rallied into fervent support of a position that often contradicts the objective evidence at hand.
Drawing from my personal experience with a false accusation, where I had to threaten legal action in a prejudiced environment to clear my name, I am particularly sensitive to the complexities involved in such cases. While I understand the challenges of addressing genuine accusations effectively, my approach remains balanced. Just as I have learned the importance of a fair and thorough examination of all facts, so too should we not apply such diligence to this issue.
Then you should know that your interpretation of the eight seconds you stubbornly remain exclusievely focused on, could be misinterpreted by you as well as anybody else here. If your only goal in this thread is to fight against mob verdict of ‘Sexual assault’, I think you can put your weapons to better use. Not many seem intent to do that. A worthier cause might be to advocate fir the removal from power of the group of men in power who have chastized, pressurised, manipulated and overruled most of the professional female footballers in Spain for more than two years, well documented and witnessed by not one, but many, many people first hand.
Seeing as none of these power-abusing men in question seem in danger of becoming jobless or exiled, maybe let those straw men sleep and see who is getting their ten years as professional footballers marred by power abusing passengers, and ask yourself what are these rights you are fighting for? The right of men over fifty to keep any top job they’r eill equipped for, at the cost of the people they were supposed to be serving, the people really doing the job? Because Antonio Rubiales is not you, he is not being beheaded in the town square, he is not the victim in these proceedings in any sane perspective.
You seem to trivialize the gravity of Rubiales being charged with a sex crime, a charge stemming from merely eight seconds of film. If it weren’t for the allegations based on just half of that brief interaction, there would be no trial, no call for his removal from office. These eight seconds could determine his entire future.
I firmly believe that using Rubiales as a sacrificial lamb to advance reform in women's football is deeply troubling and violates the principles of natural justice. Employing such sacrificial justice not only sets a dangerous precedent and risks harming Rubiales, but it also threatens to discredit the legitimate fight against sexism by associating it with this witch hunt.
Any victory achieved through such means is likely to be pyrrhic, ultimately undermining the very cause it aims to support. We must remember: the ends do not always justify the means.
The charges are not based only that video though - there are also eyewitness accounts about other inappropriate behaviour that you seem to have missed:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67641943
But really you won't find many (if any) who think he deserves to be in prison for any kind of sex crime
As has been repeatedly pointed out, the actual incident that you keep focusing on is less important than how he dealt with the subsequent fall out with an attempted cover up
Is it a political witch hunt? Absolutely yes, does he deserve it? Probably yes.
But I'm happy to let justice take it's course and he's entitled to a fair trial.
More importantly, Will it lead to improvements in Spanish women's football? That depends on who has replaced Rubiales and his associates, only time will tell.
But unfortunately the early signs are that not much has changed actually:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68840033
Sounds like he is being charged quite appropriately. What is more worrying is that you seem entirely ignorant as to what sexual assault is and/or are actively denying/trivialising it. Why you would feel the need to die on the hill of this utter creep is a mystery. The idea that prosecuting people like him will damage any fight against sexism is preposterous. Ignoring sexual assault and harassments it exactly how we got here.
How you can turn an obvious scumbag into a victim is quite something.
It very much seems that whatever your personal experience was that is has warped your perception about sexual crimes to the point where you feel the need to posts dozens of times to defend a really dodgy, rape adjacent, scumbag. Forcing a woman to be kissed on the mouth without consent (and his other well documented dodgy behaviour) may not be the same as being abducted off the street and gang raped, but it is still a sex crime. If he had the self-awareness to simply say "Woops, I'm sorry. I behaved inappropriately in the heat of the winning moment" he may even have got away scott free (legally at least). But his doubling down and insistence that he hadn't done anything wrong was never going to end well.
It is becoming apparent that you didn’t actually watch the eight-second interaction between them. After she was "forcibly kissed," she embraced her assaulter and walked away smiling. What about Hermoso trying to physically lift Rubiales off his feet, presumably without consent? Perhaps he should file a complaint based on battery and false imprisonment. However, I see this as an interaction that, while breaking protocol, was playful.
Of course I've seen the video. Who hasn't. The video makes for very uncomfortable watching. She was plainly not cooperating at all. And who the feck does that? "We won. Come here so I can stick my tongue down your throat?". That isn't playful. It is a crime.
Not to mention that there is heaps of other evidence and this was far from the only incident. He then went off on one denying it was a problem or that he did anything wrong. Even if he didn't give a shit (which he plainly doesn't) reading the room and (non) apologising "I got carried away in the moment. This isn't who I am" and he would probably have got away with it.
It is troubling that you seem to find this sort of behaviour acceptable.
You probably see a coach slapping his player on the arse as playful to. It was once but thats before anyone bothered to ask players if it was acceptable. It was playful for the coach doing it....
You can't see what she's thinking.
He got carried away after his country won the World Cup. It was inappropriate but I really don't think there was any sexual angle to it. Talk of a prison sentence over it are absurd.
You have obviously been watching a different video from what I saw. If you can post a video where he sticks his tongue into her mouth, I will readily concede my position and apologise to everyone on this thread.
I saw a very brief peck on the lips, a seemingly close-mouthed kiss. I saw Hermoso subsequently give him a quick embrace and walk away smiling. You obviously have access to video of a separate incident or another angle that is not widely available. Please share it
Why are you so certain Hermoso was the one who initiated or wanted to lift Rubiales? Because if that's not the case, then your 'camaraderie' angle falls flat. Not that it changes anything anyways even if she was the one, who did.
For me, it looks like Rubiales hugged her tightly and then raised his own feet to put all of his weight on her and then it was her natural reaction to brace herself for that. Plenty of people do this unprompted like when you jumped on someone's back and the person adjusts as they feel your weight. However, that doesn't mean the person holding the other person/bracing their weight is doing some kind of initiating because if they didn't hold on, both of them would fall.
In Hermoso's position, if she did want to initiate, she would be hugging tightly and leaning backwards on her heels to hold his weight and not tip toeing forwards unbalanced (because who lifts someone on their toes?), as she didn't probably expect to be carrying his weight unpromoted.
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