WSL 2023-2024 | NewCo
- Thread starter Rood
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There's something a little anticlimactic about winning the title and celebrating in another team's stadium.
I'm sure you'll get over it
I'm sure you'll get over it
I know I sound so spoilt here but it just could have been a nicer day if I could attend the game and be part of the celebrations.
On paper the best possible replacement for Emma Hayes. Let's hope she fits in well. Still pissed off with our sporting directors that they dithered on Emma's contract which then paved the way for her departure. Morons.
Saw some quotes today from Hayes and it seems like she really needs this break anyway. So perhaps it was going to happen regardless?
At the time all reports were that she wanted a new deal and the sporting directors were wrangling over how much of an increase she deserved. I don't doubt that's how she feels now she's had 6 months of knowing that she's leaving.
Yeah that makes sense. Helped her to make the decision kind of thing.
New era begins
Arsenal absolutely leading the way and will be higher next season with more Emirates matches
Impressive numbers from Bristol, especially considering they only won 1 match all season
I have some questions if someone would be kind enough to answer any of these. Sorry, but there's a lot! Things look like they're going well for women's football and the WSL. I'm trying to gauge the state of play and potential for future growth. It's just for curiosity, some of these will be more United orientated. I put my own uninformed thoughts after all of them.
There are 22 games in the WSL. Is this likely to be increased in the near future?
I believe there have been calls for the top-flight to be expanded at times, but I do see that the bottom team already can already struggle with them often picking up very low point totals/ points per game. The last few seasons it's been 6 points, 11, 11, 12. Does that mean that there isn't enough strength in depth within the pyramid to make expanding the league attractive if competitive games is the aim?
Any talk of adopting the Scottish men's Premier League format instead? They get 38 games from 12 teams.
Suppose squads would be need to be larger. Are finances an issue? Mind you, the clubs would be bringing more money in through playing more often.
Thoughts on the future-planned women's equivalent of the Europa League for 25/26?
I was actually going to ask if there was potential for one before seeing that it's in the pipeline. I would have guessed not but it's good to see it being given a go. Looking at the qualifying rounds of this season's Champions League, I imagine some of the clubs are strictly amateur and would struggle with time off work and/or being able to afford to travel which is probably why the mini qualifying tournaments were almost all hosted by smaller teams. Will that be an issue when more teams are playing in Europe?
Attendances look healthy, often boosted by matches at the 'big stadium'. What's the future for this, and the specific draw for fans?
Looking at United, 3 of the last 4 WSL Old Trafford games were on weekends when the men's team were not in action. How much of a factor is that kind of thing when trying to attract a big crowd? The one that wasn't (Chelsea recently) the men were playing away the following day. Do fixtures ever clash between the men's and women's teams, even when playing at Leigh and what impact does that have on attendance?
How much of a draw is Old Trafford itself, as WSL games at Leigh don't completely sell out? Is it the pull of the famous stadium? Location because it's much closer to central Manchester?
Is there any scope at all for an independent team not associated with an existing men's team to do well?
This would be great to see but I'm guessing it would be very difficult. First they'd obviously need a stadium/facilities that would cost a fortune, even if rented. The name association with the men's team is why a lot of people start to follow women's football I'd assume. Is it possible without? I see London City Lionesses in the 2nd tier, could they feasibly win promotion and end up winning the top flight one day?
When I was a kid I went to Friends of Fulham v Leasowe Pacific at Old Trafford for the FA Cup final. Very different times back then, attendance 941. I believe both were independent clubs at the time, now the women's teams of AFC Wimbledon and Everton.
General fan culture
Is there much of an away following for WSL teams? Any supporter's coaches going to games regularly or people jumping in a car or minibus together to drive from Manchester to an away match? Or is it more that away fans are going to be living close to the local area of where a game is being played?
Is there an emerging fanbase who exclusively watch women's football and don't even watch men's on TV? I'd imagine this would be most likely among women and girls if it happens at all. More likely to happen in the USA than UK for now?
Cheers!
There are 22 games in the WSL. Is this likely to be increased in the near future?
I believe there have been calls for the top-flight to be expanded at times, but I do see that the bottom team already can already struggle with them often picking up very low point totals/ points per game. The last few seasons it's been 6 points, 11, 11, 12. Does that mean that there isn't enough strength in depth within the pyramid to make expanding the league attractive if competitive games is the aim?
Any talk of adopting the Scottish men's Premier League format instead? They get 38 games from 12 teams.
Suppose squads would be need to be larger. Are finances an issue? Mind you, the clubs would be bringing more money in through playing more often.
Thoughts on the future-planned women's equivalent of the Europa League for 25/26?
I was actually going to ask if there was potential for one before seeing that it's in the pipeline. I would have guessed not but it's good to see it being given a go. Looking at the qualifying rounds of this season's Champions League, I imagine some of the clubs are strictly amateur and would struggle with time off work and/or being able to afford to travel which is probably why the mini qualifying tournaments were almost all hosted by smaller teams. Will that be an issue when more teams are playing in Europe?
Attendances look healthy, often boosted by matches at the 'big stadium'. What's the future for this, and the specific draw for fans?
Looking at United, 3 of the last 4 WSL Old Trafford games were on weekends when the men's team were not in action. How much of a factor is that kind of thing when trying to attract a big crowd? The one that wasn't (Chelsea recently) the men were playing away the following day. Do fixtures ever clash between the men's and women's teams, even when playing at Leigh and what impact does that have on attendance?
How much of a draw is Old Trafford itself, as WSL games at Leigh don't completely sell out? Is it the pull of the famous stadium? Location because it's much closer to central Manchester?
Is there any scope at all for an independent team not associated with an existing men's team to do well?
This would be great to see but I'm guessing it would be very difficult. First they'd obviously need a stadium/facilities that would cost a fortune, even if rented. The name association with the men's team is why a lot of people start to follow women's football I'd assume. Is it possible without? I see London City Lionesses in the 2nd tier, could they feasibly win promotion and end up winning the top flight one day?
When I was a kid I went to Friends of Fulham v Leasowe Pacific at Old Trafford for the FA Cup final. Very different times back then, attendance 941. I believe both were independent clubs at the time, now the women's teams of AFC Wimbledon and Everton.
General fan culture
Is there much of an away following for WSL teams? Any supporter's coaches going to games regularly or people jumping in a car or minibus together to drive from Manchester to an away match? Or is it more that away fans are going to be living close to the local area of where a game is being played?
Is there an emerging fanbase who exclusively watch women's football and don't even watch men's on TV? I'd imagine this would be most likely among women and girls if it happens at all. More likely to happen in the USA than UK for now?
Cheers!
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@Chipper
A lot of questions! I'd say you are better off asking the United specific stuff about OT Vs LSV etc in the MUWomen Forum
But there is going to be a big change in Women's football in UK - read the OP with details about 'NewCo'
Away followings for WSL matches is a new thing - last season was the first time teams were given official Away sections and yes there are MUWomen supporters who go to all games home & away
There are Women's teams which are not connected to Mens teams like Lewes, Durham and London City but realistically they are going to find it difficult to complete with budgets coming from established teams - Newcastle just started a Women's team for example and will likely be in the WSL pretty soon
A lot of questions! I'd say you are better off asking the United specific stuff about OT Vs LSV etc in the MUWomen Forum
But there is going to be a big change in Women's football in UK - read the OP with details about 'NewCo'
Away followings for WSL matches is a new thing - last season was the first time teams were given official Away sections and yes there are MUWomen supporters who go to all games home & away
There are Women's teams which are not connected to Mens teams like Lewes, Durham and London City but realistically they are going to find it difficult to complete with budgets coming from established teams - Newcastle just started a Women's team for example and will likely be in the WSL pretty soon
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Interesting questions but if I try and answer in one hit it'll look like a dissertation in reply. So I'll do it in doses and hopefully it'll just read like a series of essays
The WSL structure does need to change but funding is an issue. Chances are that relegated Bristol will have to go back to being semi-pro for most players next year. It's a hard transition that makes player retention difficult and means they'll inevitably rely on good loan deals if they do come back up.
Crystal Palace are the team going up to WSL1 next year. They're a pro team and having a PL club behind them should give them a bit of stability at least.
The discrepancy in budgets between WSL1 (all full-time) and the championship (a mix of full-time and part-time) has been a big one but teams like Palace, Southampton are pro and teams like Bristol and Sunderland are a mix of pro and semipro. Meanwhile clubs who can't invest like that including Lewes, London, Durham and even Reading are feeling the strain.
Newcastle were down in tier 3 and they were more or less a pro team in an amateur/semipro league. Newcastle and Southampton will get into the championship next season as full-time pro teams.
What does it mean? There's a massive amount of reshuffling going on. Changing the numbers of teams probably isn't the answer right now but should become possible if the game keeps growing. Meanwhile possibilities like switching to a promotion/relegation playoff tournament could add a bit of spice.
Whether we can do the same playoff or mini league trick for the top half is a different problem. It would have to fit in with WCL qualification rules. It would also have to address the incredibly messy timetable that women's football uses (it's long been dominated by the needs of national teams). They'd have to work out how to reconfigure (or replace) the WSL Cup so it didn't just mean an even worse timetable.
It's not unusual for a women's team to have no matches for two weekends followed by three matches in a week - the schedule needs a lot of work. And that's before I even mention how annoying it is when there's a clash between United's men's team matches and the women's team. I'm hoping the fact that NewCo is supposed to be all about professionalism and viability will make them better at these things. We wait and see.
Picking up some of the issues around the fanbase.
Leigh Sports Village is a nice stadium but it's out of town and has no metro or train link.
Fan culture is changing and United fans are part of the change. The early active fans were more or less all United men's team fans, with a lot matchgoers and season ticket holders in the mix. The last season or two, the idea of away ticket allocations sold through United has become a thing. There are minibuses and carshares.
There's still a lot of suspicion and snobbery from traditional women's football fans about the United fans as we're viewed as noisy new arrivals who don't really understand the etiquette and culture of the women's game. But that's fair enough really, the game is changing and we're part of it.
The idea of an away pub in the men's football sense (where it could be done for safety reasons) doesn't really exist in the women's game. It's more a question of sharing ideas about "football friendly" pubs and places where United fans can meet pre-match.
As for independent teams - it's hard for them. There's no built-in fan base to get you started or even to send a bulk email to. The costs of running a team are getting higher as the number of pro and part time teams increase. You need guaranteed funds to even get a licence as a WSL or WSL2. It's going to feel like pushing water uphill. Unless of course you land an owner, fundraiser or a sponsor who is willing to bankroll it. Gate money alone isn't likely to do the job.
It's early days for big crowds and big stadiums. The main pulls of the big stadia - they're familiar, they're more central and they usually have better facilities and better public transport links. Familiarity isn't a small thing - it makes for an easier intro for fans who haven't been to women's football and fans who might want to take family/friends to a match.
Leigh Sports Village is a nice stadium but it's out of town and has no metro or train link.
Fan culture is changing and United fans are part of the change. The early active fans were more or less all United men's team fans, with a lot matchgoers and season ticket holders in the mix. The last season or two, the idea of away ticket allocations sold through United has become a thing. There are minibuses and carshares.
There's still a lot of suspicion and snobbery from traditional women's football fans about the United fans as we're viewed as noisy new arrivals who don't really understand the etiquette and culture of the women's game. But that's fair enough really, the game is changing and we're part of it.
The idea of an away pub in the men's football sense (where it could be done for safety reasons) doesn't really exist in the women's game. It's more a question of sharing ideas about "football friendly" pubs and places where United fans can meet pre-match.
As for independent teams - it's hard for them. There's no built-in fan base to get you started or even to send a bulk email to. The costs of running a team are getting higher as the number of pro and part time teams increase. You need guaranteed funds to even get a licence as a WSL or WSL2. It's going to feel like pushing water uphill. Unless of course you land an owner, fundraiser or a sponsor who is willing to bankroll it. Gate money alone isn't likely to do the job.
On the independent teams subject, it seems crazy that Lewes did not take the significant investment offered to them last season and now they actually got relegated to the 3rd tier
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...pound-deal-invest-lewes-off-invest-mens-team/
Technically they are not an independent Women's team as they have a Men's team playing far down the pyramid and it was the future of that team that was part of the problem, but it's a rare case of the Women's team being more prominent
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...pound-deal-invest-lewes-off-invest-mens-team/
Technically they are not an independent Women's team as they have a Men's team playing far down the pyramid and it was the future of that team that was part of the problem, but it's a rare case of the Women's team being more prominent
Lewes had a classic non-League club setup - amateur, mostly volunteer run, member owned community club etc. It's very hard to go from that to accepting private investment and inevitably private control and influence.
The women's team adds to the complication. Even the minimum staffing needed to get a licence in WSL2 isn't cheap and the costs are riding. Staying in WSL2 is getting harder as more money arrives. Portsmouth have just been promoted to it and immediately announced that they are going to go full-time.
Thanks for all the answers the questions I posted. I learned a lot.
On the independent teams thing, I suppose I had it in my head that if there was one standing on their own in this era and being successful on and off the pitch it would be a huge statement of just how far the women's game had developed. That's not to say the sport necessarily needs it, or that there's anything wrong with the dominant teams all being clubs that also have a men's side. Was just thinking it would be really good if were to happen.
Very difficult to make it happen as you've all told me in terms of cost and establishing a fanbase etc.
On the independent teams thing, I suppose I had it in my head that if there was one standing on their own in this era and being successful on and off the pitch it would be a huge statement of just how far the women's game had developed. That's not to say the sport necessarily needs it, or that there's anything wrong with the dominant teams all being clubs that also have a men's side. Was just thinking it would be really good if were to happen.
Very difficult to make it happen as you've all told me in terms of cost and establishing a fanbase etc.
You can tell how fast the women’s game is growing by how quickly the world record fee keeps rising. I think Chelsea broke it when we signed Harder in 2020 and that was just £250k. It’s been broken 3 times since then and the record fee is now at £650k.
This is almost 5x more than the current world record fee.
This is almost 5x more than the current world record fee.
She signed an extension a few months ago so don’t think it’s her leaving. Could it be about the racism case that was in news a while ago, perhaps?
Edit: no this is definitely Chelsea briefing all these journalists.
When you are talking £250k to £500k - it's double but still seems like pittance
£3m starts being serious money and then puts higher values on all the best players
The Bonmati transfer would be huge and would really send shockwaves through WSL and the Spanish clubs. Bonmati had talked a few times about the different atmosphere of club and international football in England compared to Spain.
I think, like several Spanish players, she was hoping the WWC win would set a whole new mood for women's football in Spain. Plus Barcelona and a couple of other clubs had already demonstrated that they could draw big crowds for big events (like the CL QF against Real Madrid) - but things really haven't changed much in the League.
Barcelona still don't have a serious rival. League crowds are still very small. I think she genuinely likes the look of how tight a race WSL can be and how lively the WSL crowds are for teams like United even when they play in their (steadily improving in quality) mini stadia.
I hate the idea of her going to Chelsea - she really is a great player. I'll still be shocked if it happens - it would be a huge statement by them. However, with Chelsea setting up a new financial structure for the women's team it's not easy to dismiss.
I think, like several Spanish players, she was hoping the WWC win would set a whole new mood for women's football in Spain. Plus Barcelona and a couple of other clubs had already demonstrated that they could draw big crowds for big events (like the CL QF against Real Madrid) - but things really haven't changed much in the League.
Barcelona still don't have a serious rival. League crowds are still very small. I think she genuinely likes the look of how tight a race WSL can be and how lively the WSL crowds are for teams like United even when they play in their (steadily improving in quality) mini stadia.
I hate the idea of her going to Chelsea - she really is a great player. I'll still be shocked if it happens - it would be a huge statement by them. However, with Chelsea setting up a new financial structure for the women's team it's not easy to dismiss.
Sam Kerr is leaving Chelsea.
Unless that rather ambiguous message means she's signed a new contract and will stay for years.
Unless that rather ambiguous message means she's signed a new contract and will stay for years.
And as if by magic...Unless that rather ambiguous message means she's signed a new contract and will stay for years.
That's a power move if they make it. I can't see Barcelona letting Walsh and Bonmati go in one summer, but maybe it does mean at least one of them is on the move.
Think they tried to get her already last summer.
NewCo, as it is still called, having made a few "kick the can down the road" decisions like the interim TV deal (the old one extended by a year) are now recruiting their management team. This week it's the Chelsea women team commercial director - Zarah Al-Kudcy.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/17/newco-womens-super-league-zarah-al-kudcy
Meanwhile a reminder of how quickly reality bites, Reading are looking at dropping down from the Championship because they can't afford the overheads of running as a semipro team. They'll also be stopping support for their girls academy and U21 teams.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...to-compete-in-womens-championship-next-season
They got relegated from WSL1 to WSL2 at the end of 22/23 season and dropped from full-time to part-time immediately. Reading FC are in serious financial trouble and their possible takeover deal has been stuck for ages. They're currently in the middle of a recruitment and contract renewal freeze.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/17/newco-womens-super-league-zarah-al-kudcy
Meanwhile a reminder of how quickly reality bites, Reading are looking at dropping down from the Championship because they can't afford the overheads of running as a semipro team. They'll also be stopping support for their girls academy and U21 teams.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...to-compete-in-womens-championship-next-season
They got relegated from WSL1 to WSL2 at the end of 22/23 season and dropped from full-time to part-time immediately. Reading FC are in serious financial trouble and their possible takeover deal has been stuck for ages. They're currently in the middle of a recruitment and contract renewal freeze.
Is it normal to have a person associated with one club given a role as part of the team managing the entire league?
I was assuming she was leaving Chelsea to join NewCo. Perhaps not.
It's been suggested that she's joining NewCo to run the revenue development side - which I assume means get sponsors, get broadcasters etc. Maybe that's wrong and she's just a part-time member of the board of directors. Dunno'
I can find nothing about this apart from that article in the Guardian and the wording in that article does it make it sound like she’s leaving Chelsea. Interesting.
WSL revenue up by 50%
The aggregate revenue of Women's Super League clubs went up by 50% to £48m in the 2022-23 season, according to analysis from Deloitte.
That rise followed England winning Euro 2022, with the total predicted to reach £52m for 2023-24 and £68m in 2024-25.
The average attendance in the WSL went up from 1,923 to 5,616 in 2022-23 and, with clubs increasing their use of their main stadiums, cumulative matchday revenues grew to £7m.
It rose again after England reached the final of the 2023 Women’s World Cup, losing to Spain. Cumulative attendance across the WSL and Women's Championship in 2023-24 surpassed one million for the first time.
"WSL clubs are home to world-class players whose success on the international stage has drawn new fans to the domestic game," said Jenny Haskel, knowledge and insight lead in the Deloitte Sports Business Group.
"The soaring revenue growth achieved demonstrates the strides that have been made. However, we’re still in the foothills of growth in the women’s game."
Commercial revenue for 2022-23 was £17m for WSL clubs - £5.2m for Manchester United, £3.6m for Manchester City, £3m for Liverpool and £1.7m for Tottenham.
The top four revenue-generating WSL clubs were Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City and Manchester United, and they accounted for 66% of the total revenue for the division.
Overall, the pre-tax losses of WSL clubs went up to £21m in 2022-23, from £14m the season before.
"Many women’s clubs continue to rely on financial contributions from their wider group structure," said Tim Bridge, lead partner in the Deloitte Sports Business Group.
"However, this is not a new revelation in football where many owners prop up the shortfalls of loss-making clubs.
"It's important the industry does not hold women's clubs to a profitability metric that the wider game has yet to consistently achieve.
"We're seeing significant growth across the women's game and continued investment is key."
An independent club-led body known as NewCo will take over the top two divisions in women's football from next season.
The aggregate revenue of Women's Super League clubs went up by 50% to £48m in the 2022-23 season, according to analysis from Deloitte.
That rise followed England winning Euro 2022, with the total predicted to reach £52m for 2023-24 and £68m in 2024-25.
The average attendance in the WSL went up from 1,923 to 5,616 in 2022-23 and, with clubs increasing their use of their main stadiums, cumulative matchday revenues grew to £7m.
It rose again after England reached the final of the 2023 Women’s World Cup, losing to Spain. Cumulative attendance across the WSL and Women's Championship in 2023-24 surpassed one million for the first time.
"WSL clubs are home to world-class players whose success on the international stage has drawn new fans to the domestic game," said Jenny Haskel, knowledge and insight lead in the Deloitte Sports Business Group.
"The soaring revenue growth achieved demonstrates the strides that have been made. However, we’re still in the foothills of growth in the women’s game."
Commercial revenue for 2022-23 was £17m for WSL clubs - £5.2m for Manchester United, £3.6m for Manchester City, £3m for Liverpool and £1.7m for Tottenham.
The top four revenue-generating WSL clubs were Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City and Manchester United, and they accounted for 66% of the total revenue for the division.
Overall, the pre-tax losses of WSL clubs went up to £21m in 2022-23, from £14m the season before.
"Many women’s clubs continue to rely on financial contributions from their wider group structure," said Tim Bridge, lead partner in the Deloitte Sports Business Group.
"However, this is not a new revelation in football where many owners prop up the shortfalls of loss-making clubs.
"It's important the industry does not hold women's clubs to a profitability metric that the wider game has yet to consistently achieve.
"We're seeing significant growth across the women's game and continued investment is key."
An independent club-led body known as NewCo will take over the top two divisions in women's football from next season.
With Reading FC still struggling to survive as a club, they attempted to get someone to take over just the women's team. Looks like that has failed.
They're still trying to keep the team operational but can't comply with the licence requirements for the championship and may not even be able to cope with the running costs to operate as a Women's National League (South) club.
It is a common story across Women's football.
My niece was within the academy setup of a WSL Championship side a few seasons ago and they turned down potential funding (grant) from the FA when it came to adding more Girls teams to their set up. As after the initial money injection it wouldn't have been financially viable for the club within a couple of seasons to keep them all running and they say "part time" players but that is debatable.
The team she was with last year lost their funding from their League 2 Men's team during cost cuts when covid hit that saw a lot of staff members across the club sadly lose their jobs. They then became independent before linking up with a local 8th tier Men's side, but they have been slowly dropping down the leagues and will be kicking off in the 5th tier next season.
She will be with another tier 5 side's academy next season as they have a program in place with a local school, that allows her to continue her education and to also play/train far more regularly than she has done.
Even when she plays for the county, the budget the county FA has is so stretched it is hard to provide a lot to the Girls.
My niece was within the academy setup of a WSL Championship side a few seasons ago and they turned down potential funding (grant) from the FA when it came to adding more Girls teams to their set up. As after the initial money injection it wouldn't have been financially viable for the club within a couple of seasons to keep them all running and they say "part time" players but that is debatable.
The team she was with last year lost their funding from their League 2 Men's team during cost cuts when covid hit that saw a lot of staff members across the club sadly lose their jobs. They then became independent before linking up with a local 8th tier Men's side, but they have been slowly dropping down the leagues and will be kicking off in the 5th tier next season.
She will be with another tier 5 side's academy next season as they have a program in place with a local school, that allows her to continue her education and to also play/train far more regularly than she has done.
Even when she plays for the county, the budget the county FA has is so stretched it is hard to provide a lot to the Girls.
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