Worst ever best player in the world?

Owen won in a rather blasé season for football; 2001 was a year where there wasn't any World Cup or Euros and Bayern and Valencia contested the CL final. Bayern won on penalties and Oli Kahn was the MOTM. Kahn would've deserved the BdO if he had won it that year, but the voters decided Owen was more exciting even if he didn't score in the EL final and wasn't the top scorer of his domestic league.


They are not, elite attacking players 20 years ago were way more unfit and didn't have to wear GPS trackers or be in prime fitness to press defenders building from the back and win the ball high up the pitch. Football was "easier" and more aesthetic in that a #6 like Scholes/Pirlo or ball-playing CB could ping a long pass down the flanks with no pressure but these days even that is getting harder since the likes of Mbappe and Vini are also insturcted to press and badger defenders so they can't pass under zero pressure. Lisandro's pass to Diallo is what happens when elite forwards like Haaland & Bernardo don't press and let skilled passers have all the time and space in the world to play a nice pass out of defence. Haaland deserved a lot of flak for that, if he can't score he should at least defend from the front. If heavier languid superstars like Riquelme, Rooney, or R9 played today they would be lambasted for being undisciplined lazy fatties who don't press instead of being simply lauded for their tekkers; the fact Rooney and R9 often looked overweight even in their primes shows how elite attackers didn't use to need a high workrate. If Vini or Neymar played in the 2000s they'd have more energy and freedom to showboat like Ronaldinho too. These days elite attackers are all rail-thin with no excess fat because they run and press so much more, wish I could unsee that photo of skinny Haaland next to Noel Gallagher.

You do know Rooney was still playing for Utd 7 years ago? And the idea that he wasn't a hard worker or aggressive presser will be news to people who watched his career.

This idea that players 15 years were playing in some sort of village league period is such a standard young persons view of sports.
 
I don't know why Vinicius is seen as not as good as those who came before him. I guess people have gotten too used to Messi. Kaka, Figo, Rivaldo, Nedved, etc. weren't better than Vini, IMO.
Vini is better than Nedved. The other guys were better than him, but he's still 24. Figo and Rivaldo were 28 and 27 when they won the award. Kaka had his annus mirabilis in his age 24/25 season, but sharply declined afterwards

No reason Vini couldn't reach their level
 
It's interesting how much Ronaldo and Messi altered people's perception of what a "top player" is.

Scoring 50 goals a season for a number of seasons isn't normal.

Haaland managed to have one mad season but struggles to get to that standard every year.

There's a lot of good players now that would have been seen as world class pre 2006.
 
Rooney's late night kebabs and 4am casino jaunts aside, tactics in the 2000s allowed top strikers as a whole to get away with strolling and waiting for the pass instead of defending from the front. Mbappe is called lazy if he doesn't press (i.e. if he played in Rooney's era he won't be criticised for not defending, but Rooney will be criticised harshly if he played in Mbappe's era.... Even back then Rooney was chided for being overweight at the start of every season) but that's because he plays in the 2020s, tactics have evolved a lot such that when I watch clips of Hummels' passes out from defence from the early 2010s it's notable that he's dangerous because even midtable strikers don't bother to press. Contemporary tactics mandate that top CMs and ballplaying CBs like Lisandro can be nullifed if a #9 or #10 is industrious at badgering them. It's also why purely creative CAMs are slowly disappearing from football, and why these days a #10 is required to defend from the front.

Football has unfortunately become a lot less aesthetic and elegant overall because all players are now tactically required to have an off-the-ball workrate that's aimed at taking time and space away from elite creatives like Vini so they can't execute flair moves as much. If Ronaldinho played today he'd get less time on the ball to do his joga bonito AND be told to press the opposing fullback. So it isn't that players today are less creative, it's that tactics have evolved to emphasize defending from the front and pressing to win the ball high so football has gotten "uglier" since the Pirlos and Ronaldinhos of today have less freedom, time, space on the ball and must work like a dog out of possession.
Amazing that you’re doubling down on the Rooney was lazy claim. If Rooney was criticised for anything during his prime it was running around too much and leaving his position to do so.

If anything, he would possibly excel further in today’s game as he would be one of the better pressing attackers about.
 
Rooney's late night kebabs and 4am casino jaunts aside, tactics in the 2000s allowed top strikers as a whole to get away with strolling and waiting for the pass instead of defending from the front. Mbappe is called lazy if he doesn't press (i.e. if he played in Rooney's era he won't be criticised for not defending, but Rooney will be criticised harshly if he played in Mbappe's era.... Even back then Rooney was chided for being overweight at the start of every season) but that's because he plays in the 2020s, tactics have evolved a lot such that when I watch clips of Hummels' passes out from defence from the early 2010s it's notable that he's dangerous because even midtable strikers don't bother to press. Contemporary tactics mandate that top CMs and ballplaying CBs like Lisandro can be nullifed if a #9 or #10 is industrious at badgering them. It's also why purely creative CAMs are slowly disappearing from football, and why these days a #10 is required to defend from the front.

Football has unfortunately become a lot less aesthetic and elegant overall because all players are now tactically required to have an off-the-ball workrate that's aimed at taking time and space away from elite creatives like Vini so they can't execute flair moves as much. If Ronaldinho played today he'd get less time on the ball to do his joga bonito AND be told to press the opposing fullback. So it isn't that players today are less creative, it's that tactics have evolved to emphasize defending from the front and pressing to win the ball high so football has gotten "uglier" since the Pirlos and Ronaldinhos of today have less freedom, time, space on the ball and must work like a dog out of possession.
For some reason you're equating being overweight (which Rooney often was) and unprofessional off the pitch (same) with being lazy on the pitch and not pressing... which couldn't be further forward from the truth, Rooney was one of the most energetic and hard-working strikers... dare I say, ever? Somehow it worked (although, clearly, it wasn't sustainable enough for him to have a long and successful career in his 30's. When his body understandably gave up he never fully recovered, even though his talent was enough to produce moments of quality from time to time).

Some stats from 2011 (not sure if they've already recorded pressing actions back then but the distance covered still backs the eye test):
Against Everton, he covered 7.88miles - more than two miles further than United's average - which was greater than any teammate in each of their last four League games

This is from 2004, I believe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/football/features/newsid_3837000/3837567.stm
How far does Wayne run?
He covers around 11.82km during a match. This is incredibly almost 1km more than Luis Figo's average! And strikers are supposed to do less work.

How much of this is spent sprinting?
This is all broken down into different categories of speed.
  • 4,000m Wayne is walking
  • 4,800m jogging
  • 1500m running
  • 1,000m light sprinting
  • 500m sprinting
Where does Wayne do most work?
As a forward you wouldn't expect him to be in the defensive half. Wrong! Nearly 10% of his time is spent in the defending zone.Surely strikers aren't supposed to be back there! And 31% of his time is spent in and around the penalty box sniffing for goals.
 
Including United in the Champions League Semi Finals if I'm not mistaken.

Quarter finals. And to be fair, Rio and Vidic were both out for that match and we still won 3-2. But yeah, Kaka was a menace that match.

Edit: my bad, it was indeed the semi finals.
 
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You do know Rooney was still playing for Utd 7 years ago?

This idea that players 15 years were playing in some sort of village league period is such a standard young persons view of sports.
Here's a Rooney thread from 7 years ago:

I shouldn't start Rooney debates on a Utd forum but if he was such a hardworking presser as recently as 7 years ago then why did his top flight career end way earlier than Ashley Young or CR7 who are slightly older than Rooney but still active? Blaming genetics or his early debut is iffy because tons of players debut at 16-17 worldwide and in Japan top pros who stay fit can retire in their 40-50s in the lower leagues where the standards are lower. Neymar's injury weight gain (still not as tubby as prime Rooney) proves that genetics are an excuse, if a footballer plays & trains regularly, is mostly teetotal, and eats semi-healthily he would have no problem being lean. Rooney was visibly overweight throughout his career because he drank, smoked, ate late kebabs and visited casinos even when there was a game on Sunday. If he was such a hard worker then there's no reason why it won't reflect in his overall fitness levels or career longevity? Why would coaches not keep him around if he was sprinting 11km every game and why didn't he win a Ballon like Owen since he was much more talented? Blaming genetics makes no sense because basic nutritional science means everyone now knows Calories In Calories Out, today almost no elite or CL-level players have a similar body type as Rooney and the bigger dudes like Adama are all muscle. At the Euros the Hungarian striker Adams was called fat but nobody cares since he plays in Hungary. Utd fans will slate Sancho for video games yet claim Rooney wouldn't get flak for visiting casinos past midnight, eating junk & drinking til he blacked out if he was a young player in 2024? You don't see "genetic fatties" as much now because top flight pros are made to hire private chefs who report back to the club if players don't follow the nutrition plan, iirc Barcelona got upset after Dembele sacked his chef in favor of takeout.

If Rooney was criticised for anything during his prime it was running around too much and leaving his position to do so.
Prime Rooney was mostly criticised for being unfit at the start of every season and needing a month to shed holiday weight (i.e. he doesn't exercise at all in the off-season which wouldn't fly now) so Ferguson would bench him to be a supersub til he lost weight. People let Rooney off because he was very talented yet oft compared him to CR7 who was tenacious, disciplined and hardworking enough to rival Messi for Best Player titles even if he wasn't as naturally talented. CR7 is old now but at his prime he carried RM and Portugal to win its 1st title in 2016. Rooney was probably the more talented player when they both started out at Utd but he never had the level of commitment and hardwork CR7 had to improve and his BdO rankings reflected it.

My point still stands that Mbappe would fit in well if he played in the 2000s or earlier where pressing was uncommon but Rooney would be slated for being unfit while earning 350k a week if he played today. Some are claiming Rooney fits contemporary pressing systems but he would hate it; professional football has only gotten stricter with higher fitness/lifestyle standards and Big Data analysis of players' training sessions to see who deserves starts much less their onfield performances. Players get banned for gambling and chastised for playing too much PlayStation now, the industry has changed from even the early 2000s or even the 1990s when smoking and drugs were no big deal. Much of the change is down to the tactical evolution to prioritise pressing due to Pep and Klopp but I find it a bit of a pity aesthetically because creative players have less time and space to execute their vision now (Vini's ability to do rainbow flicks in this era tells you how good he is, nobody else has the time to execute tricks when pressed), these day a languid #10 will find it harder to break through (Palmer probably didn't make the cut at City due to this) and athletic physical CAMs like Bellingham are prized for their workrate and all-rounded ability to win the ball high up the field and attack near the opponent's goal. Morgan Rogers looks similar.
 
I stopped reading the drivel in the post above.

Anyone who thinks Rooney was not a hard working player has simply never watched him play and is therefore not worth having a discussion about him with.

There’s plenty of reasons people were critical of Rooney by the end - working hard wasn’t one of them.
 
2006 is a good example of world’s worst best player. Zidane retired, Ronaldo way past it, Henry and Ronaldinho slightly past it, Cannavaro and Buffon were not really the best players, Shevchenko past it, Cristiano and Messi still not at their peak.

No idea who really was the best in the world. Probably one of Kaka’, Ronaldinho or Henry with the last two not at their absolute best.
2006 is the best example. But as I said, there are very few examples, generally the winners are superb players who had an incredible season. Cannavaro won in 2006 because, as you said, a lot of the great players of the era had off seasons or were on the wane. Italy, of course, won the World Cup which helped enormously. Ronaldinho came 4th that year and Eto’o 6th, two players in with a shout of winning. Kaka was way down in 10th.

It was year where there wasn’t an outstanding clear cut candidate. Cannavaro was as good a shout as any, and it holds a special place because he’s the last defender to win it. In fact very few ever have. The last I can remember winning it before him was Sammer, who was a sort of sweeper/DM hybrid, and as a side note, an absolutely amazing player.

Looking back at older winners, I was amazed to find Cantona came 3rd in 93 (I think). Back in those days I wasn’t aware of the rankings and was amazed to find how close he was to winning the award. I was also quite proud to see that until Rodri, no other English club had had a winner of the award, other than United, who had Law, Charlton, Best, and Ronaldo all pick up the award as United players.
 
2006 is a good example of world’s worst best player. Zidane retired, Ronaldo way past it, Henry and Ronaldinho slightly past it, Cannavaro and Buffon were not really the best players, Shevchenko past it, Cristiano and Messi still not at their peak.

No idea who really was the best in the world. Probably one of Kaka’, Ronaldinho or Henry with the last two not at their absolute best.
Ronaldinho wasn’t past it in 2006, just because he had a mediocre World Cup and CL final. Was at the peak of his powers and won the league and CL as their best player, his performance against a top Milan team in the CL semi-final was as good as it gets without scoring. That year he was named FifPro Footballer of the Year, UEFA Footballer of the Year, World XI, Don Balon award etc. He was much better than Vini was this year, similarities in letting down at international level being costly at award time.
 
If Rodri, Vinicius and Mbappe are the three best players football has to offer now then look no further than the current era.
 
It was always likely to happen now.

After 15 years of seeing Messi and Ronaldo breaking record after record, whoever followed them was almost certain not to be on the same level!
 
Papin won a ballon d‘or? Maybe misread it and too lazy to look it up but I remember him joining Bayern (or rather he just had joined when I started following them) much heralded but everytime I saw him play it was incredibly underwhelming.
 
I shouldn't start Rooney debates on a Utd forum but if he was such a hardworking presser as recently as 7 years ago then why did his top flight career end way earlier than Ashley Young or CR7 who are slightly older than Rooney but still active?
You see it as a contradiction but the explanation is in your own question. He exploited his own body and its natural athleticism to no end by running around like a mad man without caring for it much. And at some point his body gave up — way earlier than if he would either look after it better (by not drinking, eating properly etc.) or didn't run around as much.

I really don't know why you keep projecting his very real off-the-field issues onto his commitment and work-rate on the pitch. Just because he was a lazy and unprofessional off the pitch doesn't mean that he didn't gave his all on it... it did mean that his career had lasted a lot shorter than it should've been. And I struggle to comprehend how someone who watched Rooney at his athletic peak would think of him as a non-hardworking player.
 
@RoadTrip
https://thebusbyway.com/2013/07/03/...lights-the-difference-between-ronaldo-rooney/ It's possible for him to be an all-action physically powerful striker who is an unselfish team player versatile enough to play multiple positions in midfield (that's down to his passing skills) yet still lack the commitment, drive, work ethic, to reach his full potential which most agree Rooney didn't reach. In a way Bellingham is a similar sort of player and everyone would agree Rooney was more gifted technically but never hit the highs he could hit. He scored only 1(?) World Cup goal and admitted to alcoholism in his early 20s, but despite lacking discipline/work ethic he still scored a lot and played everywhere for Utd because he was very gifted technically and physically with power/agility. Lower league football is full of players who play multiple positions in defence and attack e.g. Klopp and tackle hard even if they are unfit but nobody would call them hardworking; Rooney was pretty much an ultra-talented elite version of an unfit Sunday league player who turns up to play on weekends and gives 120% but doesn't workout or watch their diet otherwise. By his mid to late 20s the game was too pacy for him and it wasn't injuries but his lifestyle, IDK how he can be held up as a paradigm of hard work to other young players when Rooney largely coasted on talent alone to make up for his deficiencies.
 
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Here's a Rooney thread from 7 years ago:

I shouldn't start Rooney debates on a Utd forum but if he was such a hardworking presser as recently as 7 years ago then why did his top flight career end way earlier than Ashley Young or CR7 who are slightly older than Rooney but still active? Blaming genetics or his early debut is iffy because tons of players debut at 16-17 worldwide and in Japan top pros who stay fit can retire in their 40-50s in the lower leagues where the standards are lower. Neymar's injury weight gain (still not as tubby as prime Rooney) proves that genetics are an excuse, if a footballer plays & trains regularly, is mostly teetotal, and eats semi-healthily he would have no problem being lean. Rooney was visibly overweight throughout his career because he drank, smoked, ate late kebabs and visited casinos even when there was a game on Sunday. If he was such a hard worker then there's no reason why it won't reflect in his overall fitness levels or career longevity? Why would coaches not keep him around if he was sprinting 11km every game and why didn't he win a Ballon like Owen since he was much more talented? Blaming genetics makes no sense because basic nutritional science means everyone now knows Calories In Calories Out, today almost no elite or CL-level players have a similar body type as Rooney and the bigger dudes like Adama are all muscle. At the Euros the Hungarian striker Adams was called fat but nobody cares since he plays in Hungary. Utd fans will slate Sancho for video games yet claim Rooney wouldn't get flak for visiting casinos past midnight, eating junk & drinking til he blacked out if he was a young player in 2024? You don't see "genetic fatties" as much now because top flight pros are made to hire private chefs who report back to the club if players don't follow the nutrition plan, iirc Barcelona got upset after Dembele sacked his chef in favor of takeout.


Prime Rooney was mostly criticised for being unfit at the start of every season and needing a month to shed holiday weight (i.e. he doesn't exercise at all in the off-season which wouldn't fly now) so Ferguson would bench him to be a supersub til he lost weight. People let Rooney off because he was very talented yet oft compared him to CR7 who was tenacious, disciplined and hardworking enough to rival Messi for Best Player titles even if he wasn't as naturally talented. CR7 is old now but at his prime he carried RM and Portugal to win its 1st title in 2016. Rooney was probably the more talented player when they both started out at Utd but he never had the level of commitment and hardwork CR7 had to improve and his BdO rankings reflected it.

My point still stands that Mbappe would fit in well if he played in the 2000s or earlier where pressing was uncommon but Rooney would be slated for being unfit while earning 350k a week if he played today. Some are claiming Rooney fits contemporary pressing systems but he would hate it; professional football has only gotten stricter with higher fitness/lifestyle standards and Big Data analysis of players' training sessions to see who deserves starts much less their onfield performances. Players get banned for gambling and chastised for playing too much PlayStation now, the industry has changed from even the early 2000s or even the 1990s when smoking and drugs were no big deal. Much of the change is down to the tactical evolution to prioritise pressing due to Pep and Klopp but I find it a bit of a pity aesthetically because creative players have less time and space to execute their vision now (Vini's ability to do rainbow flicks in this era tells you how good he is, nobody else has the time to execute tricks when pressed), these day a languid #10 will find it harder to break through (Palmer probably didn't make the cut at City due to this) and athletic physical CAMs like Bellingham are prized for their workrate and all-rounded ability to win the ball high up the field and attack near the opponent's goal. Morgan Rogers looks similar.

We clearly have different interpretations of hard work/workrate. Ronaldo indeed put in more hard yards in training and perfecting his craft, but there’s absolutely no way he was ever as hard working as Rooney on the pitch. I mean, even when they played alongside each other for 5 years, Rooney was renowned for doing Ronaldo’s running and dirty work for him.

The continued comparison to clearly less hard working players, in particular Sancho, who has not even come close to maximising his ability is absurd.

Rooney wasted some of his prime and shortened his career due to his life choices, for sure, but your assumption he would get lambasted today is also off. Fans will forgive some off field issues if players continue to produce on the field, which Rooney did for many years. Players like Sancho are a waste of space because they do not have the pride of a Rooney to go out and give their best every game.
 
Vini is better than Nedved. The other guys were better than him, but he's still 24. Figo and Rivaldo were 28 and 27 when they won the award. Kaka had his annus mirabilis in his age 24/25 season, but sharply declined afterwards

No reason Vini couldn't reach their level

Move Vini to PSG and he is done, move him to Liverpool and he would not even start week in week out. He is not in the Figo, Nedved bracket, not even in the Neymar bracket: he is “just” the PR frontman of a perfectly oiled machine.
 
Kaka absolutely deserves to be mentioned in this thread for 2007. He was amazing, in what, 5 CL games. In serie A he a was good but not much more than that, and at least a level below Totti. Zlatan and Pirlo probably were better in the league from the city of Milan alone. And he skipped Copa.

Not saying he is the worst, but he is definitely in the conversation.
 
For some reason you're equating being overweight (which Rooney often was) and unprofessional off the pitch (same) with being lazy on the pitch and not pressing... which couldn't be further forward from the truth, Rooney was one of the most energetic and hard-working strikers... dare I say, ever? Somehow it worked (although, clearly, it wasn't sustainable enough for him to have a long and successful career in his 30's. When his body understandably gave up he never fully recovered, even though his talent was enough to produce moments of quality from time to time).

Some stats from 2011 (not sure if they've already recorded pressing actions back then but the distance covered still backs the eye test):


This is from 2004, I believe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/football/features/newsid_3837000/3837567.stm

There is a misconception that every player from current day is better and fitter than every player from x years ago. It is not completely false, but it is an oversimplification:
  • The average player is fitter, faster, and more tactically aware than the average player from years ago, that's true but that doesn't apply to every player uniformly. You can't pluck any player from now, compare them against some time in history, and assume they are fitter than most
  • The other thing is this "athletes are always fitter now than the past" is a process that is relatively slow. You can say that with certainty across a wider distribution of players from 50 years ago, and that certainty and the size of the effect is smaller over a 5-10 year period.

If I was to sum up the words with a chart of how fit players are over time and how it would look like, I think it would end up looking like this

Qajv6JT.png


The difference between the least fit semi-pro and the fittest elite athlete widens over time, the average goes up, but the trendline is slow (but almost certainly not linear), and there are tons of overlaps between periods, especially as the periods get closer to one another.
 
Rodri is a worthy Ballon D'Or winner and will go down as an iconic holding midfielder without a doubt IMO. Ridiculously complete and brilliant player.

He's not a Ronaldo, R9, Ronaldinho or Messi. But below that tier is where I'd put him in worthiness which is fine.

And no, Vini or Mbappe are not the best players in the world. They aren't as good or impactful as Rodri. Mbappe has already declined from the force of nature he was as a player when he first broke through. He's lost some agility and explosiveness and it's made him worse. Vini needs to start performing for Brazil for him to truly stand out. Such is life when you play for the club super power and an international super power, you gotta perform at both.

Owen and Cannavaro for me as the 2 worst. Owen is on a tier of his own, he was never a ballon D'Or top 10 level player let alone winning quality. Ouu he won a Uefa Cup, league cup and fa cup... Come on. Ridiculous Liverpool propaganda push for that. Cannavaro had a great World Cup but given how few defenders have won it... It feels wrong for him to be the one who has.
 
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If Rodri, Vinicius and Mbappe are the three best players football has to offer now then look no further than the current era.
Nah, the late 70's-early 80's after the decline of Cruyff and Beckenbauer and appearance of Maradona are much worse. Allan Simonsen and Kevin Keegan won the Ballon d'or for f sakes.
 
If Rodri, Vinicius and Mbappe are the three best players football has to offer now then look no further than the current era.
This, atleast since around 2002 when I personally started watching. The entire 30 man Balland'or list as well as the Teams of the Year currently are shocking when you compare it to those of the previous decade or two.
 
Rodri - Brilliant footballer but nothing to take your breath away

Vini Jnr - Capable of the incredible but if you were honest against previous Brazilians alone he doesn't take your breath away

Mbappe - Simply one of the most overrated footballers that's ever been and it's totally gone to his head. I honestly think in a different era without the money and the media attention he'd have become a better player, instead the whole things gone to his head.

This year's list was easily the weakest ever.