Winter Olympics 2022

[Grylte]

There was never any fight for silver - Klaebo would have beaten Manificat even on one leg.

There is a difference between him and Peter Northug - the latter always gave his all for the team, always tried to at least shorten the gap. Klaebo doesn’t.

You just chose to ignore the part where i said this was a team decision, and not Klæbo alone?

Don't know where you're from, but not Norway i guess (since you didn't use the æ in his name ). Winter sports and cross country skiing in particular, is very big here, we have professionals in the studio discussing before and after a race. Former athletes and coaches pretty much every time. They all, including the commentators, talk about these things, and they all seemed to agree that this is a team decision.
Klæbo wouldn't get gold no matter how much he tried. Sure, the Russian was chilling with the flag and not exactly doing his best to improve his race time, but had Klæbo tried to catch him, he would have done much better too, so we can't look at the difference between the teams.Dæhlie, Ulvang, Alsgård, Northug, or even Bjørgen or Johaug, would have done exactly the same. Can't catch first, make sure to win second.
It makes sense because they wouldn't catch Russia, and the team also want to save Klæbo for the next race, the whole team and country want Klæbo to do well in the future race, and not risk anything.

I can assure you, there hasn't been written or said a single word about this in Norwegian media, i think you might be the only person who wants to discuss it

 

[Skåre Willoch]

There was never any fight for silver - Klaebo would have beaten Manificat even on one leg.

There is a difference between him and Peter Northug - the latter always gave his all for the team, always tried to at least shorten the gap. Klaebo doesn’t.

You're missing the point, mate. If Klæbo went all out to catch the Russian, it might've very well cost us the silver medal, and potentially even more.
Did you see Tandrevold yesterday? Right in the mix for a silver medal with 1 kilometer to go, but pushed to hard. Due to the altitude, it was the most costly mistake she could've made both for herself and for the team. She totally collapsed and won't even be able to compete for the rest of the olympics. Not only did she lose out on medals entirely, but she also hurt our chances for medals in the relay later on, and her own chances for a good position on the mass start. Also - the difference between Northug and Klæbo is that Klæbo is already a better olympian than Northug, largely due to his tactical nous, and him being the better skier overall. He knew (and most likely was told by the coaches as well) it would be stupid to risk the rest of the olympics to try - and most likely fail - to win a gold medal at that stage in the race. That said, I think Northug would've made the exact same decision as Klæbo. Even he wouldn't risk it all when the odds were as stacked against him as they were yesterday. There's a difference between being confident and stupid.

Also, the fact is that literally everyone (experts, former gold medal skiers, coaches) seem to agree that using Iversen was at the very best a strange decision, and most likely simply the wrong decision. I'm yet to see a single person defending the decision, the closest being "we can't blame Iversen" (which I obviously agree with, Iversen himself tried his best). We made this exact same mistake in PeyongChang, when an out of form Tønseth was used even though it was obvious there were other (probably better) options. Hindsight is always 20/20 and so on, but concerns were raised before the race started in this case.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

In other news – Riiber is seemingly out of isolation!

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

The ice hockey men’s format must be the dumbest thing I have ever seen. They start with 12 teams in 3 groups of 4 . After the groups stage the group toppers got direct entry to QF while all the other 8 teams go into a pre quarterfinal. So basically all 12 teams advance from the groups. Canada beat China 5-0 yesterday and now they are playing China again tomorrow in the pre quarterfinal stage

 

[Alemar]

@Skåre Willoch @Grylte
Thanks for detailed responses guys.

If it was a team/coach decision, than it is fair enough. In this case I would like to revoke my words about Klaebo related to his lack of effort for the team.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

@Skåre Willoch @Grylte
Thanks for detailed responses guys.

If it was a team/coach decision, than it is fair enough. In this case I would like to revoke my words about Klaebo related to his lack of effort for the team.

When you open a can of cross country worms, us noggies will certainly provide a detailed response! Both Iversen and Klæbo tried their best. I'm sure the coaches tried their best as well, but they got it wrong. Again. Simple as.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

The ice hockey men’s format must be the dumbest thing I have ever seen. They start with 12 teams in 3 groups of 4 . After the groups stage the group toppers got direct entry to QF while all the other 8 teams go into a pre quarterfinal. So basically all 12 teams advance from the groups. Canada beat China 5-0 yesterday and now they are playing China again tomorrow in the pre quarterfinal stage

Pretty much. I think they knew that China would suck so bad in their group that the IIHF were fine with giving an extra game for them instead of letting them sit at home as they should right now. It just makes no sense anymore to have possibly another beating along the way when every team had 3 games to go into the knockout rounds.

 

[Dans]

Did China just fudge it again in the speed skating

You mean by false starting the competition even though there's no hint of movement?

 

[Grylte]

@Skåre Willoch @Grylte
Thanks for detailed responses guys.

If it was a team/coach decision, than it is fair enough. In this case I would like to revoke my words about Klaebo related to his lack of effort for the team.

No worries, mate, as Skåre said, we get defensive when it comes to one of the few sports we're good at!

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Anyone here wanting to discuss about the CAS decision to let Kamila Valieva compete despite the public knowledge that she is a doped cheat? I find the decision just morally reprehensible despite the shit that the CAS spokesperson said about how "preventing the athlete to compete at the Olympics would cause her irreparable harm". Are we supposed to cry about her speculative fate if she got a ban instead? There are dozens and hundreds of athletes out there still work their socks off to be competitive without cheating. Worse than that, it sends the message that it's okay to dope in certain circumstances even though rules are supposed to apply to everyone. Juicing up a teenager so she can compete at the Olympics, just gross.

If I were among the remaining non-Russian figure skaters due to compete in the women's event, I would push to get as many fellow competitors to be on board in demanding the bad apple to get expelled. The dressing room needs to rise up now.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Anyone here wanting to discuss about the CAS decision to let Kamila Valieva compete despite the public knowledge that she is a doped cheat? I find the decision just morally reprehensible despite the shit that the CAS spokesperson said about how "preventing the athlete to compete at the Olympics would cause her irreparable harm". Are we supposed to cry about her speculative fate if she got a ban instead? There are dozens and hundreds of athletes out there still work their socks off to be competitive without cheating. Worse than that, it sends the message that it's okay to dope in certain circumstances even though rules are supposed to apply to everyone. Juicing up a teenager so she can compete at the Olympics, just gross.

If I were among the remaining non-Russian figure skaters due to compete in the women's event, I would push to get as many fellow competitors to be on board in demanding the bad apple to get expelled. The dressing room needs to rise up now.

I think the issue is her age right? shes not of the age where she can be making these decisions herself. Shes either been pushed into it or misled.

I know nothing about ice skating, I hadn't watched her performance until I googled her - but wow she is very impressive. Doing that sort of performance at 15 years old is incredible.

I don't think PED's could really make her be able to do those type of spins right? they're more about making you recover faster, so your body can train more often?

I've never heard about drug taking in such a young person before, it's a big shame this has been allowed to happen. Russia need to get their shit together.

 

[Alemar]

Anyone here wanting to discuss about the CAS decision to let Kamila Valieva compete despite the public knowledge that she is a doped cheat?

There is no public knowledge of her being a cheat, yet. Even IOC itself states that as of now, her possible violation of anti-doping regulation is not proved, and it is an open case.

There is knowledge of A-sample (from 25th December 21) being positive - there are several theoretical possibilities why it could happen:
- she/her team cheated
- she was sabotaged
- she took another (allowed) medicine with traces of this substance (contaminated product)
- testing procedure failed for whatever reason

Some of these possibilities, if proved, would result in no anti-doping violation (hence no sanctions whatever), others would lead to sanctions. But at this point in time we just don’t know - and that’s exactly what CAS said in its press-release.

And CAS also specifically added that there was a big problem with testing laboratory not doing it’s tests in a timely manner (so perhaps something was wrong on the lab side, too).

That said, and understanding that Russia is not the most loved nation in sports world currently, CAS wouldn’t have taken the decision to approve of suspension uplift without serious reasons - so it may be premature to call her a cheat. Let’s wait for investigations and findings

 

[Wilt]

There is no public knowledge of her being a cheat, yet. Even IOC itself states that as of now, her possible violation of anti-doping regulation is not proved, and it is an open case.

There is knowledge of A-sample (from 25th December 21) being positive - there are several theoretical possibilities why it could happen:
- she/her team cheated
- she was sabotaged
- she took another (allowed) medicine with traces of this substance (contaminated product)
- testing procedure failed for whatever reason

Some of these possibilities, if proved, would result in no anti-doping violation (hence no sanctions whatever), others would lead to sanctions. But at this point in time we just don’t know - and that’s exactly what CAS said in its press-release.

And CAS also specifically added that there was a big problem with testing laboratory not doing it’s tests in a timely manner (so perhaps something was wrong on the lab side, too).

That said, and understanding that Russia is not the most loved nation in sports world currently, CAS wouldn’t have taken the decision to approve of suspension uplift without serious reasons - so it may be premature to call her a cheat. Let’s wait for investigations and findings

Agree.

While I think she should not be allowed to compete, I would stop short at calling her a “drug cheat” as I‘d be surprised if she had any prior knowledge to any drug use.

Valieva could be the victim here. Wait for the investigation so hopefully the truth can be revealed.

 

[Grylte]

I love biathlon!

 

[nimic]

I love biathlon!

It's easily the best winter sport.

 

[Alemar]

Very dramatic biathlon relay, needs to be said. Christensen perfect on his leg, and Latypov threw everything away himself.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

What a day in Beijing so far, and it's not even over yet!

 

[Alemar]

What a day in Beijing so far, and it's not even over yet!

Any forecasts for tomorrow’s team sprints in cross country skiing?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Any forecasts for tomorrow’s team sprints in cross country skiing?

On the mens side, the Russians are quite solid favorites I believe, but if Klæbo is not too far behind on the last leg, I think Norway can pull it off. The team sprint is a very different animal to the regular sprint. Bolshunov* will prove to be a lot better here (he didn't even compete in the regular sprint), I think, as his capacity will be needed a lot more. He can break Klæbo in the earlier parts of the race if he goes hard from the beginning, and Valnes will struggle to keep up with whoever (not only the Russians). Italy and France are solid outsiders.

Sweden are the obvious favorites on the female side, by quite some distance. I don't really see who can challenge them. USA, maybe? USA, Norway, Germany and Russia will fight for the remaining medals.

Predictions men:
1. Russia
2. Norway
3. France

Predictions women:
1. Sweden
2. USA
3. Norway

(* I'm not even sure Bolshunov will start this ahead of Maltsev or Terentjev, but given the nature of the race I'd be very surprised if he doesn't.)

 

[Foxbatt]

There is no public knowledge of her being a cheat, yet. Even IOC itself states that as of now, her possible violation of anti-doping regulation is not proved, and it is an open case.

There is knowledge of A-sample (from 25th December 21) being positive - there are several theoretical possibilities why it could happen:
- she/her team cheated
- she was sabotaged
- she took another (allowed) medicine with traces of this substance (contaminated product)
- testing procedure failed for whatever reason

Some of these possibilities, if proved, would result in no anti-doping violation (hence no sanctions whatever), others would lead to sanctions. But at this point in time we just don’t know - and that’s exactly what CAS said in its press-release.

And CAS also specifically added that there was a big problem with testing laboratory not doing it’s tests in a timely manner (so perhaps something was wrong on the lab side, too).

That said, and understanding that Russia is not the most loved nation in sports world currently, CAS wouldn’t have taken the decision to approve of suspension uplift without serious reasons - so it may be premature to call her a cheat. Let’s wait for investigations and findings

Yes and the test was done in December and the results in February. The time line is under 10 days. This is a huge issue according to CAS. All these people make a huge cry when a Russian or a Chinese has an issue.
Her grandfather takes that same medication it is being said. She was tested negative before the Olympics.
Let's wait for the investigation to finish.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

There is no public knowledge of her being a cheat, yet. Even IOC itself states that as of now, her possible violation of anti-doping regulation is not proved, and it is an open case.

There is knowledge of A-sample (from 25th December 21) being positive - there are several theoretical possibilities why it could happen:
- she/her team cheated
- she was sabotaged
- she took another (allowed) medicine with traces of this substance (contaminated product)
- testing procedure failed for whatever reason

Some of these possibilities, if proved, would result in no anti-doping violation (hence no sanctions whatever), others would lead to sanctions. But at this point in time we just don’t know - and that’s exactly what CAS said in its press-release.

And CAS also specifically added that there was a big problem with testing laboratory not doing it’s tests in a timely manner (so perhaps something was wrong on the lab side, too).

That said, and understanding that Russia is not the most loved nation in sports world currently, CAS wouldn’t have taken the decision to approve of suspension uplift without serious reasons - so it may be premature to call her a cheat. Let’s wait for investigations and findings

Apparently she (may have) drank from the same glass that her grandfather took his heart medicine with/from (youd think she’d use a different glass but possible).

Would have thought she’d have asked for her B sample to be tested?

(edit. In its ruling, Cas said banning Valieva “would cause her irreparable harm”.)

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Riiber blows a 44 second lead by going the wrong way!

 

[Alemar]

(* I'm not even sure Bolshunov will start this ahead of Maltsev or Terentjev, but given the nature of the race I'd be very surprised if he doesn't.)

As I understand it’s Bolshunov-Terentiev tomorrow, with Terentiev vs Klaebo on the last leg (unless Valnes finishes for Norway which is unlikely). So it is essentially a question of whether Bolshunov creates a big enough gap vs Valnes.

With regards to women, does Sweden team have good enough classic style sprinters? In individual sprint it was free style

 

[Skåre Willoch]

As I understand it’s Bolshunov-Terentiev tomorrow, with Terentiev vs Klaebo on the last leg (unless Valnes finishes for Norway which is unlikely). So it is essentially a question of whether Bolshunov creates a big enough gap vs Valnes

A, cheers. Didn't know where to check the russian lineup! If it's Bolshunov vs Valnes, I think it's virtually impossible for Norway to get anything from this. I don't see how Valnes will be able to keep up with Bolshunov over three legs, the gap between Russia and Norway on the last leg has the potential to be huge.

 

[Alemar]

A, cheers. Didn't know where to check the russian lineup! If it's Bolshunov vs Valnes, I think it's virtually impossible for Norway to get anything from this. I don't see how Valnes will be able to keep up with Bolshunov over three legs, the gap between Russia and Norway on the last leg has the potential to be huge.

There is also Niskanen who is in the form of his life… If they get another one they may win it too

 

[Skåre Willoch]

There is also Niskanen who is in the form of his life… If they get another one they may win it too

Sure, and Maki is a very decent sprinter. Unfair of me to not mention them as outsiders, especially considering it's a classic style sprint. Thinking about it, they're right up there with Norway, and if Niskanen has a race like he did on the relay, they can actually win gold.

 

[Alemar]

Sure, and Maki is a very decent sprinter. Unfair of me to not mention them as outsiders, especially considering it's a classic style sprint.

May be very interesting. Terentiev is also good
(and he even once won the finish vs Klaebo - I don’t think anyone but him and Valnes ever did it).

So if it’s Niskanen on the first leg, they may work 3 laps together with Bolshunov, and Maki will decide it vs Terentiev in the end. Valnes won’t be able to keep up if Niskanen and Bolshunov work together

 

[Samid]

3 golds and 2 silver today. A minor consolation after our darkest day yesterday where we didn't pick up any medals.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

May be very interesting. Terentiev is also good
(and he even once won the finish vs Klaebo - I don’t think anyone but him and Valnes ever did it).

So if it’s Niskanen on the first leg, they may work 3 laps together with Bolshunov, and Maki will decide it vs Terentiev in the end. Valnes won’t be able to keep up if Niskanen and Bolshunov work together

If Niskanen and Bolshunov goes hard from the start, Norway is out of the race before it's even started!

 

[Skåre Willoch]

3 golds and 2 silver today. A minor consolation after our darkest day yesterday where we didn't pick up any medals.

And what a way to win these medals! It's always darkest before the dawn, etc. The Riiber collapse and having to gain two minutes on the biathlon relay. Unbelievable!

 

[Alemar]

If Niskanen and Bolshunov goes hard from the start, Norway is out of the race before it's even started!

I checked, it is indeed Niskanen-Maki for Finland. So Niskanen and Bolshunov will work together vs Valnes

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I checked, it is indeed Niskanen-Maki for Finland. So Niskanen and Bolshunov will work together vs Valnes

Poor Valnes. Go Finland, then!

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

(edit. In its ruling, Cas said banning Valieva “would cause her irreparable harm”.)

Why did the CAS have to bring that part though? I just do not understand the need for that part, as if we are supposed to take her into some form of pity because she's only 15. Meanwhile there have been many young athletes getting the axe without such sympathy capital around them whenever they get caught.

For the record, Canada had a sprint canoer who tested positive for traces of ligandrol in 2019. It resulted in a ban from competition before that athlete denied knowingly taking a forbidden substance. The ban lasted between the day the positive result came up and the moment when she was cleared in a hearing in front of the International Canoe Federation (ICF), with enough time before the Tokyo Olympics. My point is that athletes usually get axed immediately after a positive result becomes public, and then have to defend their cases later in the main court of their discipline. Why not with Valieva and her entourage though?

 

[nimic]

3 golds and 2 silver today. A minor consolation after our darkest day yesterday where we didn't pick up any medals.

Wasn't there like one medal event we participated in yesterday?

We definitely made up for it today, though. I don't think we'll end up beating the medal total from Pyeongchang, a ludicrous 39, but with a bit of luck we could beat the gold record from the same games (14).

I sometimes have to remind myself that we're still good at the Winter Olympics. Torino looms large in my memory, and that was a complete disaster.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I sometimes have to remind myself that we're still good at the Winter Olympics. Torino looms large in my memory, and that was a complete disaster.

Wow, I think you need to appreciate the good times more, considering we've won 59 olympic gold medals (and 68 silver/bronze) since Torino!

 

[nimic]

We'll need at least a hundred golds before I forget about Torino.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

We'll need at least a hundred golds before I forget about Torino.

You'll have forgotten Torino by the end of 2026, then.

 

[nimic]

 

[Alemar]

Why not with Valieva and her entourage though?

Because of irreversible harm. Missing Olympics would be irreversible harm in case she is later found not guilty - and it was “courtesy” of testing laboratory that testing results came in much later (so that neither Valieva had time to defend herself before the games nor ROC had a chance to change an athlete).

If - which is clearly a possibility considering what signal IOC president sent earlier today - it is indeed a contaminated product, then there will be no anti-doping violation and no sanctions. Hence CAS was right - if she is found guilty in the end, it’s easier to strip her off a medal than to invent a time machine in case she is not guilty but missed a tournament due to being suspended

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Because of irreversible harm. Missing Olympics would be irreversible harm in case she is later found not guilty - and it was “courtesy” of testing laboratory that testing results came in much later (so that neither Valieva had time to defend herself before the games nor ROC had a chance to change an athlete).

If - which is clearly a possibility considering what signal IOC president sent earlier today - it is indeed a contaminated product, then there will be no anti-doping violation and no sanctions. Hence CAS was right - if she is found guilty in the end, it’s easier to strip her off a medal than to invent a time machine in case she is not guilty but missed a tournament due to being suspended

I guess the challenge (like with @RedDevilQuebecois post above) is that a lot of athletes get banned quickly with little/no leeway apparent. This case seems to be different.