I’m more talking about the strong visceral emotion that people have for him. It would be a very tiny minority that feel that way about Nelson in 2020. My wording was clumsy.
Winston Churchill
- Thread starter Cascarino
- Start date
I’m more talking about the strong visceral emotion that people have for him. It would be a very tiny minority that feel that way about Nelson in 2020. My wording was clumsy.
I recognize your point about the electoral system. This is why I repeated multiple times above about the rise of Islamophobia, right wing leaders like Trump and Boris. This isn't a single isolated issue, but a result of decades of choosing not to fix multiple ones. And when opportunities do arise for us to address it, we still get the tired, repetitive argument about winning the war, he was a leader with balls, etc. It will only continue to get worse unless we change our approach and change things on a fundamental level.
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Ghandi, playgrounds, whataboutism, balls in courts (is that tennis?), prevaricating .... quite a list of honours on your bow
I thought what you said was very simple and easy to understand, but thats just me.
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The irony.
Ive never deflcted. You just dont like my answers. Very different.The irony.
And still waiting for you to answer the actual post.
It seems you do deflect. You're notorious on here for doing so.
Well no-one from this constituency has yet to answer the very best question Ive seen asked in this thread. I also love to know!
Removing a statue doesnt 'erase' history. We have things like books, TV, internet, netflix, youtube, Instagram, TikTok which are far better tools to give a far richer documentation of a nations history, so I agree, what is the problem?
Seems as though I have an impact on you, which is flattering for me.
You simply don't like what I write and can't find a response to change my opinion. So you then cry 'deflect ... he is a deflector' as though it's some sort of capital crime. I find it funny.
Am still waiting for you to answer that post. Or will you keep deflecting?
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You need to take a lie down.
I haven't said remove it. In that post, I was just responding that removing it doesn't remove it from history, as Boris and others in this thread have suggested.
I said I'd like to hear from that constituency. I think @SilentWitness was asking for responses from people who admire Churchill for his role in WW2, but insist they are not to be represented by the right wing thugs in Whitehall today.
I said I'd like to hear from that constituency. I think @SilentWitness was asking for responses from people who admire Churchill for his role in WW2, but insist they are not to be represented by the right wing thugs in Whitehall today.
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Am still waiting you you to answer that post.
It’s not an offensive view. Nobody is saying that.
I’d argue that Churchill’s importance to Britain, his leadership and his contribution to winning the war is worthy of recognition in the form of a statue.
I don’t think you’d find many outside of the mouth breathers doing nazi salutes today claiming other things he did or views he held aren’t racist.
Doesn’t mean he can’t be recognised for the good that he did.
till this interminable debate nobody looked at the statues as a historical monument to a complicated guy. they were the uncontroversial statues of a war and national hero.
it took this violent mob for many people to even realise that churchill was a massive racist, who acted on his racism with murderous effects. this mob has done a better job educating the public at large about the man depicted in the statue, than the monument itself. says something about the historical/educational value of just having statues.
What you rambling on about now? The post that your pal was calling people racist in?
I hope people that have suddenly had a rush of righteous enlightenment, look into whether their grandparents and further down their family tree were racist and had race supremacy issues, because chances are there's a high possibility they were. And if you don't like what you find I hope you take down and destroy any photos of them...
This is what all the "protesters" looking to tear things down should be prepared to subject themselves to, and if they refuse, the mob needs to ransack their homes to destroy any memorabilia of them....
Or
Let the alternative of rational and objective thinking win
This is what all the "protesters" looking to tear things down should be prepared to subject themselves to, and if they refuse, the mob needs to ransack their homes to destroy any memorabilia of them....
Or
Let the alternative of rational and objective thinking win
Yeah that’s for sure the same thing.
Of course it won't happen, the British public will always revere Churchill for what he did in WW2.
The protests are following a familiar route. In the UK at least the original BLM cause is slowly being hijacked by a rent-a-mob who seemingly just want to be seen there or cause trouble. All the violence and vandalism is doing is turning the majority against the whole thing and diluting what the protests are actually about. The people filmed pulling that Colston statue down were white millenials, soon they will have another bandwagon to latch on to and the people who are actually affected by racism and genuinely care about BLM will be left out in the cold.
I hope that the BLM protestors have the energy and commitment to continue to demonstrate, they need to pressure the news media and advertisers to continue supporting them and eventually, sooner much rather than later force a government in the UK to actually effect real change, whatever that needs to be. BLM have done the right thing today in allowing the 'Lads' to show themselves up, ridicule will hopefully lighten their ranks over time. Maybe the BLM will outlast any splinter groups and either combine in their aims or focus on changing minds. There have to be more people affected by Racism and their supporters in all of these countries then there are with non-complimentary agendas. I hope at least.
Enticing mob violence and propagating hate speech. Classy.
It's incredible how many people in this thread have genuinely missed the point by a factor of miles.
Im sorry but this is complete bollocks. If you want to commemorate or celebrate the defeat of Nazism or other important victories for human progress you'd go to the Cenotaph, the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the statue of Edward Jenner, Florence Nightingale etc to remember those who were sacrificed in the fight and those who both contributed significantly and are fully worthy of veneration. If you're going to a statue of Churchill you're doing it because you think he specifically was some sort of great man or hero. After all, he didn't die in a foxhole, he sat there getting pissed and smoking cigars, occasionally condemning some more men to death. He was important in ensuring the victory but he's not someone we should be venerating specifically when tens of millions of people worldwide died and he was responsible for plenty of them. He wants to be a lot more admirable to have a statue of him with not even an explanation of his life for context. Or at least the Cenotaph ought to be a million times bigger than his statue if it comes to it.
In fact the whole of Pall Mall is pretty disgusting really when you think about it, celebrating a load of old dudes who went and did a lot of killing people in various places. The sheer number of Britons who changed the world in amazing and radical ways but the ones we pick out to celebrate in the heart of government are largely just old military men with questionable morals. Artists, philosophers, authors, musicians, playwrights, scientists, engineers, even business people or genuine philanthropists but no, fat old slaughtery men with royal connections is as imaginative as we get.
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One of the most stupid posts in this thread so far. Which is nearly impressive.
I'm all for the BLM (peaceful) protests - but I fully disagree with the opinion that the Churchill statue should be removed. I have never seen the statue, neither will it affect my life in any way if it goes or stays - but at the end of the day, the man is a monumental figure in British history. His views back in the day, in today's day and age, are horrific but he played a huge role in guiding the downfall of Hitler's fachist reign.
Many huge/popular figures in history have mean streaks in them. Some white, some black, some from other cultures.
If you remove traces of every historical figure who had questionable morals, then there'll be no statues/monuments of anyone.
The Churchill statue isn't there to celebrate his racial views - its to pay respect to the man who played a role in defeating Hitler.
Many huge/popular figures in history have mean streaks in them. Some white, some black, some from other cultures.
If you remove traces of every historical figure who had questionable morals, then there'll be no statues/monuments of anyone.
The Churchill statue isn't there to celebrate his racial views - its to pay respect to the man who played a role in defeating Hitler.
I think it should be subject to a vote. If a majority of citizens in the vicinity have an issue with the statue it should be removed and placed elsewhere
That's a terrible post. Its not the worst I've ever seen but it's up there.
Are you trying to claim Churchill was only racist in his private life and his views didn't directly lead to the death of the millions of people?
Exactly. Glad to see another poster who isn’t just following others like sheep.
As you said monumental figure in British history and the statue wasn’t in any way made to represent his racial views.
It’s page 22, some brilliant and brutally honest commentary and from all sides of the debate .... and you’re still stuck here??? Really???
The ‘education’ challenge on Churchill is enormous
For your education, British Government cabinet meetings were not part of Churchill’s ‘private life’ and the racist opinions and policies he expressed and enacted in those meetings killed millions of people.
Hope you’re clear on that now.
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Boris along with some other pro statue supporters and protectors have claimed that removing statues is bad because it ‘erases’ a nations history.
Britain actually went through this process of erasing its history; wilfully and strategically. It even had a project name.
This is what it looks like. Shameless whitewashing of the some of the most disgusting acts in the known history of humanity. Hands up who got taught that in GCSE or A-Levels?
Britain actually went through this process of erasing its history; wilfully and strategically. It even had a project name.
This is what it looks like. Shameless whitewashing of the some of the most disgusting acts in the known history of humanity. Hands up who got taught that in GCSE or A-Levels?
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This is really all I need to read in this thread. Great post.
That is literally the stupidest thing I've heard in a long long while.
I’m not clear on that sammsky, no . I assume you are referring to the Bengal famine...It’s page 22, some brilliant and brutally honest commentary and from all sides of the debate .... and you’re still stuck here??? Really???
The ‘education’ challenge on Churchill is enormous
For your education, British Government cabinet meetings were not part of Churchill’s ‘private life’ and the racist opinions and policies he expressed and enacted in those meetings killed millions of people.
Hope you’re clear on that now.
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/
This article lists the argument for and against this accusation.
Fact is that It is a highly debated topic and whilst I’ve pointed out his personal opinions on race are disgusting it is also documented that in fact he made many efforts to secure wheat and food supplies during a world war in which every area of the British empire was suffering.
This thread, much like the mobs on the street, are missing some much needed balance to the subject.
I hope your clear on that now
Desecrating Churchill statue for the Bengal famine while there are certain current UK policy (economic sanction of Iran) practically not allowing them to have their food running at the same time.
Malaysia one of the British commonwealth still has a pro bumiputera policy that specifically discriminate Indian/Chinese minorities in favor of the indigenous Malay.
I'm skeptical towards all this statue desecration, any more of this will become absurdity and taking the limelight away from the BLM topic.
EDIT: Yes I get it, it's a real world. Nations took policy that kills/stricten millions of other nations. But to pretend to turn a blind eye and choosing to desecrate a 50 years old statue is weird.
Malaysia one of the British commonwealth still has a pro bumiputera policy that specifically discriminate Indian/Chinese minorities in favor of the indigenous Malay.
I'm skeptical towards all this statue desecration, any more of this will become absurdity and taking the limelight away from the BLM topic.
EDIT: Yes I get it, it's a real world. Nations took policy that kills/stricten millions of other nations. But to pretend to turn a blind eye and choosing to desecrate a 50 years old statue is weird.