We won't. That formation isn't LVG favorite formation (433 is) and he is playing that only because the team isn't good enough (wothout Strootman) to play 4-3-3.
Will we play 5-3-2
- Thread starter Sparky Rhiwabon
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Van Gaal is tactically flexible - as he has shown with Holland in moving to this new system.
If he thinks 3-5-2 gets the best out of our players then he will play it. And it's entirely possible that he will think that due to our struggles to fit Rooney, Van Persie and Mata into the same side in an effective way.
If he thinks that, of course, but at-least in my opinion our team isn't suited for that system. We have too many attacking players, so a 5-3-2 (3-5-2) formation means that we'll have only 3 players on attack. I think that it'll be a 4-5-1 (4-3-3) with RVP on attack, Kagawa/Januzaj on one wing, a winger on the other wing and Rooney/Mata as a No.10.
When you have average defender you are forced to play with 3 CB
Van Gaal with Holland is forced to play in that way because he doesn't have good players, neither in defence and in midfield
Vlaar, Indi, De Guzman... Etc
At United could be different
Our specific problem is that we have too many central attackers, as opposed to too many attackers. Our issue is that our best players all like to play in the middle.
When we have played four up top - as we always do - you end up with one or two from Rooney, Mata or Kagawa out wide. Playing three attackers centrally allows us to play our best players in their best roles - we saw last night how a wide role doesn't suit Rooney, and we saw last year that it also didn't suit Mata.
On your line up - I don't think it's viable to only play one of Mata/Rooney - just my opinion but both should be on the pitch.
We'd need to sign about 3 centre-halves to play 3-5-2 on a regular basis anyway.
I could see us using it against Barcelona in a couple of years though, for the same reason it worked on Spain so well.
I could see us using it against Barcelona in a couple of years though, for the same reason it worked on Spain so well.
On individual qualities yes, but I am not sure that is the best thing for the team. Of course, Mata can be shifted on the left with Rooney as No.10.
Anyway my point is that on 4-3-3 (4-5-1) you have four attacking players. On 3-5-2 (5-3-2) you have three attacking players (3CB + 2 wing backs + 2 CM and then three attacking players). Currently, our best department is attack with RVP, Mata and Rooney being our best players while Hernandez, Welbeck, Kagawa, Januzaj being very good and then the possibility of a rejuvenation of Nani). It is hard to choose 4 players from them, and I think that it won't be the right approach if we choose only 3.
I agree that it could very well not be the best thing for the team to play both Mata and Rooney... In a 4-3-3. This is the precise reason other systems which do allow us to effectively use both are being suggested.
Yes I understood what you were saying, that a 5-3-2 has just three attackers. What I was saying is that it allows you to have three central attackers - that is the difference. Playing four attackers doesn't do much for me if it means sticking Mata on the flank - you might be getting the name 'Mata' on the team sheet, but it's a Mata not close to his best.
This is the same for Wayne - as we saw last night - it's also the same for someone like Welbeck, who went from having a fantastic 2011/12 in the middle, to a poor 2012/13 out on the flank.
If we're talking about our best departments then I agree that attack is ours - but it's because of our central players. Our wingers are one of the worst areas of the squad. I would much rather see three 100% forwards as opposed to four which includes a 75% version of Mata, Rooney or Welbeck playing an unsuited role.
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Ah, makes sense now. It might be an idea, especially considering that all of Kagawa, Januzaj and Welbeck would be suited for this game too. However we would need to sign two CB in order to make this formatio work (5CB for three positions).
If we want to put Mata, Rooney and Robin play all on center then personally I would prefer the diamond system with Rooney and Robin playing above Mata. Still on that formation we would need to sign a million CM considering that you need 3CM for it to work, and currently we have only a good CM (Carrick).
It will be interesting, surely. I guess that we'll play 4-3-3(4-5-1) but you never know.
It wouldve made more sense when we had Rio & Vidic. At present we would need to sign a couple of new centre backs.
Shouldn't this be in the Man United Forum.
That's funny to see all that because there is an obvious formation:
----------RVP
Nani-----Mata----Januzaj
Strootman-Schweini
That's the formation the most used by Van Gaal when possible. Ajax, Bayern and even Netherland when the midfield is composed of De Jong, Strootman and Sneijder
We will probably defend in 4-3-3 and attack in 2-3-2-3 or 2-3-1-1-3 which are the developed form of a 4-2-3-1.
----------RVP
Nani-----Mata----Januzaj
Strootman-Schweini
That's the formation the most used by Van Gaal when possible. Ajax, Bayern and even Netherland when the midfield is composed of De Jong, Strootman and Sneijder
We will probably defend in 4-3-3 and attack in 2-3-2-3 or 2-3-1-1-3 which are the developed form of a 4-2-3-1.
I've wanted us to play a 3-4-3 type of formation for months. One team I suggested had Rodriguez and Aurier as LWB and RWB. Before the WC even started.
That just would not happen. There is no DM in this formation for starters. Strootman and Schweini are to similar to play together with Mata. They can only play in mid trio with a DM otherwise the midfield center is to exposed, because none of them is suited to protect the back four.
will need a few more CB's if we do
Yeah Schweini and Strootman didn't play DM in their entire career.
What's the problem with two players who are defensively good and offensively ? You don't always need a DM, you can also play with two box to box who are defensively sound.
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It might be our alternative formation under van Gaal, but his preferred is definitely 4-3-3 (or a variation of 4-2-3-1).
They did not, they played as a CMs. Different role that. The problem is they will pretty much duplicate each other as they both play in box-to-box fashion, roaming forward and leaving back two exposed. They can play together if they would have a proper DM behind them(4-1-2-3), but with Mata as a AM this formation will be just to open and defensively weak. Of course you can order one of them to sit back, but would just kill the player, they both good in the exact CM box-to-box role, and not in a covering, sitting behind DM one.
Just look how Bastian played for Bayerm, esp last season and season before that. He always had the likes of Gustavo, Martinez to cover DM role, while Bastian run forward and played box-to-box role.
There is no point in this debate but when you play with two box to box who are competent defensively they can alternate, they are not idiots.
Yeah, heard that a lot of times, but that just does not work. Have you seen any top team that plays with two box-to-box player behind the AM with a 2 CBs? I have not. 3-5-2 allows you to use CM-AM-CM structure in the center, because you have 3 CBs one of them could act as a libero/DM. That is the system Juventus employs. Well, similar. Juve actually plays with Pirlo as false DM or deep lying playmaker.
As i've said, there is no need to invent the wheel here. I mean look how Strootman, Bastian were deployed by their current clubs, both of them were playing as a CM with a DM covering in defense. And they both were riveting. Exactly because they knew they had a solid cover and could really exploit the space in attack.
I think if rafeal jones smallen and evans continue to go down their injury prone road, we will need 3 or 4 defenders, fullbacks, 2 center backs. We want to give jones and smallen a proper run, but their injury records is a huge risk. But realistic for balance, we will need 1 CB and 2 fullbacks. I feel the need for a LB, is has great as a right back. Unless LVG and giggs are big on some of our younger players like will keane and wilson, a CB is eliminated, but we need a right and left back.
We do need to strengthen 3 of the 4 spots anyway. Between Rafael, Varela and Janko there is plenty of competition for RB. Smalling Jones and Evans all have had injury issues but even without that we would need another top CB at least if the 5 3 2 is going to be an option.
wont be signing sanchez. rooney in his place id say. wont be signing bastian either.
United, Germany( Gundogan-Schweinesteiger), Bayern (Thiago- Kroos or Schweini) when playing with Gotze or Muller in the hole), Arsenal (Song- Cesc)
Atléti (except Suarez there is no DM) And Ajax ( Seedorf-Davids) for me none of them DMs
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Really can't believe it. I have been calling for us to move to a 352 for the last few seasons. Have always felt it suits our players down to the ground. It always got shot down. Now van Gaal did it, everyone is in love with it and hope it's implemented.
United played with Carrick, a DM an unusual one, like Alonso, but still a DM, not a box-to-box player. Germany usually plays with Khedira, they also used Bender. Munich had Lahm as a DM although they are a bit special with all this Guardiola possession's obsession. Arsenal is exactly on the cases i was talking about. Song is a clear DM, he even can deputize as a CB, while Cesc is CM/AM. I don't remember this old Ajax with.
Yeah, that stuff happens
Tbh this thread is kind a useless as it has been answered a million times in the LVG post.
The answer is "no" unless he has no chance to play his normal systems due no signings. Again, this system is purely a last resort for the dutch team due injuries.
The answer is "no" unless he has no chance to play his normal systems due no signings. Again, this system is purely a last resort for the dutch team due injuries.
United Keane-Scholes, khedira is liability defensively he always bomb forward, Song can't defend properly is a defensive box to box.
And you didn't noticed but i didn't say that we would have to defend with 2 players in the midfield, i precised that it was a 4-3-3 in defense and a 2-3-2-3 in attack.
Your vision of tactic is too rigid.
So Keane is similar to Bastian or Strootman? How many goals he scored exactly? Cause these guys are scoring quite a lot for CMs being a true box-to-box they are. Same goes for Song or Khedira. It does not matter who good anyone is, it's a simple matter of exact player and we are talking about a systems, the main thing is that Song and Keane were DMs, they mostly stayed behind and protected back two, their attacking runs were seldom, they did not score much, because they were never in a position to do so. Strootman and Shweini are the exact opposite, they go forward much more often, they assist, score much more frequently because of that. They are only good when given license to roam forward and create. They both can defend, but they can't play in a midfield trio with a AM(in a 4-3-3 based formations), they never did. Bastian always had a someone like Gustavo and Martinez, Strootman had De Rossi.
Will be nice to have it as an option
I'm just gonna ask you something, are Hargreaves or Effenberg DMs ?
Keane scored 57 goals, schweinsteiger 42
Keane had 33 goals in 326 United's appearances. Bastian had 40 in 322 Munich's games.
Hargreaves could have been DM, he was very versatile and played all over the pitch, even as a RB or RM. But yeah, generally he is a DM. At least he could played as one behind Lampard, Gerrard (box-to-box players) in 4-3-3 back in the day.
Effenberg is a CM, box-to-box type, that why he had Jeremies, a clear DM, playing beside him in 1999.
I don't think so, LvG did simply a great job by picking the best formation and tactics with the player he had. A 5-3-2 would mean Januzaj to be left out what I can't imagine and don't want to see.
I hope not. 4-2-3-1 for me personally. With current team;
---------RvP
-Rooney Mata Januzaj
-----Carrick Jones
Evra Smalling Evans Rafael
--------De Gea
Potential muppet team based on gossip (sorry Wayne);
----------RvP
--Januzaj Mata Sanchez
Schweinsteiger Strootman
Shaw Vermaelen Evans Rafael
---------De Gea
---------RvP
-Rooney Mata Januzaj
-----Carrick Jones
Evra Smalling Evans Rafael
--------De Gea
Potential muppet team based on gossip (sorry Wayne);
----------RvP
--Januzaj Mata Sanchez
Schweinsteiger Strootman
Shaw Vermaelen Evans Rafael
---------De Gea
I've got a hunch we'll see a return to a 4-3-3 when they okay Australia, and maybe against Chile too. I wouldn't expect to see the formation he's using with the Dutch at United.
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I think we'll play 3-2-2-2-1
I'll jump into this
Bastian and Strootman would work as a pairing fine in my opinion. Both very hard working midfielders, also very intelligent midfielders, and would know when to go forward and when to drop back.
I can't believe you can consider Carrick a DM, but not the two above
Yes, they may wanna advance forward, but Carrick doesn't exactly sit back either
It depends what you consider defensive midfielders. Look at Juventus. When they play with Vidal and Pogba, you can see the defensive qualities in them, but they are also willing to get forward to join in attacks.
Plus, if as a team, we play quite high up the pitch, it squeezes the opponents in their own half, there wouldn't be much of a gap between Defence > Midifleld > Mata as it is
And to be fair, just because that would be our main line up, doesn't mean it would be our consistent one. Against the bigger clubs we probably would switch it up to include a more defensive minded player, but come on, if we did get Bastian and Strootman, they'd play most of the prem teams off the park
As for Keane and Scholes. You cannot say Keane was a defensive midfielder. He was very box to box, and you cannot compare how many goals he has scored as an indication of how forward he gets.
By your logic Bastian on average scores 5 goals a season and Keane scores 4....And lets not forget, Bastian takes quite a few free kicks (Not sure about penalties, but I bet he took a few of them to)
Bastian and Strootman would work as a pairing fine in my opinion. Both very hard working midfielders, also very intelligent midfielders, and would know when to go forward and when to drop back.
I can't believe you can consider Carrick a DM, but not the two above
Yes, they may wanna advance forward, but Carrick doesn't exactly sit back either
It depends what you consider defensive midfielders. Look at Juventus. When they play with Vidal and Pogba, you can see the defensive qualities in them, but they are also willing to get forward to join in attacks.
Plus, if as a team, we play quite high up the pitch, it squeezes the opponents in their own half, there wouldn't be much of a gap between Defence > Midifleld > Mata as it is
And to be fair, just because that would be our main line up, doesn't mean it would be our consistent one. Against the bigger clubs we probably would switch it up to include a more defensive minded player, but come on, if we did get Bastian and Strootman, they'd play most of the prem teams off the park
As for Keane and Scholes. You cannot say Keane was a defensive midfielder. He was very box to box, and you cannot compare how many goals he has scored as an indication of how forward he gets.
By your logic Bastian on average scores 5 goals a season and Keane scores 4....And lets not forget, Bastian takes quite a few free kicks (Not sure about penalties, but I bet he took a few of them to)
As for what we will play, it will be so difficult to determine as every match could be so much different.
I'd most like to see a 4231 / 433
I'd most like to see a 4231 / 433
Really? No reason he couldn't play the Sneijder or Robben roles in that system.