Will Fish

Feel sorry for the lad. Gets a big break to fly on tour and join the big lads and has a howler. Hope he finds his feet.
 
He was a bag of nerves the whole time he was on the pitch, probably not helped by having AWB and Telles on either side of him as well.

Poor guy, hope he dusts himself off and does not get too much abuse because of this. It is a meaningless friendly.
 
Looked like a Fish out of water today...


Seriously though, bit of misfortune with his sending off. Was instinctive in his reaction, and I know it's a professional foul but, ref could have been a bit more lenient considering it was pre-season. Looking at the tackles Ayew was getting away with makes it even more grating he got sent off.
 
Good thing ETH does not think like some of the posters above who believe that one mistake is equivalent to doom.

Will was brought in as a emergency replacement, had to come into a dynamic setup in the 2nd half and as a result he didnt have time to adjust. Unlike midfielders and attackers, defenders need to coordinate and read the game which is not easy to do when you are a substitute. Besides it is pre-season and it is his first game, so the match fitness is not there yet. Not all players hit match fitness instantly.
 
nav_10 said:
Looked like a Fish out of water today...


Seriously though, bit of misfortune with his sending off. Was instinctive in his reaction, and I know it's a professional foul but, ref could have been a bit more lenient considering it was pre-season. Looking at the tackles Ayew was getting away with makes it even more grating he got sent off.
Click to expand...

Yup with the stuff Ayew got away with this sending of was very harsh.
 
Really want him to make it, because he looks like a mix between Vidic and Cillian Murphy.
 
His inclusion was a bit weird honestly, I think both Mengi and Bernard would have been better options to take on loan.
 
Can someone be kind enough to provide video evidence of his red? I’ve missed what happened.
 
Ace of Spades said:
His inclusion was a bit weird honestly, I think both Mengi and Bernard would have been better options to take on loan.
Click to expand...

Mengi must be injured, and I think Bernard will be sold. They are both better than him so. Fish was poor in the U23 last season and couldn't get into a team in the National League. So no surprise here. I felt sorry for him.
 
In Rainbows said:
He hasn't looked good for a while now. Only when he first started playing youth matches on MUTV, did he look great. He's been disappointing at youth level for a while now.
Click to expand...
This ... He looked an exciting prospect but then just seemed to fall apart about 2 years ago, I don't know if he improved towards the end of last season as I wasn't really watching at the point. Hope it's just a growth spurt thing as he looked really promising early on.

Obviously the whole team changed but we did look noticeably weaker in defence from when he came on.
 
He'll probably end up not making at United and playing for a minnow.
 
I Can't work out if our academy stall the development of players or the player aren't that good in the first place?
 
There are few challenges that everyone faces.

1. Many people have an unrealistic expectation with an Academy. We think that the Academy should be developing generational talents each season so we compare every player to Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Greenwood and others. When in reality, the Academy HOPES for a generational talent every once in a while and then hopes to develop 1/2 players each year that can contribute to the first team. If you do that over 4/5 years then 50% of the squad is made up of youth players which has multiple benefits. United are exceptional at this although many of our own fans are critical. But when you look at other clubs it's the same or worse. Sometimes our success with so many world class players can distort things.

2. You can't have 11 fantastic players in every year. They don't exist. By definition it's an elite sport so over 80% won't make it. But you need those 80% of players so you have a team to play for you each week.

3. Every player develops at different times/levels in many different ways. History tells us that coaches make incredibly few mistakes so we need to give them some credit that they really do know more than us. Garner is a good example. Personally I would have preferred him to VdB, or at least been given a chance. But history tells us he will end up a good PL player but probably a very good Championship player.

4. Loans are a bloody minefield and most don't really work. So getting the right player at the right club is really hard.

5. Most players in our first team are really good players. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. You might prefer other players or not like personalities but that's a personal view. Once again history proves that the likes of Lingard, Pogba, Cleverley, Welbeck, McTominay, Evans, O'Shea, Fletcher, Rashford and many others, whilst not necessarily fan favourites (no idea why - but that's me)...have significantly contributed to us winning league and cup honours. And that's the point in having a functioning Academy.

6. Theoretically it's easier to be successful with home grown products at Charlton, Crewe or wherever. You just need to find the 60th best winger, fullback and keeper. At United we need to find and develop the 1st-2nd best in the country. That's a high benchmark and every decade we achieve it!

7. We have more ex-players playing professional football around the world than any other club. We have more players reach the first team than any other. We give more minutes than any other club (as identified by CIES over the last three years). So while many think our Academy is poor...it's still the best.

8. I think everyone wants United to be the best Academy in the world. We can still learn new things...improve processes...upgrade coaches and approaches and demand the best leadership. We are not perfect but then no one is. It's a constant cycle of growth.
 
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Mr. MUJAC said:
There are few challenges that everyone faces.

1. Many people have an unrealistic expectation with an Academy. We think that the Academy should be developing generational talents each season so we compare every player to Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Greenwood and others. When in reality, the Academy HOPES for a generational talent every once in a while and then hopes to develop 1/2 players each year that can contribute to the first team. If you do that over 4/5 years then 50% of the squad is made up of youth players which has multiple benefits. United are exceptional at this although many of our own fans are critical. But when you look at other clubs it's the same or worse. Sometimes our success with so many world class players can distort things.

2. You can't have 11 fantastic players in every year. They don't exist. By definition it's an elite sport so over 80% won't make it. But you need those 80% of players so you have a team to play for you each week.

3. Every player develops at different times/levels in many different ways. History tells us that coaches make incredibly few mistakes so we need to give them some credit that they really do know more than us. Garner is a good example. Personally I would have preferred him to VdB, or at least been given a chance. But history tells us he will end up a good PL player but probably a very good Championship player.

4. Loans are a bloody minefield and most don't really work. So getting the right player at the right club is really hard.

5. Most players in our first team are really good players. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. You might prefer other players or not like personalities but that's a personal view. Once again history proves that the likes of Lingard, Pogba, Cleverley, Welbeck, McTominay, Evans, O'Shea, Fletcher, Rashford and many others, whilst not necessarily fan favourites (no idea why - but that's me)...have significantly contributed to us winning league and cup honours. And that's the point in having a functioning Academy.

6. Theoretically it's easier to be successful with home grown products at Charlton, Crewe or wherever. You just need to find the 60th best winger, fullback and keeper. At United we need to find and develop the 1st-2nd best in the country. That's a high benchmark and every decade we achieve it!

7. We have more ex-players playing professional football around the world than any other club. We have more players reach the first team than any other. We give more minutes than any other club (as identified by CIES over the last three years). So while many think our Academy is poor...it's still the best.

8. I think everyone wants United to be the best Academy in the world. We can still learn new things...improve processes...upgrade coaches and approaches and demand the best leadership. We are not perfect but then no one is. It's a constant cycle of growth.
Click to expand...

Words of wisdom, this should be pinned at the top of every thread!
 
I think the thing about defenders are some of them are being found out as they move up the levels as not actually that good at defending. Physical advantages can mask that at lower level.

Also many of our youth defenders tend to be quite injury-prone. Not sure if it's just us though.
 
khoazany said:
I think the thing about defenders are some of them are being found out as they move up the levels as not actually that good at defending. Physical advantages can mask that at lower level.

Also many of our youth defenders tend to be quite injury-prone. Not sure if it's just us though.
Click to expand...

Totally true, how many academy defenders have we seen look good over the years and then drop away in 21's and 23's. Kids like Emeran were expensive and I never felt he was anything better than we already had. Willy K the French defender looked amazing but is injured all the time. Mateo the same.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
There are few challenges that everyone faces.

1. Many people have an unrealistic expectation with an Academy. We think that the Academy should be developing generational talents each season so we compare every player to Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Greenwood and others. When in reality, the Academy HOPES for a generational talent every once in a while and then hopes to develop 1/2 players each year that can contribute to the first team. If you do that over 4/5 years then 50% of the squad is made up of youth players which has multiple benefits. United are exceptional at this although many of our own fans are critical. But when you look at other clubs it's the same or worse. Sometimes our success with so many world class players can distort things.

2. You can't have 11 fantastic players in every year. They don't exist. By definition it's an elite sport so over 80% won't make it. But you need those 80% of players so you have a team to play for you each week.

3. Every player develops at different times/levels in many different ways. History tells us that coaches make incredibly few mistakes so we need to give them some credit that they really do know more than us. Garner is a good example. Personally I would have preferred him to VdB, or at least been given a chance. But history tells us he will end up a good PL player but probably a very good Championship player.

4. Loans are a bloody minefield and most don't really work. So getting the right player at the right club is really hard.

5. Most players in our first team are really good players. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. You might prefer other players or not like personalities but that's a personal view. Once again history proves that the likes of Lingard, Pogba, Cleverley, Welbeck, McTominay, Evans, O'Shea, Fletcher, Rashford and many others, whilst not necessarily fan favourites (no idea why - but that's me)...have significantly contributed to us winning league and cup honours. And that's the point in having a functioning Academy.

6. Theoretically it's easier to be successful with home grown products at Charlton, Crewe or wherever. You just need to find the 60th best winger, fullback and keeper. At United we need to find and develop the 1st-2nd best in the country. That's a high benchmark and every decade we achieve it!

7. We have more ex-players playing professional football around the world than any other club. We have more players reach the first team than any other. We give more minutes than any other club (as identified by CIES over the last three years). So while many think our Academy is poor...it's still the best.

8. I think everyone wants United to be the best Academy in the world. We can still learn new things...improve processes...upgrade coaches and approaches and demand the best leadership. We are not perfect but then no one is. It's a constant cycle of growth.
Click to expand...

Read this a few times now.

Really measured, informed and sensible post.
 
Agree, most of the kids we have are not going to be anywhere near our first squad. I actually feel because they play for us we rate them higher than what they are. Angel Gomes is a perfect example. Even the England junior reps we never have many in it. I know Beaucoup mentioned filler ins and looking at the current 18's and 21's, even the past few years we are just topping up to make numbers.
Truthfully, looking at the 18's squad there is very little that will go further with us. Maybe Ogunneye, Mainoo and Gore. Mainoo is the standout. The 23's: Maybe Vitek. Many good players but not United Pl level.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
4. Loans are a bloody minefield and most don't really work. So getting the right player at the right club is really hard.
Click to expand...
It's true, and I can't really figure out why. There are the obvious talking points: a silky technical player loaned to an unsuitably direct team, a manager getting sacked and his replacement not fancying the loanee, the loan club needed instant results and not caring about the player's development. Still, they work out so rarely that I think there's more to it.

Thoughts?
 
Fabio Rochemback said:
It's true, and I can't really figure out why. There are the obvious talking points: a silky technical player loaned to an unsuitably direct team, a manager getting sacked and his replacement not fancying the loanee, the loan club needed instant results and not caring about the player's development. Still, they work out so rarely that I think there's more to it.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

No...you cover the main points.

1. Style of play
2. Resentment from other players
3. Changing managers
4. Injury (normally the player comes back to United)
5. Where the team is in the league...if they are struggling a young United player won't get a kick.
6. Tactics
7. Abuse from terraces
8. Different culture
9. Clear links between the development needs of the player and the approach of the other club
10. Living alone in a hotel
11. Age differences
12. Navigating internal politics

That's why all this talk about sending 17-18 year-old youth players out on loan is nonsense.

It is really hard to get most of these things right.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
No...you cover the main points.

1. Style of play
2. Resentment from other players
3. Changing managers
4. Injury (normally the player comes back to United)
5. Where the team is in the league...if they are struggling a young United player won't get a kick.
6. Tactics
7. Abuse from terraces
8. Different culture
9. Clear links between the development needs of the player and the approach of the other club
10. Living alone in a hotel
11. Age differences
12. Navigating internal politics

That's why all this talk about sending 17-18 year-old youth players out on loan is nonsense.

It is really hard to get most of these things right.
Click to expand...
Looks like we've made the same mistake with Amad Diallo. very annoying.
 
His loan at Hibernian isn't going well it seems and he seems to be on the bench most games. Even his loan at Stockport was bad and things are not looking good for him right now.
 
Adnan said:
His loan at Hibernian isn't going well it seems and he seems to be on the bench most games. Even his loan at Stockport was bad and things are not looking good for him right now.
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Strange what has happened there. He looked really promising a couple of years ago. Mengi seems to have gone the same way.
 
Adnan said:
His loan at Hibernian isn't going well it seems and he seems to be on the bench most games. Even his loan at Stockport was bad and things are not looking good for him right now.
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He signed a new contract until summer 2025 + 1 year option (mentioned on previous page), so the club can keep loaning him out for at least another 2 seasons.

Not playing for Stockport in the National League then joining Hibs is a strange move.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
No...you cover the main points.

1. Style of play
2. Resentment from other players
3. Changing managers
4. Injury (normally the player comes back to United)
5. Where the team is in the league...if they are struggling a young United player won't get a kick.
6. Tactics
7. Abuse from terraces
8. Different culture
9. Clear links between the development needs of the player and the approach of the other club
10. Living alone in a hotel
11. Age differences
12. Navigating internal politics

That's why all this talk about sending 17-18 year-old youth players out on loan is nonsense.

It is really hard to get most of these things right.
Click to expand...

I mostly agree. And still, more lately, there seem to be a fairly high percentage of seemingly successful loans - Laird, Mejbri, Diallo (ed, Ferndez too, I should mention) all seem to work quite well this season, getting game time, being used fittingly, clubs also being satisfied. Laird and Diallo are older, but is it just chance, or is there a tendency that the club is improving in taking care of your aforementioned challenges, lowering the risk of failure?
 
Remember the geese said:
Strange what has happened there. He looked really promising a couple of years ago. Mengi seems to have gone the same way.
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I never really thought he was anything special mate. I know there was people who rated him and the first page of this thread is testament to that. But he was a disaster anytime he was exposed in space from what I saw.
 
Would we consider recalling him considering our injury crisis at cb?
He's been starting regularly for Hibs since about December
 
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