Why the reluctance to sign a defensive midfielder?

United insist on pretending McTominay and Fred are good enough.

Which is strange as they have both been mainstays of the worst United team in forever.

To be fair though I even see people on CAF saying if we get FDJ to replace Pogba then that'll be enough Midfield reinforcement.

I think people must just want us to fail in truth. Or they are just really trying to justify how poorly we are run by pretending we can win stuff with such awful players.

Freds better than McT but still should be a bench player not a guaranteed starter
His time at the club has been abysmal.
 
laughtersassassin said:
United insist on pretending McTominay and Fred are good enough.

Which is strange as they have both been mainstays of the worst United team in forever.

To be fair though I even see people on CAF saying if we get FDJ to replace Pogba then that'll be enough Midfield reinforcement.

I think people must just want us to fail in truth. Or they are just really trying to justify how poorly we are run by pretending we can win stuff with such awful players.

Freds better than McT but still should be a bench player not a guaranteed starter
His time at the club has been abysmal.
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If we do sign De Jong we will still need to sign a specialist DM.
 
Bestietom said:
If we do sign De Jong we will still need to sign a specialist DM.
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Exactly. But I've already seen people tell me that FDJ is so good compared to Pogba it won't matter. Or that Donny and Fred can do a job :lol:

I swear people don't watch City or Liverpool play because those guys ain't doing a job in helping us catch them
 
OpenIntrovert said:
Stats cannot be interpreted well unless we know the actual context of how he is being used and the type of tactics that Barcelona deploy. In a club like Barcelona where they tend to keep possession most of the time, FDJ playing in a more advanced role (CM) and Busquets sitting at the DM portion, it is expected that FDJ's tackles happen higher up the pitch. He is also functioning more as a playmaker in charge of holding possession and forwarding it as compared to how he was functioning at Ajax.

Another point that the stats does not show is that FDJ's positioning off-the-ball is very good. With just good positioning, he can force opponents into channels covered by his defending team mates or mistakes. Unfortunately successful positioning is a indirect impact on the opponent, which cannot be shown via stats.
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I understand that he was playing a more offensive role for Barcelona, but I have a real hard time imagining that he's going to be able to do the defensive job that we're going to need him to do. Playing higher up the pitch does not stop a midfielder from making tackles or intercepting the ball. Especially if that player has a mindset of a #6. I'd expect a player with good positioning to be intercepting a bit more. I hope I'm wrong and things work out well. I just don't see it with the other players that we have.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Exactly. But I've already seen people tell me that FDJ is so good compared to Pogba it won't matter. Or that Donny and Fred can do a job :lol:

I swear people don't watch City or Liverpool play because those guys ain't doing a job in helping us catch them
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From what I have seen of De Jong we will certainly need a specialist DM alongside him. He doesn't win tackles and waits to pick up the loose balls. We need a DM in front of back 4 to break up play and help our defence. Sangare would be ideal with him.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Exactly. But I've already seen people tell me that FDJ is so good compared to Pogba it won't matter. Or that Donny and Fred can do a job :lol:

I swear people don't watch City or Liverpool play because those guys ain't doing a job in helping us catch them
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Why do you think that ETH is going to play Fred or McTominay in defensive midfield? Most of us need to understand that Fred and McTominay were played out of position, in DM, simply because there were no other midfield options who could provide stamina, work-rate and defensive contributions (Matic could only play some games).

ETH might have a different type of formation where the players are played in their actual positions with De Jong flanked by Garner and McTominay in a 3 man central midfield, or De Jong as a DM with 2 of McTominay, Garner, Levitt forming a 2- man central midfield on top of him. You will be surprised how players play better when they are in their actual positions.
 
OpenIntrovert said:
Why do you think that ETH is going to play Fred or McTominay in defensive midfield? Most of us need to understand that Fred and McTominay were played out of position, in DM, simply because there were no other midfield options who could provide stamina, work-rate and defensive contributions (Matic could only play some games).

ETH might have a different type of formation where the players are played in their actual positions with De Jong flanked by Garner and McTominay in a 3 man central midfield, or De Jong as a DM with 2 of McTominay, Garner, Levitt forming a 2- man central midfield on top of him. You will be surprised how players play better when they are in their actual positions.
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Their positions are somewhat irrelevant when their lack of quality is unquestionable.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Their positions are somewhat irrelevant when their lack of quality is unquestionable.
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Who was the DM at Juve when Pirlo played there? He wasn't exactly a bruiser now was he

All they do is stand in front of their centre backs. I imagine De Jong could do it if Pirlo can
 
Think he may be waiting to see what Garner is like there. Fixtures for season out tomorrow morning.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Who was the DM at Juve when Pirlo played there? He wasn't exactly a bruiser now was he

All they do is stand in front of their centre backs. I imagine De Jong could do it if Pirlo can
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They had an insanely solid back 3 which helped though.

Maybe we will look to play a 3-5-2 also.
 
Well Mourinho did sign Matic. Then Ole came in and went for the expensive big 'United DNA' transfer per year. Which meant that we had to decide whether we buy Maguire (year 1), Sancho (year 2 and 3) or Rice.
 
laughtersassassin said:
United insist on pretending McTominay and Fred are good enough.

Which is strange as they have both been mainstays of the worst United team in forever.

To be fair though I even see people on CAF saying if we get FDJ to replace Pogba then that'll be enough Midfield reinforcement.

I think people must just want us to fail in truth. Or they are just really trying to justify how poorly we are run by pretending we can win stuff with such awful players.

Freds better than McT but still should be a bench player not a guaranteed starter
His time at the club has been abysmal.
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I think midfield is underrated in this forum. I would take an average forward line and defense as long as the midfield is world class. Midfield features heavily in both phases of play. A good midfield elevates both the attack and the defense in my opinion. Having midfielders who are good on the ball should always be higher priority than an RB that's decent on the ball.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Who was the DM at Juve when Pirlo played there? He wasn't exactly a bruiser now was he

All they do is stand in front of their centre backs. I imagine De Jong could do it if Pirlo can
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Where am I saying you need a DM to succeed? I'm saying our other Midfielders are shite and putting FDJ in won't change that.

Pirlo wasn't a one man Midfield. He played beside great players. In fact Evey Midfielder in that Juvenetus Midfield was better than every Midfielder we have now.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Exactly. But I've already seen people tell me that FDJ is so good compared to Pogba it won't matter. Or that Donny and Fred can do a job :lol:

I swear people don't watch City or Liverpool play because those guys ain't doing a job in helping us catch them
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ETH already mentioned that De Jong needs a defensive player alongside of him. It's thereby almost a guarantee that one would be signed under those circumstances.
 
We 100% need a quality DM even if we sign FdJ. No top team doesn't have a world class player who sits in front of the defence and does the dirty work of protecting them.

Liverpool - Fabinho
City - Fernandinho
Chelsea - Kante
Bayern - Kimmich
PSG - Verrati
RM - Casemiro
Barca - Busquets

All of them have quality just in front of their defence and it makes their defence much better and their transitions much better and prevents them getting overrun.

If we get FdJ and a quality DM we will be about 2/3rds of the way there with the vital changes to the squad. I would prioritise RB and then CF afterwards. I would be fairly confident of getting top 4 if we only got FdJ, a quality DM and a new RB this summer.
 
Bissouma going to Spurs on the cheap. We'd better have someone lined up.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Who was the DM at Juve when Pirlo played there? He wasn't exactly a bruiser now was he

All they do is stand in front of their centre backs. I imagine De Jong could do it if Pirlo can
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Pirlo had 2 hard working b2b midfielders who did a lot of covering. Pirlo did not get forward as much as De Jong does.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Their positions are somewhat irrelevant when their lack of quality is unquestionable.
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This.

Why people are sound blind to their level is beyond me. If either were playing for other teams and we were linked with them, everyone would be shouting about how shit they are and not being good enough for United.

Bench players at best.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Where am I saying you need a DM to succeed? I'm saying our other Midfielders are shite and putting FDJ in won't change that.

Pirlo wasn't a one man Midfield. He played beside great players. In fact Evey Midfielder in that Juvenetus Midfield was better than every Midfielder we have now.
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Pogba?
 
I don't even want Bruno in our midfield. Compare him with De Bruyne and its apple and oranges.

I want a solid 4-3-3 midfield three of De Jong New DM New CM LW Sancho CF Ronaldo/Bruno RW New Signing..

Subs: Rashford, Elanga, Fred, Garner, VDB
 
Our board doesn't care about what our team needs. They are more concerned with players who will sell shirts and unfortunately DM's don't do that. This is why we are spending so much time trying to sign De Jong instead of concentrating on positions that are actually needed...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Our board doesn't care about what our team needs. They are more concerned with players who will sell shirts and unfortunately DM's don't do that. This is why we are spending so much time trying to sign De Jong instead of concentrating on positions that are actually needed...
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Huh? You don't think Erik ten Hag has something to do with us wanting De Jong? It's just a big coincidence maybe.
 
Adam-Utd said:
They had an insanely solid back 3 which helped though.

Maybe we will look to play a 3-5-2 also.
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He played as the deep ,6 in Milan too. Infront of a flat back 4 with 2 ball winning runners ahead of him in midfield. For Italy he played it alongside a roaming ball winner in Gatusso, in a double pivot. There is literally no reason why a De jong can't replicate that for Ten hag. Besides de jobg is EXACTLY what we have missed since Carrick retired. Carrick never needed a number 6 alongside him so I marvel that many imagine a De jong would.
 
mctrials23 said:
We 100% need a quality DM even if we sign FdJ. No top team doesn't have a world class player who sits in front of the defence and does the dirty work of protecting them.

Liverpool - Fabinho
City - Fernandinho
Chelsea - Kante
Bayern - Kimmich
PSG - Verrati
RM - Casemiro
Barca - Busquets

All of them have quality just in front of their defence and it makes their defence much better and their transitions much better and prevents them getting overrun.

If we get FdJ and a quality DM we will be about 2/3rds of the way there with the vital changes to the squad. I would prioritise RB and then CF afterwards. I would be fairly confident of getting top 4 if we only got FdJ, a quality DM and a new RB this summer.
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That’s a list of midfielders with wildly differing roles and defensive abilities. I’m not sure it’s making the argument you think it is.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Exactly. But I've already seen people tell me that FDJ is so good compared to Pogba it won't matter. Or that Donny and Fred can do a job :lol:

I swear people don't watch City or Liverpool play because those guys ain't doing a job in helping us catch them
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The conclusion I came to a while back is that a lot of posters on this forum don't actually watch us play.
We are absolutely dreadful.
We need to sell a bunch of players, which we won't, because we are content to be crap.
We also need to buy a CB to play with Varane. Maguire and Lindeloff could be backups (though Maguire will start almost every game and will be captain, next season).
We need new LB and RB.
Need new CDM and CM.
Need new LW.
Sancho will get another season as our RW.
And a young striker to work under Ronaldo.
Most of these won't happen and we will struggle next season.
The board are now in the process of setting ETH up, to fail, just like they did the previous managers.
4th place is the aim and nothing more.
Nothing has changed. We merely have a new cast of actors, playing the same roles and some gullible fans have fallen for this.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He played as the deep ,6 in Milan too. Infront of a flat back 4 with 2 ball winning runners ahead of him in midfield. For Italy he played it alongside a roaming ball winner in Gatusso, in a double pivot. There is literally no reason why a De jong can't replicate that for Ten hag. Besides de jobg is EXACTLY what we have missed since Carrick retired. Carrick never needed a number 6 alongside him so I marvel that many imagine a De jong would.
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Everyone seems to agree that De Jong hasn't set the world alight at Barcelona because he can't play with Busquets or has been used out of position because of him too, which makes the insistence that De Jong requires pairing with a no.6 very odd.

SadlerMUFC said:
Our board doesn't care about what our team needs. They are more concerned with players who will sell shirts and unfortunately DM's don't do that. This is why we are spending so much time trying to sign De Jong instead of concentrating on positions that are actually needed...
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De Jong fills two big needs in our squad. He is a holding midfielder, which we no longer have at all with the departure of the ageing, bit-part Matic, and he is a deep playmaker/ dictator/ controller, which we also don't have at all with the closest player we had to fitting that description also having just left the club in Pogba.
 
Pexbo said:
That’s a list of midfielders with wildly differing roles and defensive abilities. I’m not sure it’s making the argument you think it is.
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They are all high quality DMs. Every top team in Europe has one...

The nuances of their role in their given team isn't that relevant. They all have one. We haven't had a quality DM for a very long time.

Its an important position regardless of whether they are more defensive minded, like to tackle, play more positionally to cut out passing lines etc etc. We need someone to fill the DM position. Who that is should be decided by the manager/scouting team based on the sort of football we want to play and the sort of player that would fit into that system. My point was that every top team in Europe has a quality DM. Thats it. We need one.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He played as the deep ,6 in Milan too. Infront of a flat back 4 with 2 ball winning runners ahead of him in midfield. For Italy he played it alongside a roaming ball winner in Gatusso, in a double pivot. There is literally no reason why a De jong can't replicate that for Ten hag. Besides de jobg is EXACTLY what we have missed since Carrick retired. Carrick never needed a number 6 alongside him so I marvel that many imagine a De jong would.
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Yeah, i'm sure De jong is more then capable of being disciplined if he has too.
 
Reflects the lack of strategy at the club. Not just the fact there's a gaping hole in the squad there, but the inability to commit to a certain profile of DM as there's no clarity on a style of play.

Olecurls99 said:
Who was the DM at Juve when Pirlo played there? He wasn't exactly a bruiser now was he

All they do is stand in front of their centre backs. I imagine De Jong could do it if Pirlo can
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Marchisio and Vidal (and later Pogba) none of whom were DMs but were two-way players who collectively provided a lot of hustle and all-round quality.
 
MrEarl said:
Priority has not been rebuilding the team but making marquee signings. Areas of weakness going into this signing season were central midfield and central defense. Right wing has been a weakness in the past several years but Greenwood proved last season that he's capable of 17 to 20 goals playing in that position. Man Utd passed up signing a central midfielder and instead signed a right winger. An outstanding player. A marquee signing. The latest signing is Ronaldo. Man Utd have a number of excellent players for the position he will play, central attacker. But he matches the club's top criteria for a marquee signing. Meanwhile the hole in central midfield continues. In fact the team lacks an adequate backup in central midfield.

In two years time Man Utd Will have an aging Rolando and their top opponents will have Kane & Haaland. I feel badly for Ole. He had a plan to rebuild the team but it's pretty clear the owners are running the show. Without an adequate central midfield the team is hardly likely to meet today's giddy expectations and Ole is a likely casualty by January.

I keep reading the same ridiculous statement that with Rolando Man Utd have one of the best central defenders, one of the best strikers and one of the best central midfielders in the Premier League. But who might that midfielder be? Pogba can't play in midfield with the current cast. He has to play in some kind of modified left wing position. The team that is likely to start with Rolando will have their two best young talents riding the bench, Rashford & Greenwood. What a way to build your future.
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Your post aged like a fine wine.
 
Abraxas said:
Huh? You don't think Erik ten Hag has something to do with us wanting De Jong? It's just a big coincidence maybe.
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I get the ETH wants him. It just bugs me that going into this window most fans were saying "we have to stop chasing these big names and just go for the right players who can make a name for themself at United". But then everyone forgets that the second a new shiny toy is dangled in front of them. So here we are chasing a guy who clearly wants to stay at Barca and has no interest playing for United. but we will probably end up with him in the end and then wonder where it all went wrong. Meanwhile Tottenham is signing players like Bissouma for 25m. But he's not a big enough name so we didnt bother...
 
sherrinford said:
Everyone seems to agree that De Jong hasn't set the world alight at Barcelona because he can't play with Busquets or has been used out of position because of him too, which makes the insistence that De Jong requires pairing with a no.6 very odd.



De Jong fills two big needs in our squad. He is a holding midfielder, which we no longer have at all with the departure of the ageing, bit-part Matic, and he is a deep playmaker/ dictator/ controller, which we also don't have at all with the closest player we had to fitting that description also having just left the club in Pogba.
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I'm sorry, but he is not a holding midfielder. He is a #8, not a #6. He can play along side someone in a two but then we are back to the same old crap as before with Bruno in the #10. We need to play a 4-3-3 with a proper DM if we want to ever be challenging at the top again. The 4-2-3-1 is outdated and doesn't suit the modern game. Might as well play a 4-4-2
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I get the ETH wants him. It just bugs me that going into this window most fans were saying "we have to stop chasing these big names and just go for the right players who can make a name for themself at United". But then everyone forgets that the second a new shiny toy is dangled in front of them. So here we are chasing a guy who clearly wants to stay at Barca and has no interest playing for United. but we will probably end up with him in the end and then wonder where it all went wrong. Meanwhile Tottenham is signing players like Bissouma for 25m. But he's not a big enough name so we didnt bother...
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What does it matter what the fans remember or forget? It means nothing to the strategy.

The idea of signing FDJ is clearly nothing to do with marketing or big names. There is no evidence we were even interested until this manager came on board.

Think you've just got this idea in your head about big names and you're running with it no matter what the logic for the transfer is. Let's see what the overall business pans out like. It's unlikely we're going to do another massive deal.
 
Abraxas said:
What does it matter what the fans remember or forget? It means nothing to the strategy.

The idea of signing FDJ is clearly nothing to do with marketing or big names. There is no evidence we were even interested until this manager came on board.

Think you've just got this idea in your head about big names and you're running with it no matter what the logic for the transfer is. Let's see what the overall business pans out like. It's unlikely we're going to do another massive deal.
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Because the Glazers like to make signings based on social media hits and shirt sales and if the fans act excited about these types of signings then they will keep making them...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Because the Glazers like to make signings based on social media hits and shirt sales and if the fans act excited about these types of signings then they will keep making them...
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And De Jong is going to flog huge numbers of shirts in Hong Kong? Are we aiming to capture the gigantic Dutch market? Also if he's such a marketable signing why are Barcelona shipping him out to balance the books?

I think you're overthinking it. He's an expensive player because he's a good player, a key international player and he's at Barcelona. If you don't like such signings for whatever reason then fair enough but making out like it's because of Twitter hits and shirts sales is nonsense. It's because of the manager plain and simple.
 
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