Why the negativity against Ed and the Glazers? Sorry I don't follow

I agree that Woody is nowhere as a good CEO (let's call him CEO despite not being one) or powerful as Perez.

Perez has missed on many players he wanted in the last few years. Since Bale he has signed only James and Courtuis from players he wanted. No De Gea, Hazard, Pogba etc.

Nearly got De Gea though.

I think he’s been lax because they won the champions league 4 out of 5 times. If they weren’t winning it then they definitely would be spending big like he was doing in the early 00s every season.

Even when he arrived during his second spell, Madrid didn’t make it past the last 16 for 5 years and he spent like £300m in 2009 which obviously was crazy money back then.
 
Perez can spot talent and has an eye for good players - Woodward not so much.

Darmian, Blind, Rojo etc and extending Fellani's contract makes me think player recruitment is not is forte.
Is it Perez solely making the decisions though? He might be happy to take credit for them, but it's possible he's just doing a better job of actually listening to his football people. We've restructured our scouting this last few years, I'd like to know how much impact that has on Ed overruling the manager on signings. If there's some new internal conflict going on.
 
We finished 2nd.

Implosion. Blame everyone. Sack mourinho sack ed. Glazer out. No vision. No soul.

Seriously. Just because we dont win the league doesnt mean ed doesnt have a vision and a plan. Part of the plan is to give jose more time to create stability.

I probably shouldn't laugh at rawk. 5 seasons without a league title we are already becoming more rawkish than ever.
 
Doesn't this work both ways though? Maybe Fergie didn't spent money on 2008, 2009 and 2010 because he didn't need so. We spent money in all other seasons as long as I can remember.

Madrid had many problems last season and just lost Ronaldo without replacing him. Why they are still counted as a club who spends a lot compared to us? If this was 2009 sure, but one decade later?
If Madrid were in our situation, without a major trophy for 5 years and counting, and just had a transfer window like ours, Perez would be out on his arse. Madrid fans just wouldn't stand for it.
 
The structure is that the manager tells Ed what players he wants, and Ed tries to get them for him if he can.
Other people here who are miserable with ED, say that he should do everything Mourinho tells him to do. You obviously think that's unwise.

I have seen managers come and go these past years, and they will continue to do so. Ferguson was an anomaly. The club has the right to question a managers spending, under the condition that the people raising these question have the football knowledge required to make these assessments.

Ed telling Jose who is worth what is laughable.

Pep went and signed Claudio Bravo, and when he turned out to be crap, they spent a ton on Ederson. That's how much confidence the City owners have in their structure and their manager. On the other hand, our board was puzzled when Jose spent on Bailly and Lindelof, and then asked for a third CB this summer.

A lot of the squad Pep inherited actually fits his footballing philosophy, and this is due to years of proper spending under a director of football. The way forward can be seen in any of the top clubs in Europe.
 
A transfer for an overinflated price for an average footballer? Maguire for anything above 30-40M? Leicester would laugh their way to the bank and it would be a shitty footballing decision.

That wasn’t my question...

You said Ed was making a commercial decision. But a transfer is first and foremost a football decision. Which correct me if I’m wrong, is not his expertise?
 
Don't you think that there is a lot of luck involved when everything just falls into place at a club?
Leicester crawled out of the arse end of nowhere to become premier league champions, and then were almost flushed back where they came from.
I think luck is somewhat involved, but planning and execution certainly is more important seeing as you can stay at the top for years.
How often will a top team win the league who has invested hard with a plan, as opposed to "nobodies" who've spent feck all?
A unlikely event is a unlikely event.
 
That wasn’t my question...

You said Ed was making a commercial decision. But a transfer is first and foremost a football decision. Which correct me if I’m wrong, is not his expertise?

He has access to football experts though, for all we know the club's view is based on scouting reports.
 
Because apparently they know better than the manager what the team needs. Also I don't believe Jose wanted players like Pogba and Sanchez, they just don't fit his profile of players. I guess it was something like:
Jose: I want Perisic I think he would fit perfectly
Ed: Here, we got Sanchez, not deal with it.

And these briefed articles about not having a problem spending £100M on a big name but having a problem spending on players the team actually need just sums Ed up.
 
Because apparently they know better than the manager what the team needs. Also I don't believe Jose wanted players like Pogba and Sanchez, they just don't fit his profile of players. I guess it was something like:
Jose: I want Perisic I think he would fit perfectly
Ed: Here, we got Sanchez, not deal with it.

And these briefed articles about not having a problem spending £100M on a big name but having a problem spending on players the team actually need just sums Ed up.

This just looks all made up to me.
 
The club has been declining for years. It’s only going to get worse the more unsuccessful we are on the pitch.

If the club doesn’t start becoming successful again ASAP, these record sponsorships won’t be there much longer. I think this is the only way the glazers will feck off. If the revenue of the club starts dropping maybe they will bail before it gets to the point where they will lose money.

The danger is the next owners could be potential worse than the glazers. It’s a fecking nightmare.

It would be a dream if the fans owned the club. Something similar to real and Barca. Would never happen though.
 
I think luck is somewhat involved, but planning and execution certainly is more important seeing as you can stay at the top for years.
How often will a top team win the league who has invested hard with a plan, as opposed to "nobodies" who've spent feck all?
A unlikely event is a unlikely event.

What is a plan?

Everything seems to be in place at United, but it's just not clicking.
 
Because apparently they know better than the manager what the team needs. Also I don't believe Jose wanted players like Pogba and Sanchez, they just don't fit his profile of players. I guess it was something like:
Jose: I want Perisic I think he would fit perfectly
Ed: Here, we got Sanchez, not deal with it.

And these briefed articles about not having a problem spending £100M on a big name but having a problem spending on players the team actually need just sums Ed up.

Jose wanted Pogba even when he was at Chelsea and Sanchez is typical Jose player, high risk and high work rate player.
 
Because apparently they know better than the manager what the team needs. Also I don't believe Jose wanted players like Pogba and Sanchez, they just don't fit his profile of players. I guess it was something like:
Jose: I want Perisic I think he would fit perfectly
Ed: Here, we got Sanchez, not deal with it.

And these briefed articles about not having a problem spending £100M on a big name but having a problem spending on players the team actually need just sums Ed up.

I don't get this, not so long ago most posters defending Mourinho were using his transfer dealings as proof, now none of the players are his. And when I think about Dier and Morata, I wonder if at some point someone is going to claim that Matic and Lukaku weren't his choices too.
 
That wasn’t my question...

You said Ed was making a commercial decision. But a transfer is first and foremost a football decision. Which correct me if I’m wrong, is not his expertise?
75M for Maguire is a footballing decision? It's a braindead decision.
 
Ladies and gentlemen you are now entering the hindsight zone.

In 2013 Klopp had recently won back to back league titles in Germany, plus their domestic cup and taken Dortmund to a CL final. He did this with exciting, attacking football and on a small budget. Moyes meanwhile was winning nothing while playing hoofball to Fellaini.

Lots of United fans at the time wanted Klopp, very few wanted Moyes. You are delusional if you think this is hindsight.
 
I don't get this, not so long ago most posters defending Mourinho were using his transfer dealings as proof, now none of the players are his. And when I think about Dier and Morata, I wonder if at some point someone is going to claim that Matic and Lukaku weren't his choices too.

Just wait for big drop in form, then it will be how Jose wanted Dier and Morata but Woodward signed Matic and Lukaku.
 
In 2013 Klopp had recently won back to back league titles in Germany, plus their domestic cup and taken Dortmund to a CL final. He did this with exciting, attacking football and on a small budget. Moyes in contrast was winning nothing while playing hoofball to Fellaini.

Lots of United fans at the time wanted Klopp, almost nobody wanted Moyes. You are delusional if you think this is hindsight.

IIRC, Klopp turned down ManUtd as he didn't want to leave Dortmund at that point. Van Gaal did good job in his first season and that's when Klopp resigned and Liverpool got lucky.
 
Woodward:

- spending the summer pretending to sign fabregas, waiting all summer to sign fellaini so he could pay OVER Fellainis buyout clause to sign him, then making a fumbling attempt to get at left back in at 11.30pm on deadline day. Waiting so long to move for Herrera that we had to wait a whole extra year to get him.

- stories when LVG took over of him telling players to fight for a place only for Woodward to go behind his back telling their agents to find them a new club, so Woodward would then have funds to bring in players like Falcao who LVG never asked for, resulting in LVG spending half his first season complaining about how "imbalanced" our squad was. Then come the second season LVG is moaning about the club not signing the players he actually wanted, or the "profile" of players he wanted. Mentioning Pedro constantly for some reason.

- Mourinho right from the off being shocked at how terribly organised everything at the club was, including our pre season schedule, and now seemingly being in the same position LVG was in where Woodward decides to "back" him by making his own decisions about what players we need.

- this idiotic situation we have where we deliberately let half our squad run their contracts down as if this won't cause any kind of unrest or problems down the line.

- I don't care which kitchen company is our official sponsor, I care how well the team is managed and run. We did perfectly fine with money before Woodward was on the scene. The main difference he's coincided with is the football side of the club suddenly being run embarrassingly badly year after year. It has reached a point where it is no longer possible that he isn't part responsible.

Exactly.

Yes we don't know exactly what Woodward does and doesn't do... but it's fair to build a picture based on what our managers and journos say (especially if enough of them are saying it).
 
Seriously.



Where did I say that?




Haven't played football manger since this.
latest
The Glazers aren't too bothered about how Manchester United do in a footballing capacity, for them it's a licence to print money. They syphon money off the club (after riddling with debt first) every year to pay for their other failing ventures, such as the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or their shopping malls that have consistently closed down. Bottom line is, they need United to stay rich, they were staring at bankruptcy until the takeover happened. They don't care if we don't win the PL ever again as long as some blokes in China buy official merchandise. They're happy to turn us into the McDonalds or Coke-Cola of the sporting world.

Ed Woodward is their man, someone they appointed to do what he does best, and that's increase the commercial profile of the club. His goals are to get United's name on everything and anything as long as it pays enough. Again, does he care more than the Glazers about United winning the league or being competitive? Probably, but only because it makes his job easier if we're winning stuff, and even if we're not, he just points at Twitter and Instagram followers when a new sponsor comes along.

Now these are the people in charge of making the major decisions at our club, and these are people with non footballing interests at heart.

To swap out a manager for another manager when you've got this lot running things is only going to lead to more of the same. Until we address the fundamental issues at our club we'll never compete for the league again, unless we unearth a truly exceptional manager ala Fergie.

We need to hire a DoF with a long term plan for the club, who know's what United are about and the Glazers/Woodward have to back the manager 100%, and if the manager says our CB's aren't good enough, buy Harry Maguire, then that's what they fecking do. Regardless of the players marketability or their assessment of the players ability.
 
Except we're a football club, commercialism should come last.

Not really, one finance the other and the other make financing possible, they go together. Our wage bill alone isn't covered by prize money and TV rights, any high ambition is totally dependent on our commercial capabilities. I will try to not repeat it again but the issue with the board isn't about money or any focus on commercial deals, it's a managerial issue where Woodward and Avram Glazer failed to recognize the fact that SAF had a particular structure that was totally dependent on himself and a couple of other people when he left we lost that structure and there is no one able to emulate it, so they should have went in the conventional direction with multiple people doing the job done by SAF instead of trying to find a new SAF.

What I'm saying isn't less damning but the club spendings in terms of transfers, wages and even Mourinho's alleged wage should tell you something about how much the club is willing to invest. I think that we simply reached a point where they realized that they don't know how to spend efficiently, they should have realized that earlier but it seems that they finally did.
 
Read the James Ducker article in the Telegraph from Monday, it’s an excellent summation of why the majority of the blame rests with the club hierarchy and not Jose. This isn’t to say that Jose is faultless, but it’s clear he’s being inhibited in his ability to do his job.
 
In 2013 Klopp had recently won back to back league titles in Germany, plus their domestic cup and taken Dortmund to a CL final. He did this with exciting, attacking football and on a small budget. Moyes meanwhile was winning nothing while playing hoofball to Fellaini.

Lots of United fans at the time wanted Klopp, very few wanted Moyes. You are delusional if you think this is hindsight.
I think on Caf's poll, Moyes was second only to Mourinho back then, and even before, everytime there was talk about our manager when Fergie leaves, Moyes was one of the leading candidates. Of course, there were many people on the other side who were 'everyone but Moyes'.

But yeah, for whatever reason, a lot of people rated Moyes. And well, a lot of people don't watch much football outside of EPL.

Anyway, it is an academic discussion now. Ed apparently offered the job to Klopp on 2014 (when Moyes was sacked) but Klopp wanted to continue staying at BVB. Then we hired LVG, Klopp had that disastrous season with BVB and then joined Liverpool.
 
My frustration at the moment is with Ed and the board in general. My main frustration is that we have no visible plan, no long term structure, and no footballing vision.

As much as I hate to say it, City are doing exactly what we need to do. 6 or 7 years ago (might be more) they hired those two directors from Barcelona, and decided there and then that they were going to try to imitate and perhaps emulate the Barcelona team that dominated European football. They then started signing young players that fit that vision, and then got the last piece of the puzzle in Guardiola. I imagine that the manager that comes in next will have a similar style of play, allowing continuity.

Woodward, on the other hand, doesn't have a clue about football, and has hired managers that have completely different philosophies, rendering some previous players useless. This means that we have a squad overhaul every time a new manager comes in, which sets us back in comparison to the European elite. Leaving every football decision to the manager just isn't possible in the modern world of football. It now looks as if we're just going to repeat the same process again, with a shiny new manager next season, that will want a whole new squad and it's just irritating.

Another thing is the seeming lack of investment into other areas of the club. I remember before summer there was a brief by the club that they would rather invest in players than a stadium expansion, which is just such a ridiculously short term view it blows my mind.
 
I think on Caf's poll, Moyes was second only to Mourinho back then, and even before, everytime there was talk about our manager when Fergie leaves, Moyes was one of the leading candidates. Of course, there were many people on the other side who were 'everyone but Moyes'.

But yeah, for whatever reason, a lot of people rated Moyes. And well, a lot of people don't watch much football outside of EPL.

Anyway, it is an academic discussion now. Ed apparently offered the job to Klopp on 2014 (when Moyes was sacked) but Klopp wanted to continue staying at BVB. Then we hired LVG, Klopp had that disastrous season with BVB and then joined Liverpool.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/your-preference-for-the-next-manager.370323/

Klopp had more than twice as many votes as Moyes actually.

Laughably dishonest of the OP to say preferring Klopp to Moyes is 'hindsight'.
 
Yeah I agree with you that we spent the money badly. So the board will need to spend again. Is Jose the man to trust with that money? Not for me because how many of his signings have actually worked out. The team definitely shouldn’t be conceding possession at home to Leicester or conceding 3 goals to Brighton.

My point was the club made a mistake keeping too many old players around at the same time. You can’t just let all Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Scholes and Giggs go in one year and not expect a drop in quality. Fergie wasn’t ruthless enough in his latter years hence why he held onto average like Young and Cleverley.
Definitely. Herrera isn't becoming Xavi, neither is Lindelof becoming Baresi, so we need to spend money again. I would be really surprised and disappointed if within summer of 2020, we won't net spent another 300-400m pounds.

However, even more important is to take a step back, and analyze why despite spending 700m pounds in the last 5 years, we are still quite bad. Analyze everything, and build a structure that minimizes the risk of this happening again. Analyze also if Mourinho is the man to take us forward (I have lost any confidence on him), and make manager-independent signings. If we assume that the manager is going to replace every 2-3 years, we cannot make specific signings for each manager.

Just throwing more money won't solve much IMO. This is the reason, why I am not mad for this summer window. If we sacrificed one year to make things better on long term, then it is the right decision.
 
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/your-preference-for-the-next-manager.370323/

Klopp had more than twice as many votes as Moyes actually.

Laughably dishonest of the OP to say preferring Klopp to Moyes is 'hindsight'.
Ok, sorry then, he was third. Which is kind of incredible on itself. Thing is a lot of people wanted Moyes, and many more weren't expecting him to be the disaster he was. Considering that I was one of the most anti-Moyes people in this forum, I remember quite well how many debates I had with people for arguing that Klopp was a better manager. Heck, I remember having to defend my position that we should have hired Mourinho instead.
 
People still asking this?

In your job, if your company doesn't meet it's purpose in, let's say selling most toilet papers in the world. You, the manger of the store always get replaced but the hiring manager always stays throughout these appointments. Is that fair? Is it not the infrastructure that is bad?

At man utd, we haven't won anything major since 2013. We have had 3 managers who have been poor. There is not set structure in footballing side for a common attacking philosophy. Down the road they are doing the right things, but at united...it's more focused on business aspect.

Don't think you should fire Ed, but put him under pressure. There is a difference. He thinks he can make mistakes in footballing side and get away with it as he is so good handling the business side. He just needs to buck up his ideas and change the infrastructure for the footballing side. He has made improvements to the Traning grounds etc which a positive.
 
Ok, sorry then, he was third. Which is kind of incredible on itself. Thing is a lot of people wanted Moyes, and many more weren't expecting him to be the disaster he was. Considering that I was one of the most anti-Moyes people in this forum, I remember quite well how many debates I had with people for arguing that Klopp was a better manager. Heck, I remember having to defend my position that we should have hired Mourinho instead.

Those were the days. And when it's proven he's shit they still have the audacity to defend their vote because they're redder than most.

Dark times.
 
Why did Pep only get 7 votes? WTF! Is it because he had already agreed to join Bayern or because people were pissed off by the two defeats in CL finals against him?
Needs Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, checkbook manager, blah blah blah.
 
Ed should be nowhere near anything football or transfer related, that's my problem with him.
 
What is a plan?

Everything seems to be in place at United, but it's just not clicking.
A working plan can be realizing that we needed better quality at left-back, right-wing & CB to play the kind of football we last season tried to, going out identifying good targets for those positions and getting them.
Signing Fred wasn't a bad thing, we needed more in our midfield and his profile seems to fit (hard-working capable at both doing the job defensively, playing through pressure and getting a through-ball), and if we are to trust Valencia then Dalot as a talented backup isn't a bad move either, but I think most our fanbase could havew said before the season ended that we needed a proper left-back and someone who makes us not fully reliable on playing through our left side in order to become so easy to defend against.
Our priorities should have been left-back and right-winger.

As for alternatives, in recent times these have moved (or have been said to be available):
LB: Mendy. (Sandro, Gaya, Tierney, Telles & Robertson, (with Rose being another option if we go away from hindsight)
CB: Laporte, Van Dijk & Bonucci (Alderweireld)
RB: Mahrez, Dembele, Costa & Silva (Pulisic)

And that's looking only at the ones who have moved or been rumored to move.
We've signed some good player, so it's not all doom and gloom, Matic, Pogba, Fred, Lukaku, Bailly, Lindelöf, Martial, Mkhitaryan & Sanchez might not all have worked out but were all signed to work in areas we were weak in. (except for Sanchez assuming now that he wasn't signed to be on the right)

I have been happy enough with our progress up until this window where I think we bought way too little and only on 1 semi-problem area as well as a rotation-alternative.
I expected us to at the very least on top of what we got sign one, preferably two more of the 3 problem-areas we have left, because in not too long we'll have to replace Matic in the first eleven, and we won't know if Pereira or McTominay will take the step to the quality needed to be a first choice player, and I'm now assuming that Dalot will naturally take over from Valencia.

That's just the last few years though, as for a plan under Woodward, there seems to have been none:
When he came into the position he said we can do what nobody else can do in the market. I'll excuse giving Moyes the job as it wasn't at least fully down to him.
LvG however was a disaster in every possible way, that same year Allegri moved to Juventus, Conte went to Chelsea, Pochettino went to Spurs, and a year after Klopp moved to Liverpool, Ancelotti went to Bayern. At the same time Emery certainly was available. Simeone might've been a stretch, but can't say it would have been impossible either.

Playing-styles we went to and from:
We went from Moyes who wanted to get it out to the wings to the theme of Benny Hill ran people crazy, again not something I put down to Woodward, but from him to LvG who was so scared of his own shadow that he wanted desperately to keep the ball at all times and not do anything that could get us a goal (we scored 49 goals during his last season) to Mourinho who has done a ok job at getting us higher up the table with results, but bores half our fanbase to death with reactive football instead of football that aims to entertain (mind, I'm not one of those who want Mourinho gone, but tons of our fanbase do want him gone because the style bores them).

We're all over the place, whether it's manager type or signings we've made pre-Mourinho. There is no certain plan to how we've wanted to make the team progress since Fergie called it quits. "Get in a renowned manager and give him some cash, if he doesn't do it for us then we'll fire him and hire another renowned manager and give him some cash" seems to be our plan, and it's certainly not one that will help us in the long-term, especially not if we are going to argue with the manager over a potential signings quality just because one of his earlier signings didn't live up to standards wanted.

For comparison in that aspect, Liverpool signed Karius during Klopps time, they didn't tell him no when he wanted to upgrade him with Alisson.
Same goes for when they signed Van Dijk after already having signed Klavan & Matip. No one is telling him he can't buy Keita or Fabinho because he purchased Grujic, Chamberlain or Wijnaldum.

City didn't stop backing Guardiola because Hart was replaced by the failure Bravo, and then wanted to replace him again with Ederson, and they certainly didn't stop signing player after player for ~30-50 million in positions he already had good players (Mendy, Walker, Danilo, Mahrez, Stones, Silva, Jesus, Gundogan etc).

Woodward & the board giving Mourinho a new contract just to half a year later not support him in the transfer-market isn't good planning. Back him or fire him. If they want a change of style then I'm sure a lot of people would understand that, but from Moyes to Van Gaal to Mourinho and then telling Mourinho that they decide the need of the squad suggests that style matters zip, zero & zilch and they are really only interested in minimising investment to stay as profitable as possible.
 
Last edited: