A talented coach could get the best out of this team and finishing top 3/4 and challenging for top trophies. ETH isn’t one of those coaches and can’t even decide what his best formation, tactics or 11 are, never mind implement a completely new formation.
Why not 343?
- Thread starter MikeUpNorth
- Start date
In the case of Lisandro and Yoro I think it could be too CB-y in the centerback to have a strong counterargument, but still the change in responsibility and roles does make it quite different from just 5 at the back or simply adding an extra centerback.
It does also depend on who you put in the wingback-positions, as it's quite different to have, say, AWB and Malacia in wingback positions, compared to:
- Frimpong/Grimaldo (Leverkusen's style with them being very direct additional forces in goals and assists);
- Bernardo/Grealish (like two seasons ago at City with two playmakers with stamina);
- Moses/Alonso (Conte's Chelsea and them pretty much being on the sides to cover a lot of space, with the stamina and just enough technical abilities to get a lot of profit out of the space afforded to them by opponents focusing on Hazard and such - basically the first prototype of the modern 3/5 at the back systems, but an approach that has become more out-of-touch with the more holistic/all round styles in the current era of football, with perhaps Frimpong and Grimaldo coming closest in their "classic" attacking wingback roles, but their speed or technical abilities being quite a bit beyond these more "base" versions)
- Llorente/Lino (a box2box/hole player midfielder and a winger in a more asymmetrical style like Atletico's current setup).
But also even compared to Mazraoui and Shaw. They are both more used to a fullback position, but Mazraoui used to be a midfielder and Shaw has also grown into more of a playmaking fullback over the years, making them more of a hybrid option at the wingback in case the strategies would move in that direction.
Based on ETH's general approach I think he will stick to the space for Mazraoui, Dalot and Shaw being inverted fullbacks. But as an option here, especially if Yoro and Lisandro (or even Shaw at LCB?) show comfort and covering more space on the sides rather than focusing on the center, I think it would really fit better to call it a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 rather than a 5-4-1.
The reason something like this worked more as a 3-4-2-1 at Leverkusen for instance, is when Stanisic played RCB to Frimpong's RWB is that depending on the run of play, Stanisic was basically RB with Frimpong moving more towards either RW or even AM/SS. If it were 5-2-2-1 Frimpong would be running up and down the wing and do much more defensive work than his usual role entails. That makes it different from how you could just add Maguire or De Ligt at the end to defend the lead or against crosses, etc, and it's basically just stacking the defense more. But based on some of his earlier work - as starting XIs - I'd see ETH turning the wingbacks into something either more offensive or midfielder-like in case he opts for such a setup. His latest seasons at Ajax basically were that, actually, and even with Mazraoui and Lisandro taking on those very roles.
As - on paper - Alvarez was DM, Mazraoui was RB and Blind LB, but in practice it was much closer to a 3-4-3 with Mazaoui and Blind acting way more as (offensive/side) midfielders than as fullbacks, except for possible under-pressure moments, and with Alvarez being the physical force between the more creative Timber and Licha, who joined midfield very often. I guess that means that if Yoro can do a Timber-like (or Azpilicueta, Ake, Gvardiol, Walker, Reinildo, Hermoso, etc etc) job, than a 3-4-3/3-5-2/etc could be an (offensively apt) option for us. Because I think you'd be better of playing Mazraoui RCB than Maguire or De Ligt if you want the team to be able to build up and be a threat offensively and such, instead of just being a fancy renaming of a 5-4-1, like you said.
But it could be an idea, especially if neither Casemiro nor Ugarte get things ticking, to move responsibilities in control and build up to another system. Again, if Yoro works as RCB as well, I could see something like the following setup working for us:
| Onana | ||
| Yoro (Mazraoui) Lindelof | De Ligt Maguire Evans | Licha (Shaw) (Lindelof) (Malacia) |
| Ugarte Casemiro Collyer | Mainoo Eriksen Gore | |
| Mazraoui Dalot (Amad) (Antony) (Bruno) | Shaw (Dalot) Malacia Antony (Mount) | |
| Bruno Amad Mount | ||
| Hojlund Garnacho | Zirkzee Rashford |
Or some variation of this (though I can imagine the second/alternative choices being question marks at wingbacks in case less than two of Dalot/Shaw/Mazraoui wouldn't play there)
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If we want to switch to a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 formation, we need a coach with that playing philosophy. Alonso, Motta, and Amorim are examples of that. The problem is that we don't have wing-backs.It would be interesting to see if Antony and Amad can play in that position apart from Shaw, Mazraoui and Dalot. We would have a front two (Hojlund, Kirzkee, Garnacho and Rashford as forwards).
Rashford, an exciting winger?!
It is time.
It actually suit this squad in which we have zero natural wingers
Still think the issue is the lack of compactness or any real direction/belief in our play rather than what formation you fit around it.
No reason why 3-4-3 can't work if the players are clear on what they're being asked to do and do it with the right intensity, and as a functioning unit. But then no reason why 4-2-3-1 can't work if you apply the same argument. Largely it suits and doesn't suit the same players because the main determining factor is whether or not they are any good.
Problem was ETH formation was more:
---------------GK
-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
-------CB--------------------CB
--------------------------------------------
-------------------DM
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------CM
-----------------------------------------RB
---------------------AM----------------------------LW----LB
--------RW-------CF-------------------------------
2-1-1-1-3-2?
4 but sometimes 3 or even 2 - 2 but usually 1- 3 but sometimes 5 - 1?
The first step to improvement is being able to watch a United game and have a clue what the feck we are actually doing.
No reason why 3-4-3 can't work if the players are clear on what they're being asked to do and do it with the right intensity, and as a functioning unit. But then no reason why 4-2-3-1 can't work if you apply the same argument. Largely it suits and doesn't suit the same players because the main determining factor is whether or not they are any good.
Problem was ETH formation was more:
---------------GK
-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
-------CB--------------------CB
--------------------------------------------
-------------------DM
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------CM
-----------------------------------------RB
---------------------AM----------------------------LW----LB
--------RW-------CF-------------------------------
2-1-1-1-3-2?
4 but sometimes 3 or even 2 - 2 but usually 1- 3 but sometimes 5 - 1?
The first step to improvement is being able to watch a United game and have a clue what the feck we are actually doing.
I'm wondering if he will slightly tweak his tactic from 3-4-2-1 to 3-4-1-2?
GK: Onana
RCB: Lindelof*
CCB: de Ligt
LCB: Martinez
RWB: Mazraoui
DM: Ugarte
CM: Mainoo
LWB: Dalot
CAM: Fernandes
RF: Rashford
LF: Hojlund
* Whilst Yoro is injured
New LWB is essential for this to work as we currently have no natural width and athleticism on that side currently unless we believe Antony and/or Amad could do it which I'm doubtful. (I've lost all hope for Shaw and Malacia)
GK: Onana
RCB: Lindelof*
CCB: de Ligt
LCB: Martinez
RWB: Mazraoui
DM: Ugarte
CM: Mainoo
LWB: Dalot
CAM: Fernandes
RF: Rashford
LF: Hojlund
* Whilst Yoro is injured
New LWB is essential for this to work as we currently have no natural width and athleticism on that side currently unless we believe Antony and/or Amad could do it which I'm doubtful. (I've lost all hope for Shaw and Malacia)
Mainoo isn't secure enough in a 343
I agree. We’ve not won a single game with Mainoo in a 343……
He’s never payed 3412 as such but has played a more fiat 343 but the main reason he likes 3421 are triangle formations LCB, LWB, L10, RCB, RWB, R10…… Pivot CB, DM, CM, this is how his teams progress the ball and like to dominate possession.
Higher up the pitch
RWB, R10, CFW,….LWB, L10, CFW
R10, L10, CF these patterns of play to progress the ball through the thirds also means that each player within that triangular zone must cover the others players in the triangular Zone, it’s why his teams are so compact and don’t concede high levels of goals, however there is space especially our wide in quick turnovers for the opposition teams.
What it does mean without exception, every member of the squad must be super fit and prepared to work for the team, not themselves? He also likes simple passing rather than extravagant passing and holding on to the ball. He will not play with Dalot and Mazraoui both as wing backs, he’ll use one at Right CB, maybe ahead of Lindelof and he’ll use Amad or Garnaucho as his other, Bruno, Mount, Zirkzee and Rashford will be inside 10’s.
Amorim’s systems is all about triangles and 3 man partnerships, he won’t change or compromise his beliefs for prima Dona players, he’ll just work with them to change and if they don’t change he’ll sell them.
Ah ok thanks for the info
Does he not always play the wingbacks on the same side as their strong foot?
I can definitely see something like that. Apparently aside from the 343, that's the only formation his teams have played.
On the couple of occasions I've seen them this season, Quenda has been right wingback and is very young, left-footed and said to be a natural winger.
so is the width held on the left side instead or do the 10's make wide runs?
Quenda hugged the touchline. I would say the team lacked penetrative running down that side. Not watched them extensively though.
Pretty much yes he has a left footer on the left and right footer on the right but he has inverted 10’s so a left footed as Right sided 10, which is where I see Amad having a great chance, Amorim system suits him and Bruno more than Rashford, Garnaucho or Antony and so don’t see any of them playing Wing back which is a shame because Antony might actually find his mojo playing there, I can see Amorim sitting down with Marcus and telling him, his best position will be as the Spearhead number 9 or maybe a inside right second striker, but I have a feeling both Rasmus and Zirkzee will be benched with one being sold in the summer.
This is how I see him setting up as his first 11 if all players are fit initially;
3421
A Onana
L Yoro
M De Ligt
L Martinez
N Mazraoui
M Ugarte
K Mainoo
L Shaw
Amad
Bruno
Rashford
I think we will only be in for one player in winter and that will be a left wing back, if we can’t afford Alt Nouri, A Fernandes.
Do t be surprised he agrees to Ben Chillwell coming on loan to the summer, he’s not featured for Chelsea and Amorim loves players whose careers are at crossroads, he loves developing them.
I might be wrong, we might have money but I doubt it, he will also rotate that midfield 4 which is DM/CM/R10/L10 Box.
He could easily play ; Casemiro, Mount, Bruno, Eriksen as a 4 be prepared for shocks. He could pick a starting 11 like this ;
A Onana
N Mazroui
M De Ligt
L Shaw/L Martinez
A Garnaucho
Casemiro
C Eriksen
D Dalot
M Mount
Bruno
R Hojlund
It’s important to remember that he’s incredibly insightful and his idea of hunting the ball in triangles and creating attacking patterns in triangles is where’s he’s different.
His philosophy is if the Right CB is dragged wide to put pressure on the opposition left winger than the RWB must pick up the Left FB and the right DM pick up the player in the left 10 half space.
He wants the ball, he demands wining the ball back quickly then attack with efficient attacking patterns, imagine a triangle rotating on one of the three points then joining and creating another triangle. Possessing the ball is important but he expects a goal scoring opportunity to come from the possession.
For example RDM moves the ball to left DM then pivots now to Left CM while the RCB then steps into his vacated space now you have the right DM becoming Left CM joined by Left DM with the left Wing Back being the end game to then form another attacking triangle with L10/AM and CF to create an overload and a goal scoring opportunity.
If he can coach these players to work in his system, we’ll be an awful lot better however I have genuine fears for Rashford and Garnaucho in this system. I also think Lindelof or Maguire will be gone and I also think Casemiro, Eriksen, Shaw, Mallacia, Zirkzee, Mount and shockingly Martinez will all have to prove fitness and that they can adapt to his system or he’ll get rid without any hesitation?
I see 343 as the modern 442. They offer similar functions, with an aim of naturally closing down spaces through its natural width, the ability to easily transition to a defensive phase without altering the team shape, the ability to spray the ball to different flanks due to natural width and the ability to progress the ball through the flank areas if needed. The 442 is currently not in style due to the lack of coverage it provides against teams looking to break lines, particularly possession based teams. The 343 naturally has an extra defensive position, and therefore is able to deal with those issues far better.
Why do you think he'll go for Rashford as the 1st choice #9? Personally don't think he has the work rate required to run the channels and thought Rasmus profiles pretty well alongside Gyokeres? (also can see Zirkzee leaving at some point and not really sure why he was brought in??)
Was that Alvaro Fernandez you were referring to by "A. Fernandes"? I don't watch anything (to be honest) of the Portuguese league - has he developed well? Is he athletic enough to provide that width on the left?
Think the main thing I'm curious on will be what he does at LWB. The rest there are clear options and decent depth so he could of course pick any of them, but none would be a big surprise. It's LWB where everyone is injured and there is no clear choice. Does he end up just going with Shaw once he's fit? Does he use dalot/Mazraoui on their weaker sides? Does he move Amad there or even Antony to get a left footer there?
Otherwise it's basically this for the rest:
Otherwise it's basically this for the rest:
- GK - onana, altay
- RCB - Yoro, Lindelof
- CB - De Ligt, Maguire
- LCB - Martinez, Shaw, Evans
- RWB - Dalot, Mazraoui
- RCM (def) - Ugarte, Casemiro
- LCM (playmaker) - Mainoo, Bruno, Eriksen, or just Casemiro partnering Ugarte
- LWB - ????
- RAM - Bruno, Amad, Mount, Antony?
- LAM - Rashford, Garnacho
- ST - Hojlund, Zirkzee
I have always felt that 343/3421 can suit us well given the personnel at our disposal. Even with Amo's preference for a 3421 I think we have enough depth available to navigate until the end of the season:
Onana / Bayindir
Yoro/Lindelof de Ligt/Maguire Martinez/Evans
Mazraoui/Dalot Ugarte/Casemiro Mainoo/Mount Shaw/Antony
Bruno/Amad......Rashford/Garnacho
Hojlund/Zirkzee
Yoro/Lindelof de Ligt/Maguire Martinez/Evans
Mazraoui/Dalot Ugarte/Casemiro Mainoo/Mount Shaw/Antony
Bruno/Amad......Rashford/Garnacho
Hojlund/Zirkzee
This 343 business is probably a moot point anyway, we've always need more than formations. I do hope he does have and is willing to pivot it doesn't work out though.
He seems to like left footed RWB’s. Quenda as mentioned and Catamo played there most of last season who is left footed too.
What I liked last night was when sporting were under huge pressure by city in 1st half and they nicked the ball back their number 8 played a first time switch pass from their left side of pitch to their right side and the young RWB was hugging the touchline and the amount of space he had just to drive forward with the ball, created an attack on goal. Took the whole Man City shape out of the game with that switch of play.
The advantages of playing high and wide can be seen once the players grasp it.
We have midfielders that can spot 1st time passes and switch of play. Casemiro very good at it and Eriksen and Bruno.
The advantages of playing high and wide can be seen once the players grasp it.
We have midfielders that can spot 1st time passes and switch of play. Casemiro very good at it and Eriksen and Bruno.
Finding suitable players who can play the wind back roles is basically what will dictate how well we'll play this year imo. LWB like LB has been our issue for a while now and still hasn't been addressed.
The player that makes the most sense for me is Antony if he can drag his general play up to standard. Maybe a new coach and role will help mitigate his weaknesses. Long term I think we buy a starting LWB but Antony is more of an old school winger rather than a wide forward like Rashford or Garnacho. I don't think either could put in a good cross for the sake of argument.
Personally I'd say:
GK - Onana, Altay
RCB - Yoro, Mazraoui, Lindelof
CB - De Ligt, Maguire
LCB - Martinez, Shaw, Evans
RWB - Dalot, Mazraoui
RCM (def) - Ugarte, Casemiro
LCM (playmaker) - Mainoo, Bruno, Eriksen, Mount
LWB - Antony, Amass, Shaw
LAM & RAM- Bruno, Amad, Mount, Antony, Garnacho
ST - Hojlund, Rashford, Zirkzee
Replace Shaw with Dalot, I'd like to see it then.
We literally scored from a wonderful Rashford cross just over a week ago.
I actually think we could see Mainoo used in one of the two behind the striker to give us more control in possession and allow for both Casemiro and Ugarte to sit as the 6 and 8
I think he will start with 3 5 2 and reveert to 343 later
If you want Rashford strictly defending in a 5 and chucking in crosses then be my guest. I don't think that's the best way to utilise him but each to their own.
But that's not how Amorim uses his wingbacks though, so it's not what he'd be doing is it.