Why not 343?

MikeUpNorth

Wobbles like a massive pair of tits
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Apr 26, 2007
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If we've got many good central defenders, decent wingbacks and struggling wingers, why not go three at the back?

Onana
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Mainoo - Ugarte - Shaw
Bruno - Hojlund - Garnacho
​
Bruno can float about as he pleases.
 
It’s hard to put together a formation which gets all our best players in their best positions. Your 343 is an example of this. It takes out some of our most attacking players and makes us quite defensive - when what we need is more goals! Also Bruno ‘floating around’ would mean in practise we have no right side to our attack.

I quiet like a 442 diamond myself, something like

Onana
Mazraoui de Ligt Martinez Shaw
Ugarte
Mainoo Casemiro
Bruno
Zirkzee Hojlund​

But then you are quite narrow and missing out exciting wingers like nacho and Rashy.
Goes to show what a tough job Erik has and how good our squad actually is.
 
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Plant0x84 said:
It’s hard to put together a formation which gets all our best players in their best positions. Your 343 is an example of this. It takes out some of our most attacking players and makes us quite defensive - when what we need is more goals! Also Bruno ‘floating around’ would mean in practise we have no right side to our attack.

I quiet like a 442 diamond myself, something like

Onana
Mazraoui de Ligt Martinez Shaw
Ugarte
Mainoo Casemiro
Bruno
Zirkzee Hojlund

But then you are quite narrow and missing out exciting wingers like nacho and Rashy.
Goes to show what a tough job Erik has and how good our squad actually is.
Click to expand...
How is your formation particularly more attacking? You've just swapped Garnacho for Zirkzee and Yoro for Casemiro.
 
Any 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 relies on attacking wing backs. Mazraoui and Dalot would be ok on the right but we don’t have a fit left back. Dalot actually surprised with the quality cross he put in left footed against Brighton but that doesn’t make him Marcelo or Jordi Alba all of a sudden.

Compared to Leverkusen having Frimpong and Grimaldo who are quality going forward and iffy at the back and you can see how different our full backs strengths are.
 
Back 3s and narrow formations live and die by how well your wingbacks can play when asked to do a hell of a lot of work. Most of the time we don't know if our wingbacks can play at all.
 
I don't really see how it helps us. You need specialist players to play wing backs and I'm not sure about the suitability of our full backs. You'd be putting more strain on Shaw and tempting fate with more injuries as well.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
If we've got many good central defenders, decent wingbacks and struggling wingers, why not go three at the back?

Onana
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Mainoo - Ugarte - Shaw
Bruno - Hojlund - Garnacho
​
Bruno can float about as he pleases.
Click to expand...
Because you have essentially dropped an attacker for a centre back and we already don't score enough goals.

Plus, it's essentially 5-4-1 however you want to frame it.
 
This is exactly how I'd expect us to setup come January if Ten Hag is binned after a poor start and Tommy twinkle toes Tuchel becomes our manager.
 
Bruno Fernandes is why we cannot play anything other than 4-2-3-1.
 
I didn't want Tommy Tuch in the summer and would have accepted him only reluctantly, but he is best from all the available options in the market. If he comes then 343/3412 could be a possibility. We also have 6 defenders on the books and it might just work as we are short of good midfielders. Antony also might find a new lease of life as left wing back in that formation.

Onana / Bayindir

Maguire/Lindelof de Ligt/Yoro Martinez/Evans

Dalot/Mazraoui Ugarte/Casemiro Mainoo/Mount Shaw/Antony

Amad/Zirkzee Bruno/Hojlund Garnacho/Rashford
​
I think this could work. Our slow defense wouldn't get as exposed as it does in a 4231; especially Martinez. Midfield would be more solid and Mainoo could be used in a more advanced position, where he'd be better suited, imo.
 
We are already building up in a 3-4-3 / 3-6-1 shape in our half. Defensively I'm not convinced it solves the issue of our flanks can get exposed with a quick long ball, but that's clearly the risk we're willing to take. Anyway, despite Slot's big talk yesterday, the likes of City and Arsenal play the same though, and I thought we mostly did okay in those situations.

Our biggest problem yesterday was playing through the Liverpool press with them pressing with a front 4 and 2 hardworking CMs sitting wider to quickly track and close down the next ball. Our key build up players (Martinez, Casemiro and Mainoo) struggled with this and our midfielders and attackers seemed clueless as to how to react. I don't think we should be playing both Rashford and Garnacho at the same time. Amad offers better positioning and control in these situations when he's not having confidence issues. Zirkzee was also supposed to be that guy but was losing the ball too often. He made Mount look world class.
 
Kaos said:
This is exactly how I'd expect us to setup come January if Ten Hag is binned after a poor start and Tommy twinkle toes Tuchel becomes our manager.
Click to expand...
Tuchel has to be high on our list unless INEOS promise to build a new petrochem plant in Nagelsmann's home town!
 
Plant0x84 said:
It’s hard to put together a formation which gets all our best players in their best positions. Your 343 is an example of this. It takes out some of our most attacking players and makes us quite defensive - when what we need is more goals!
Click to expand...
I'd argue that's the wrong way to approach this. We don't have enough goals in the squad and there's no way round that. The solution is therefore to play very compact/defensive and try to win games 1-0.

If you can't score many goals, you need to make sure you concede even fewer!
 
Dannn411 said:
Bruno Fernandes is why we cannot play anything other than 4-2-3-1.
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This is such a myth. We have played Bruno on the right, the left, and deeper in a 4-3-3. He'd be perfectly capable of being one of the inside forwards in a 3-4-3, in fact I think that would really suit him.
 
DuruttiColumn said:
I’m not sure formations is our issue at the moment
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Our formation was 100% the problem against Liverpool (or more precisely, our formation not being implemented correctly). Our two midfielders were outnumbered because the front four were instructed to stay high and press, but the rest of the team failed to push up. Our system without the ball was absurdly open, and a 4-2-2-2 only works if the team remains compact.

On that basis, a 3-4-3 would actually help, because it would guarentee at least one more player behind the ball when we lose it. Our fullbacks already play like wingbacks anyway. Ultimately though it's a bandaid until our current coaching team effectively teaches our team to remain compact and press as a unit.
 
This group of United players from the last few years have been best suited to 352, imo.

Unfortunately, neither ETH or OGS had the vision to see this.

De Gea
Wan Bisaka Maguire Martinez
Dalot Paulhinha Fred Tavares
Bruno
Sancho Rashford

Instead of signing Casemiro, should've got Paulhinha from Sporting for £25m. Tavares much better wingback than fullback and would fit in with your portuguese contingent. The best Maguire performances have been in a back 3. Likewise with Wan-Bisaka as a RCB rather than fullback. Sanchos more effective through the middle than wide. Ronaldo would've suited a front 2 system to be a great option for couple years.

If you targeted a proper replacement for Fred alongside some shrewd squad signings; that team would've closed the gap to City in recent seasons.

I think you've had top talents, your managers haven't maximized.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Onana
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Mainoo - Ugarte - Shaw
Bruno - Hojlund - Garnacho​
Click to expand...

Ten Hag obviously doesn’t feel like changing the system or he would have done so long ago. And now that Ugarte is here, it will give him all the more reason to stick to his crappy system, just trying to make it work with Ugarte.

Despite that, I do think the 343 would be an improvement. We’d most likely concede less, to start with.
Would they give us fewer goals? Perhaps, but not for sure. This would give us 4 instead of 2 midfielders (because Bruno doesn’t count), and gives the opportunity to actually have a midfield, which is quite helpful if you want to have some control. Can’t score if you don’t have the ball, as the late Johan Cruijff used to say.
 
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Yes, I think 3-4-3 is definitely worth a try. Problem is that Yoro is still a couple of months away, so where does Maguire fit in a back 3?
 
George The Best said:
Yes, I think 3-4-3 is definitely worth a try. Problem is that Yoro is still a couple of months away, so where does Maguire fit in a back 3?
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He'd have to play in the middle due to his lack of pace. I wouldn't trust him covering the wide areas behind the wingbacks.
 
That would look very much like the death throes of Ten Hag gambling his survival on abdicating his plan A he obviously tried hard to implement (with the results we know). Unless he gets immediate results with it I'd be skeptical.

The main problem I'd have with it is that it means re-drilling the defense. It was already infamously unstable last season and has to assimilate 3 major signings (of which I'm unsure how many would be comfortable in a 3 or as a WB). It was the difference between finishing 3rd and 8th and so far it's unclear our attacking threat is any better than past two seasons.
 
George The Best said:
Yes, I think 3-4-3 is definitely worth a try. Problem is that Yoro is still a couple of months away, so where does Maguire fit in a back 3?
Click to expand...
Didn’t he play his best football for England in a back 3? Stick him in the middle as the other 2 can cover wider areas as they are quicker
 
This would make us a lot more solid. But can ETH coach something he’s never done before? He can’t even get the best out of them in his preferred formation. We’d need Tuchel or Amorim to make a 3-4-3 work. Maybe Alonso too
 
Do we want to be defensive or attacking…this to me would make us more solid at the back which is always good but I don’t see where the goals come when we need proper wingbacks. We had Valencia doing this years go and took to it well, will Mazza do it well? Shaw on the left forget it, hasn’t got the fitness to get up and down more so that our current formation. ETH will never go for this anyways.
 
Makes sense to get the team used to Amorim system when he becomes manager in Jan
 
Dannn411 said:
Bruno Fernandes is why we cannot play anything other than 4-2-3-1.
Click to expand...
This. Is it tactics he plays so high, or indiscipline from him? Either way it’s not working most of the time, and TH needs to sort it.
 
I could definitely see us doing this when Yoro is fit.

Would prefer 3-5-2 like below, but really requires Shaw to be fit as otherwise we lack a good option in the vital left wing back position.

-------------------------Onana--------------------------
------Yoro---------De Ligt------Martinez-------
Dalot---Mainoo-Ugarte-Fernandes-Shaw
------------Hojlund--------Rashford---------------

The main benefit of this is I could see the attack working better, and being better supported from midfield. I am not at all convinced that we will ever score enough with an attacking three, with current personnel.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
If we've got many good central defenders, decent wingbacks and struggling wingers, why not go three at the back?

Onana
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Mainoo - Ugarte - Shaw
Bruno - Hojlund - Garnacho
​
Bruno can float about as he pleases.
Click to expand...
How does this solve any of our problems?
 
wolvored said:
This. Is it tactics he plays so high, or indiscipline from him? Either way it’s not working most of the time, and TH needs to sort it.
Click to expand...
When mount plays in Bruno’s spot, there’s more control. So I guess it’s Bruno.

I’d like us to try a midfield where mount is 10 and Zirkzee (or Højlund) is striker
 
Dannn411 said:
Why would I play him there instead of an actual striker? You are aware how few goals we scored last year right?
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We don't currently have a fit striker who's going to score many goals for us, and last season ETH chose to play him there instead of one towards the end of the season. He's also played on both the left and right of the attack before and in different systems

Don't talk obvious bollocks about our formation being dictated by one of our players when it demonstrably isn't.

The problem with every formation suggested in this thread starts and ends with the fact ETH wants to use his current system and wants 2 of his 3 midfielders and both fullbacks pushed miles ahead of the ball. We could play exactly the same formation as now and look a lot more solid if it was set up less insanely.
 
noodlehair said:
We don't currently have a fit striker who's going to score many goals for us, and last season ETH chose to play him there instead of one towards the end of the season. He's also played on both the left and right of the attack before and in different systems

Don't talk obvious bollocks about our formation being dictated by one of our players when it demonstrably isn't.

The problem with every formation suggested in this thread starts and ends with the fact ETH wants to use his current system and wants 2 of his 3 midfielders and both fullbacks pushed miles ahead of the ball. We could play exactly the same formation as now and look a lot more solid if it was set up less insanely.
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Huh??? I was not justifying Ten Hag playing his 4-2-3-1. I also prefer a 3-4-3 but Bruno Fernandes is the biggest impediment to implementing that formation in a coherent and effective manner. He does not have the speed or effectiveness to play out wide, he does not have the discipline or patience to play as a central midfielder in a 2 and he sure as hell does not have anywhere near the hold up play ability or goals to play as a centre forward. For a 3-4-3 to work he has to be dropped. Simple as.
 
I already have said a few weeks ago that 3-5-2 would be our best formation.......but i have also said that we need to sign a right wing-back (Frimpong was available for a great price) and at least a decent left wing-back (because i don't think that Shaw can play this position many times over a whole season).

We are too open for 4-2-3-1 under Ten Hag and i'm not sure Ugarte will solve this problem therfore we must change something!!!!!

Therefore with the right coach for this 3-5-2 formation and a nearly fit squad then i really think that we could challenge for the "important trophies".


DEFENCE
De Ligt/Martinez/Yoro could play together and this "defence threesome" has the potential to be the best and sexy.

Shaw could play in two formations.....as left centre-back and left wing-back.....but like said i don't as starter in most matches because of his body (especially as left wing-back).

MIDFIELD
Of course 3-5-2 can only work with good wing-backs.
Like said Frimpong would have been perfect for our position as right wing-back position.........Mazraoui is so far decent for us but i would have gone for Frimpong.
Theo Hernandez as left wing-back would be amazing but of course unrealistic........but Ait-Nouri or Kerkez would have been okay too.

This formation should also help Casemiro to protect his body or his quality because 4-2-3-1 without Ugarte next to him will "kill him" and the combination Casemiro/Ugarte wouldn't play most matches because of course Mainoo will play the most matches.

It could also gives us various fantastic options in central midfield........Fernandes/Mount/Mainoo or Mainoo/Casemiro/Ugarte........Amad can play as central midfielder (He play this position in a 4-3-3 formation for Ivory Coast).

STRIKERS
Höjlund and Zirkzee aren't good enough to give us 20+ goals (At least currently) but i think both together on the pitch could really work fantastic.

Rashford is awful as left winger since a long time therefore as striker with a partner next to him could help him too to find a at least decent level.


------------------------------------Zirkzee----------------------Höjlund
---------X-----------Mainoo------------------Ugarte----------------------Fernandes--------Frimpong
---------------------Martinez-----------------De Ligt--------------------------Yoro
-----------------------------------------------------Onana

----------------------------------Rashford--------------------Garnacho
Shaw/Malacia-----Mount-----------------Casemiro-----------------------Amad--------------Dalot
------------------------Shaw-------------------Maguire-----------------------Lindelöf
----------------------------------------------------Bayindir

Other players: Heaton, Evans, Amass, Collyer, Eriksen, Antony & Wheatley
 
In a 3-5-2 formation, it suits our strengths considering the players we have and our limitations. Bruno behind the two forwards with Ugarte - Mainoo behind him sounds balanced. Also, we have Martinez, De Ligt, Yoro, and Maguire to rotate in the three positions. The forward line would have to be Garnacho/Rashford with Hojlund/Zirkzee.
 
Given ETH can’t even implement his own tactic in 3 seasons, the chance of him adapting to a totally new set up is slim. Playing 3 at the back could be a real possibility for this current squad of fully fit but won’t happen until he’s gone.
 
I remember in Ten first season when we played Juve away I think where we played 3 at the back and I thought we looked solid. As basic as that sounds when your struggling it’s a pragmatic starting point.

I’m not against this formation as some seem as I see football as being fluid anyway and it’s more about balance and application. I like to think we have alternative systems and formations anyway.

I think it also makes use of potentially two strong positions in central defenders and wing backs when fit while also covering up midfield weaknesses. This is all based on the premise though of the starting midfield in the first 3 games which isn’t our best for me. Plus it’s 3 games so yeah.
 
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