Why Man Utd’s Treble In 1999 Would Always Be Superior To Manchester City’s In 2023 (F365 article)

1.In 1999, any premier league team vs. any serie A team/Bayern (we faced inter and Juve) would be underdogs. In 2023, its the opposite, City are a shoe-in for the win in the final; they might as well cancel the game and hand them the trophy.

2. Our premier league rivals (especially Arsenal) were much much more formidable and experienced; it took a huge amount of mental and physical exertion win the league. City were competing against a bunch of kids and teams in transition.

3. City have cheated and have a bench that could make it to any other team's first 11. They can rotate and rest players easily without any real drip in quality. A good part of our squad was homegrown and our bench was never as good.

4. Because of all these factors, our treble had much more drama, was much more ridden with emotions and was much more organic. City's is a procession. Infact, with their squad, the should already have won the UCL atleast twice and maybe even one treble. Its more like Bayern's treble but with financial doping.
 
Real Name said:
I'm not sure, did you call City best PL team ever already. I didnt see that in 5 of your posts.
Do you think they're the best PL team ever?
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I'll probably keep saying it. Good to be objective, especially on such a biased forum.

My only hopes are: either Pep leaves soon (despite him recently saying that he's going to remain at City) or that their okay becomes even more direct and centered around Haaland, and that he gets injured.
 
RickRudesDong said:
I'll probably keep saying it. Good to be objective, especially on such a biased forum.

My only hopes are: either Pep leaves soon (despite him recently saying that he's going to remain at City) or that their okay becomes even more direct and centered around Haaland, and that he gets injured.
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Oh of course keep saying it in every of your posts. I think you should end your posts with - City is the greatest PL team ever.

As for underlined, another strange sentence. But keep it up.
 
Real Name said:
So we shouldnt ever remember and create threads about past glories just cause we havent won it in a while?
I simply dont get this logic. We should all feel sorry for ourselves and repeat every day how shit we are and how great Cityis.
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No. But making a thread on how hollow one's treble while we're fourth and reminiscing over our own past glory...

Yeah it's like the old dude that says back in my days i was handsome, vs this rich young boy who's now surrounded by hot chick.

Call him a luck bastard, lucky son of a gun if you want. But to deny that they're surrounded by chicks and it's fecking awesome and it shoukd have been us
 
B. Munich said:
Well I watched that match and United were second best for 90 min. A prime example of a smash and grab win.
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I think we’ve had this convo before but they retrospectively went back and applied xG scenarios on the game and United came out on top. We also come out on top with the basic stats too. So smash and grab it was not.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
The United treble is probably the best and most dramatic in history and one of the greatest moments in all of sport.

Just the Champions League final alone, beating Bayern Munich in the final with two goals in stoppage time - when have you ever seen that?

But also even the FA Cup alone was one of the best ever runs to that.

Beating a great Arsenal side in the FA Cup with Schmeichel saving the penalty and Keane sent off - then with 10 men Giggs scoring one of the best goals in the competition history.
Beating Liverpool with two stoppage time goals in an earlier round.
Beating Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal en route to the final.

Then the Champions League:

The greatest group stage games ever? Barcelona 3-3 United home and away, unbelievable.
Coming out of a group with La Liga champs Barca and Bayern Munich, the next best team in Europe
Beating Inter Milan and Juve in consecutive ties. Beating Juventus, away from home, from 2 goals down! This was a team that made the previous two Champions League finals and had the great Zinedine Zidane and Edgar Davids in midfield, but Roy Keane bossed them. It felt back then that shattered a lot of established truths about European football - Italian teams don't lose from 2 goals down at home, English sides don't beat them away.

Even the Premier League run-in was exciting, with United going behind in the game against Spurs.

---

What City moments this season can compare to those for drama? Honestly, can't think of any. Thrashing Real Madrid was memorable, if not dramatic. Arsenal game was a walkover, as was Bayern Munich. At least last season Liverpool were chasing and they went 2 down to Villa.

It's actually in City's interest strangely enough to struggle in the two finals coming up. Give people something to remember. A bit of adversity.
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I think you're right, the drama and closeness of almost every knockout game along the way just makes it better and the fact that Utd played and beat some the best teams around and coming from behind to win in the biggest of them, even in the last game of the league, that was incredible. FA cup final was the only one without real drama.

You can only beat what's in front of you, but City have basically sleepwalked through the league, got quite favourable FA cup draws and didn't face any real decent opposition in Europe.
 
The Corinthian said:
I think we’ve had this convo before but they retrospectively went back and applied xG scenarios on the game and United came out on top. We also come out on top with the basic stats too. So smash and grab it was not.
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I need to watch it back in the cold light of day but I do remember Bayern having the best chances, they almost broke the crossbar at one point. Obviously we won but had Bayern won I don’t think anyone could really have argued
 
In 1999 Italian teams were still relevant and very strong. Remember that Turin match? It was just unbelievable really considering it was Juventus!
God, luck, skill, whatever it was that season, was definitely with us. The fact it was unexpected and dramatic is what made it so blindingly good!
With city it’s all starting to feel a bit “chicken and beans”. No excitement, even for the neutral
 
Enjoy your hefty dose of copium if it helps you to sleep at night. Personally not having any of this. Let's rather focus on stopping them.
 
The Corinthian said:
I think we’ve had this convo before but they retrospectively went back and applied xG scenarios on the game and United came out on top. We also come out on top with the basic stats too. So smash and grab it was not.
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Not sure how accurate this is.

https://blogofthenet.wordpress.com/2020/05/18/forensic-analysis-1999-champions-league-final-xg/


1999-stats.jpg
 
golden_blunder said:
I need to watch it back in the cold light of day but I do remember Bayern having the best chances, they almost broke the crossbar at one point. Obviously we won but had Bayern won I don’t think anyone could really have argued
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Oranges038 said:
Not sure how accurate this is.

https://blogofthenet.wordpress.com/2020/05/18/forensic-analysis-1999-champions-league-final-xg/


1999-stats.jpg
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match-statistics.png


Your one is pretty much on the money - the above is from Statsbomb who specialise in football analytics.

The table is taken from here:

Manchester United 1999 treble xG breakdown: Bayern Munich, 1999 Champions League final | The Independent | The Independent

Here's a caveat to the above though:

Were it not for the late flurry and had they lost 1-0, United could not have much to complain about. Bayern did not create a lot in the way of clear-cut chances, as the underlying numbers demonstrate, but they still came within a few inches of establishing a 3-0 lead.

United, meanwhile, struggled to fashion many threatening chances until they absolutely had to. Their only real chances of note before stoppage time were Blomqvist’s and a Sheringham snap-shot in the box that was easily held by Khan.

But thanks to David Beckham’s delivery, some questionable Bayern defending, the instincts of Solskjaer and Sheringham plus the right bounce here or there, they created and scored through two excellent opportunities at the death.

Historically, goals from corners are converted around 2-3% of the time. To score two in a row at any time of any match is remarkable. To score them in stoppage time to win a Champions League final and complete a league, cup and European treble is simply extraordinary.

You might say that there was nothing ‘expected’ about Sheringham and Solskjaer’s goals at all. The sheer improbability of what United’s 1999 team achieved in those 103 seconds between equaliser and winner is why they are still celebrated and revered, two decades on.
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I don't really like looking at xG as a reason why we deserve x and this and that.

For me this game was two evenly matched sides that for the first half Bayern were better. 2nd half was a lot more even. And 3 mins of injury time in the 2nd half, we killed it.

Let's not forget, we had played them twice already in the group stage, and you couldn't separate the two.
 
The Corinthian said:
match-statistics.png


Your one is pretty much on the money - the above is from Statsbomb who specialise in football analytics.

The table is taken from here:

Manchester United 1999 treble xG breakdown: Bayern Munich, 1999 Champions League final | The Independent | The Independent

Here's a caveat to the above though:



I don't really like looking at xG as a reason why we deserve x and this and that.

For me this game was two evenly matched sides that for the first half Bayern were better. 2nd half was a lot more even. And 3 mins of injury time in the 2nd half, we killed it.

Let's not forget, we had played them twice already in the group stage, and you couldn't separate the two.
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From memory they were all even games between two evenly matched sides, I think Bayern hitting the woodwork twice in the final, might make people remember it differently.
 
Looking at the stats it was more evenly matched than the old brain remembers, though I was a little drunk that night too. Vividly recall them hitting the bar and thinking how close it was. The big fella (Jancker?) caused us some problems early on.
 
Our treble will never be tainted by financial or any other type of doping. Pure and simple.
 
golden_blunder said:
Looking at the stats it was more evenly matched than the old brain remembers, though I was a little drunk that night too. Vividly recall them hitting the bar and thinking how close it was. The big fella (Jancker?) caused us some problems early on.
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They scored early and it felt as if we couldn't break them down. That's if memory serves me right. But considering we were without Keane and Scholes we did as well as we could've hoped. Anyway it was only a quarter of a century ago!
 
Real Name said:
So you should remember the past only when you're winning and other team is losing?

I bet you're great at parties.
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You can remember the past whenever you want, I don't care. What the team accomplished in 1999 was amazing and will always be remembered.

I think it's a coping mechanism to refer to our past every time Manchester city does something good, as if it takes anything away from them. There will always be one team that was first... can't change history, you can only add to it... which is what they're doing, while we continue our decade run of mediocrity (ETH is fixing that thankfully).
 
Eli Zee said:
You can remember the past whenever you want, I don't care. What the team accomplished in 1999 was amazing and will always be remembered.

I think it's a coping mechanism to refer to our past every time Manchester city does something good, as if it takes anything away from them. There will always be one team that was first... can't change history, you can only add to it... which is what they're doing, while we continue our decade run of mediocrity (ETH is fixing that thankfully).
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Maybe its coping mechanism or maybe for some its just they're happy to remember. Crazy I know.

By your logic nobody should remember anything while City is doing something good.
 
golden_blunder said:
I need to watch it back in the cold light of day but I do remember Bayern having the best chances, they almost broke the crossbar at one point. Obviously we won but had Bayern won I don’t think anyone could really have argued
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I remember Jancker hitting the bar after a lob and I think they had another bar hit too plus 2 or 3 more chances. What a Bayern team that was, Effenberg, Basler, Koffour, Elber, Matthaus, Scholl.
 
golden_blunder said:
I need to watch it back in the cold light of day but I do remember Bayern having the best chances, they almost broke the crossbar at one point. Obviously we won but had Bayern won I don’t think anyone could really have argued
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I don't need to watch it again, on the day Bayern were much better than we were, given we were missing our 2 best midfielders that wasn't really a surprise, but they got too arrogant, they thought they had us beaten, and that's why they lost

Anyone who watched United in those days knew the team never gave up and had a record as long as your arm of scoring late goals
 
Real Name said:
I remember Jancker hitting the bar after a lob and I think they had another bar hit too plus 2 or 3 more chances. What a Bayern team that was, Effenberg, Basler, Koffour, Elber, Matthaus, Scholl.
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Didn’t one of them, possibly Jancker hit the bar with an overhead?
 
Real Name said:
Maybe its coping mechanism or maybe for some its just they're happy to remember. Crazy I know.

By your logic nobody should remember anything while City is doing something good.
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Maybe the thread should've been titled "why no one's treble will be as good as ours" and made before city were on the verge of a treble.. the fact it is made recently reeks of of insecurity.

I understand rivalry and history, but to have to go back 25 years just to say we're better than a team playing today is hilarious to me. Whatever, nothing more to say reallly. My opinion will be different than yours
 
golden_blunder said:
Didn’t one of them, possibly Jancker hit the bar with an overhead?
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Jancker hit the bar with an overhead kick, Scholl hit the post with a beautiful lob.

Bayern were pretty passive overall though, they weren't really looking to kill the game off and were content to just wait for opportunities.
 
Eli Zee said:
Maybe the thread should've been titled "why no one's treble will be as good as ours" and made before city were on the verge of a treble.. the fact it is made recently reeks of of insecurity.

I understand rivalry and history, but to have to go back 25 years just to say we're better than a team playing today is hilarious to me. Whatever, nothing more to say reallly. My opinion will be different than yours
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Cheers. Hopefully you'll be relieved when you see City do it.
 
Siorac said:
Jancker hit the bar with an overhead kick, Scholl hit the post with a beautiful lob.

Bayern were pretty passive overall though, they weren't really looking to kill the game off and were content to just wait for opportunities.
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Ah yes, thanks, mixed those up. Scholl hit the post, and Jancker a bar with an overhead kick. Just seen the highlights, other than that they had about 3 more clear cut chances nad few more shots near the goal.
 
Any excuse to post this. Just gave me goosebumps again. My greatest united goal.

 
The competition was definitely harder in 99, we had to beat arguably the best Arsenal team in history in the league and Cup, plus Liverpool, Chelsea and Newcastle in the cup. Then the champions league was ridiculous with Barca and Bayern in the group stage then playing the great Italian teams on the way to the final. And somehow beating Bayern without Keane and Scholes when squad depth was much smaller back then. And to top it off we did it all without cheating, there's no comparison.
 
Real Name said:
Cheers. Hopefully you'll be relieved when you see City do it.
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I hope they don't, but truth be told, It won't really affect me or anyone else (for the most part).

There was a Conor McGregor quote after a defeat many years ago where he said something about Jose Aldo like: "he can celebrate another man's victory, but when we faced, he was unconscious."

I want us to win the FA Cup final. i want us to be the one that beats our rivals and wins trophies, not hoping another team does it. Just my perspective.
 
Eli Zee said:
Maybe the thread should've been titled "why no one's treble will be as good as ours" and made before city were on the verge of a treble.. the fact it is made recently reeks of of insecurity.

I understand rivalry and history, but to have to go back 25 years just to say we're better than a team playing today is hilarious to me. Whatever, nothing more to say reallly. My opinion will be different than yours
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Fans reminiscing of the 1999 Treble won't evoke any of your emotions because you aren't old enough to remember that season but for the ones who enjoyed the thrill, they'll never be able to forget them. Anyone I'm off to watch some clips of Cantona, goals, red cards and poetry.
 
Spoony said:
They scored early and it felt as if we couldn't break them down. That's if memory serves me right. But considering we were without Keane and Scholes we did as well as we could've hoped. Anyway it was only a quarter of a century ago!
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Exactly how I remember it, they went 1-0 up and we were pressuring but they were hitting us on the break and created chances to kill the game, including the one off the crossbar that probably would've been game over, but we kept going and were on top at the end (kitchen sink mode) and mentality got us over the line, nothing between us in the group games or the final, could've gone either way, but to keep going like we did is just immense. Re: Scholes and Keane, that really kept us from getting a foothold until we threw everything at them towards the end...
 
Re: the actual thread, it's clear that if you look at it purely from a sporting point of view (i.e., without taking the £doping into consideration at all) then City (IF) they win it (I accept they are overwhelming favorites' obviously but they're not over the line yet) then they will have shown themselves to be head and shoulders above in their domestic league and beaten their local historied club and a historied European club along the way so well done, BUT it will be 'frictionless', that is, they have done it by being better by a long way, and unfortunately for them, it is pretty likely that it will be overshadowed by the £doping.

Being reported that Lopetegui might leave as there won't be funds due to FFP... How the other half live eh!
 
RickRudesDong said:
City's treble will be more impressive. They've outplayed everyone; we didn't.

Off-field issues aside, non-United fans will remember ours as a rollercoaster ride and theirs as the best PL team ever.
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Oil cannot beat drama.

Go and support the plastic club.
 
If that arsenal side that we had to deal with was placed into this season they would not have allowed city back in the race let alone allow them to win the league with ease.
 
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