Why is the club so married to the 4-2-3-1?

Adnan said:
There's a difference between predicting what will happen and what is happening currently. And what is happening and has happened is what we're discussing when it comes to Bruno Fernandes and not anything hypothetical.

The post you're quoting of mine I still stand by and I'm surprised ten Hag is still persisting with Bruno when both the eye test and the statistics pointing towards his profligacy in possession.

And regarding VdB, he's a player who is best utilised in a system where technical security is prevalent and he has shown to be a important cog in a team that looks to exert zonal and positional control in possession where he has shown to be a very secure player in all three phases of play. But we aren't playing like that currently and our current approach doesn't best suit his abilities. I was expecting a deep roaming playmaker and a more proactive keeper to come into the first 11, which in theory could've helped us get closer to becoming a technically secure team in possession and hence open up more opportunities for VdB imo.

But that didn't happen and we're seeing the same Bruno Fernandes contribute towards a lack of control and cohesion due to his profligacy on the ball. Maybe you need ten Hag telling you this, but it's pretty clear just by observing the game that he's been a liability on the ball.
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Right, so lets stick to what is happening and not Hypothetical, weren't you the one who said "He is lucky FdJ didn't sign" Isnt that a hypothetical? Or is it not because it suits you?

The same manager that utilised Donny thinks he is surplus to requirement and plays Bruno in most games and given him captaincy, that tells me that he rates Bruno much higher than Donny.

So Bruno is the reason we dont have control in games?
 
romufc said:
Right, so lets stick to what is happening and not Hypothetical, weren't you the one who said "He is lucky FdJ didn't sign" Isnt that a hypothetical? Or is it not because it suits you?

The same manager that utilised Donny thinks he is surplus to requirement and plays Bruno in most games and given him captaincy, that tells me that he rates Bruno much higher than Donny.

So Bruno is the reason we dont have control in games?
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Yes i'm the one who said he's lucky we didn't end up signing FdJ, because I expected Eriksen to feature more prominently in the attacking midfield role. And that hypothetical came about after you quoted one of my posts which had nothing to do with what we were discussing in regards to the topic of the thread. And even after asking you to explain what your response had to with what i'd written in relation to OP in the thread, you went on a tangent about what I said in the past and why ten Hag starting him in games means i'm wrong. I guess i'm wrong about DdG aswell, and was wrong about Wan Bissaka and Maguire in the past due to both being regulars under Solskjaer.

I've explained to you why VdB doesn't fit into the current team in my previous post, it doesn't seem like you read it.

Bruno is one of a number of reasons why we can't control games and I've written a lengthy post in the thread started by Rozay, explaining why, from my pov. I would suggest you go read that post and we can then take it from there.

But if your attitude is because Erik ten Hag starts him, he must doing well, then it's pointless to engage with me on a football forum.
 
Adnan said:
Yes i'm the one who said he's lucky we didn't end up signing FdJ, because I expected Eriksen to feature more prominently in the attacking midfield role. And that hypothetical came about after you quoted one of my posts which had nothing to do with what we were discussing in regards to the topic of the thread. And even after asking you to explain what your response had to with what i'd written in relation to OP in the thread, you went on a tangent about what I said in the past and why ten Hag starting him in games means i'm wrong. I guess i'm wrong about DdG aswell, and was wrong about Wan Bissaka and Maguire in the past due to both being regulars under Solskjaer.

I've explained to you why VdB doesn't fit into the current team in my previous post, it doesn't seem like you read it.

Bruno is one of a number of reasons why we can't control games and I've written a lengthy post in the thread started by Rozay, explaining why, from my pov. I would suggest you go read that post and we can then take it from there.

But if your attitude is because Erik ten Hag starts him, he must doing well, then it's pointless to engage with me on a football forum.
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When a manager comes in and picks a player that you don't think is good and makes him captain, then yes it does mean he is doing well. Especially if its a manager that everyone thought would drop him.


I mean he could easily have played Eriksen in an advanced role and having Fred or Casemiro in midfield.
 
romufc said:
When a manager comes in and picks a player that you don't think is good and makes him captain, then yes it does mean he is doing well. Especially if its a manager that everyone thought would drop him.


I mean he could easily have played Eriksen in an advanced role and having Fred or Casemiro in midfield.
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I never said he wasn't good, but you can't expect me to turn a blind eye to his profligacy on the ball. I personally think we needed a different profile of player before we signed him, but I hope he can score and assist consistently because i'm not sure what else he offers that couldn't be upgraded upon by another player via the transfer window or potentially via the youth in the mid to long-term.

Eriksen is the only player we have that could play the connector role, hence he plays in the role after falling to sign de Jong. And even he's got weaknesses off the ball where at times his lack of agility/mobility is quite telling. But until ten Hag addresses the midfield by signing a deep roaming play-maker, then we're reliant on Eriksen, because he's the only player we have imo that has the craft, guile and variety of pass to dictate the game.
 
I’d much prefer the 4-3-3..: we’d control the midfield a lot more aswell. Obviously we’d need upgrades in midfield though to play that. We have eriksen now who can play as a deep lying playmaker. With a 4-2-3-1 I feel like the AM is always to far from the CM that’s why there’s always loads of
Space in there.
 
I think it's more how the formation is applied to individual players than the way it's actually laid out. For example a 433 and 4231 both feature three midfielders, albeit in different roles. The issue with us is that the furthest forward player in our 4231 is a player who can't really function properly as a midfielder. If, for example, we played Eriksen as part of the 3, then we would have a lot more control of the ball, more intelligent, sensible passing and the way the team would appear would be a lot closer to a 433 than what we are accustomed to seeing.
 
ETH might change it over time but it's really about the type of players and using what he's got right now, he quickly put Eriksen deeper as he's needed there and has the quality to carry it out. Long term Bruno could be gone if he can't improve in keeping possession. We have Bruno Rashford McTominay struggling to keep hold of the ball, Fred is just as bad.

I do feel we need a tighter 3 man midfield at times, with better players you can adapt to be more compact and more attacking. Against City I think we should've gone with a 3 man midfield just to help in not making so easy for them but it's very early days for ETH, he learns fast but also has multiple issues to juggle. It's tempting to play Bruno and play balls to Rashford to run onto but that didn't really happen on the day. Perhaps next time he plays a fit Casemiro, Eriksen with a more disciplined role for the third man, depends which players stand out and can evolve in due course.
 
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Fred needs to start as a pressing machine with Eriksen and Casemiro.

Fred makes mistakes and can be outmuscled easily but his pressing is elite and he's a better passer than given credit. Added some goals and assists last season too.

His ball winning can create chances.
 
Teja said:
Numbers don't really matter. City play a 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2 depending on how you want to see it these days. KdB is basically second striker like Bruno now.

Bayern do 4-2-3-1 as well if that matters.
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City doesn't play a 4-2-3-1. They play a 4-3-3. Only one DM in the line up. De Bruyne and Silva are both playing in the #8 but they are so offensive it might be seen as a 8.5
 
SadlerMUFC said:
City doesn't play a 4-2-3-1. They play a 4-3-3. Only one DM in the line up. De Bruyne and Silva are both playing in the #8 but they are so offensive it might be seen as a 8.5
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We say they're really offensive but City as a team keep the ball in their own half a lot.

On paper its a 433 against us on Saturday yet in a first half they completely dominated their keeper made 32 passes. More than any of our outfield players. Their DM generally makes way more passes than any other DM.

There's a team layout on paper and then for me the much more important how does it work in practice.

I don't really care about having a three or a two. More bothered about quality of player and them having a brain.
 
No idea why we can't just play a normal 4-3-3 with Fred, Casemiro and Eriksen in the middle. Especially when Bruno is out.
 
V.O. said:
No idea why we can't just play a normal 4-3-3 with Fred, Casemiro and Eriksen in the middle. Especially when Bruno is out.
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Been asking this question for years regardless of the players.

At this point, it must be a contractual requirement for a manager to only play a 4-2-3-1.
 
Another big away game, another 4-2-3-1, another defeat. Liverpool were always going to play a 4-3-3, why we didn’t match them I have no idea.

It seems every Manchester United manager is allergic to playing a midfield 3, even though all the best teams of the last few few years tend to play with one. It’s absolutely infuriating why our managers refuse to deviate away from the 4-2-3-1.
 
Because of yer skipper.
 
Formations are overrated. It is important, but not as important as having competent players, who doesn’t pass straight to opponents feet every freaking time. We improved with addition of Casimero and Eriksen, but we really should be getting a few more in that and other positions too.
 
Formations are fluid.

Most of the time, the shape differs drastically when in possession, when out of possession, etc.

We should adopt a 3 man midfield though with 2 number 8s ahead of a 6 instead of shoe-horning a #10 in there. I'd be tempted to cash in on Bruno.
 
Reasons are football reasons that eth and all the managers before him understand better than us.

People wanna discuss fair enough but this is the reason
 
A change of our formation would not change our players and their habits. Fred has not the brain to work under pressure, his movement and positioning is not good enough. That would not change in a 4-3-3. Bruno is an attacker, who can be world-class. But he is a liability on defense and in the build up. McT is just not good enough against good teams. That would not change with the formation. A 4-4-2 could be an option, with enough brain on the pitch, a 4-3-3 too, but we do not have these players, who are intelligent and talented enough.

4-4-2 diamond: Casemiro as a 6, Sabitzer and Fred as 8s, Bruno as a10 and Rashford and Weghorst as strikers. Would be an ok line-up, but too much wasted talent on the bench.

4-3-3 def.: Casemiro as a 6, Sabitzer and Fred as 8s, Rashford and Antony on the wings and Weghorst as a Nr. 9, against weaker teams ok, but no not my team at all. We would have a problem to build up.

4-3-3 off.: Casemiro as a 6, Bruno and Fred as 8s, Sancho and Antony/ Garnacho on the wings and Rashford as a Nr. 9 - looks like a counter attacking team, or a pressing team against weaker teams, but the build up against good teams would still be a problem.


The 4-2-3-1 worked well for most parts, so why would someone change it? I could not see any improvement with another formation. We still do not have the players to control games, but we would have a formation, which the players are not used to.
 
Quite simple, Fernandes is unlikely to be disciplined enough to play in a three man midfield as he’s the epitome of a 10 playing in an attacking free role.

To play a 4-3-3 we’d need De Jong and Bellingham in order to have a balanced trio along with Casemiro then bin Fernandes off, with Eriksen and Fred or McTominay we’d have players who whilst not the same level can play in a three as well but no back up for Casemiro.
 
The 4-2-3-1 with Fernandes regularly giving the ball away, but creating the odd chance, with a passionate crowd, works at Old Trafford against weaker teams. Playing away against the likes of Liverpool and city is a different matter. We need to keep possession and control the midfield to avoid being overrun. Simple solution is to bench Fernandes or play him as false 9 for those games and play another midfielder. So go with a midfield of Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred/ Sabitzer.
 
I hate this formation with a passion, not sure why any Club let alone an elite one would adopt it, people want to be entertained, not to watch a chess match.
 
Probably necessity because we never have 3 top class CM's available at the same time

I'd prefer to see something different too
 
Scandi Red said:
Because it's a damn pleasing formation. I love that none of the numbers are reused: It's 4 and then 2 and then a cheeky 3 followed by number 1. Mmm, delicious.

4-3-3 - Yuck!
4-4-2 - Barf!
4-5-1 - What happened to the 2 and 3?!
4-4-1-1 - Are you deliberately trying to piss me off?
4-1-2-1-2 - Brain damage territory.
3-4-3 - What's this shit?
3-5-2 - This is even worse!
4-3-2-1 -This is just overkill. Stop compensating!

4-2-3-1 - Perfection.
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I like the 9-1-1 with no ‘keeper.
 
I'd play 433 with no Bruno.
Fred Case Sabitzer
Sancho Rashford Garnacho.
Or Anthony for balance or something
 
I agree with playing three midfielders away at the big teams, but we don’t have enough goal scorers to play a 433 regularly right now.
 
hobbers said:
I would hope the whole reason ETH is so desperate to bring De Jong in is specifically so we can play with 3 proper midfielders at the Anfields and Etihads.

Frenkie, Casemiro, Eriksen being the obvious one.
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Frenkie would replace Eriksen and be part of 4231 with Bruno still the 10. Frenkie is best as the deepest receiver of the ball, with Casemiro being the DM next to him but not necessarily picking the ball up before him.

Ten Hag pretty much always used 4231. But anyway, formations are fluid. Our build up structure is technically something like 3-1-6. Our defense tends to drop into a 4-4-1-1. It's flexible and doesn't matter all that much.
 
The simple answer is that 4-3-3 is more difficult to get right and asks more of your players.

In a 4-2-3-1, the positioning of the two is what keeps things stable. Off the ball, the holding players need to be in position but the attacking midfielder can hassle and press as required. That means that when the ball is won, the attacking midfielder is usually already in a position to offer an option for a forward pass. From that position they can drop to create a triangle with the 2, push up to support the striker or drift wide to create an overload on a flank.

In a 4-3-3, the solidity of the midfield is dependent on all three midfielders being positionally disciplined when you don't have the ball. The upshot is that, when the ball is won, your options to play forward quickly are limited and you can end getting bogged down in midfield with no clear out-ball. Obviously there are ways to mitigate that and many teams manage perfectly fine, but unless you've got the right personnel the solutions can cause as many problems as they solve.
 
Adnan said:
But that didn't happen and we're seeing the same Bruno Fernandes contribute towards a lack of control and cohesion due to his profligacy on the ball. Maybe you need ten Hag telling you this, but it's pretty clear just by observing the game that he's been a liability on the ball.
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He's also the league leader in chance creation from open play. Vital to our play in transitions - there's a reason why managers like Pep praise our transition play. On top of this, a creative player that puts in a real shift and is available 100% of the time. There is just no way he is going out of the starting XI even if we sign a guy like FdJ and a better keeper.
 
Scandi Red said:
Because it's a damn pleasing formation. I love that none of the numbers are reused: It's 4 and then 2 and then a cheeky 3 followed by number 1. Mmm, delicious.

4-3-3 - Yuck!
4-4-2 - Barf!
4-5-1 - What happened to the 2 and 3?!
4-4-1-1 - Are you deliberately trying to piss me off?
4-1-2-1-2 - Brain damage territory.
3-4-3 - What's this shit?
3-5-2 - This is even worse!
4-3-2-1 -This is just overkill. Stop compensating!

4-2-3-1 - Perfection.
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Because Jose used and found success with it and continued using it with us, then Ole who has used it at Molde ended up using it too. Rangnick tried to change but realised the squad was built foe that and reverted to it. EtH found his success at Ajax using the same formation and was never going to abondon it in the job of his life. Long story short our past 3 permanent managers like the 4 2 3 1 formation.
 
Fitchett said:
The 4-2-3-1 with Fernandes regularly giving the ball away, but creating the odd chance, with a passionate crowd, works at Old Trafford against weaker teams. Playing away against the likes of Liverpool and city is a different matter. We need to keep possession and control the midfield to avoid being overrun. Simple solution is to bench Fernandes or play him as false 9 for those games and play another midfielder. So go with a midfield of Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred/ Sabitzer.
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Deciding to go with only 2 in midfield but also shifting the rest of the forward line around to accommodate Weighorst at no10 was the foundation of our downfall in that match.

Fred, Sabitzer and Casemiro behind Rshford, Weighorst and Bruno on the right might have been the better way to go. We went with a midifeld 2 away to City as well and conceded 6.
 
At least others can see it..

Untill we get three genuine elite Midfielders we won't win big.

Big games will always be a struggle, Man United can be beaten 6,7,5, away from home by City Liverpool but Man United can not beat the same Liverpool or City by more than 2 goals at home.

It shows how unbalanced our team is..
 
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