I agree with this, and I will also include the current players especially the ones who get to start every game, they need to put in a lot of work during the early games so EtH's tactics can work too.
Why is our Transfer Recruitment / Scouting so bad?
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
I agree with this, and I will also include the current players especially the ones who get to start every game, they need to put in a lot of work during the early games so EtH's tactics can work too.
Absolutely. This 100%.
In a nutshell its all on the managers we sign. I we had a competent DOF/CEO straight from when Fergie retired, who had identified a way of playing and stuck to it, een if it had been the opposite of Fergieball, we wouldnt be in this mess now.
Because of this the club is set to fail as no manager can come in and play their 'football' straight away and usually have to change to accommodate the players to disasterous results so far, title wise.
Instead of having a style/culture/philosophy/way, whatever you want to call it, of how to play football and signing managers that implement it, thus buying the players that also implement it, we have a mishmash of styles here.
If as said we had a style of play, then the scouting would be so much better. How many times have we read the scouts have suggested player A only for the manager at the time to want player B and getting him? Then when that manager is sacked for another with a completely different style of play, the players he then inherits, some are unsuitable, etc rinse and repeat.
Because of this the club is set to fail as no manager can come in and play their 'football' straight away and usually have to change to accommodate the players to disasterous results so far, title wise.
Instead of having a style/culture/philosophy/way, whatever you want to call it, of how to play football and signing managers that implement it, thus buying the players that also implement it, we have a mishmash of styles here.
If as said we had a style of play, then the scouting would be so much better. How many times have we read the scouts have suggested player A only for the manager at the time to want player B and getting him? Then when that manager is sacked for another with a completely different style of play, the players he then inherits, some are unsuitable, etc rinse and repeat.
Greenwood played lot of games when he was 17-18, Garnacho also played lot of games as 18 year old, Rashford started lot of games when he was 18.
There are some young players who are too good and will play when they are very young and then there are usual youngsters who play when they are bit older.
My point regards LVG was mainly to do with the fact we had a style of play and were improving within that structure.
Whilst I'm inclined to agree with you to a point with most of what you say, it doesn't take away from my wider point which is our scouting networks and recruitment is generally good.
People have a tendency to look at the senior level transfers only, yet the vast majority of transfers happen in the youth teams.
Yes, this is part of the problem. Our recruitment is very random at times. It is hard to say from the outside how much the club actually listens to our scouts and football personnel. It's here where I say that the problems start at the top where there seems to be no clear distribution of roles and mandate.
People also fail to remember that they have a long list of kids they throw in the first team at 16, everyone gets excited but we never see them again after a short period.
They ran Pedri to the ground and now is always injured, same with Ansu Fati, Akhomach, Ezzalzouli, Nico, Moriba, Puig, El Haddadi, Sergi Samper and so on. Even Sergi Roberto who’s still at the club didn’t have the career the career people thought he would.
All were called gems and supposedly on their way to greatness.
There are very very very few players that can be starters at 16 and stay injury free or still be a regular in the first team a couple years later
Yeah that is also true. Tbf to them this player looks special, always scans the game before making the pass.
But yeah, there are so many young players who played few games and never played again for them.
Not only them to be fair. It’s the same for every club.
Barca is better at selling the story of their Academy (but not better at selling their youth)
If you spend a billion you would think you would get at least one 100mill plus special player just by pure odds even if you are incompetent. Like if a bunch of teenagers chose them odds are that they would get a few right. Heck even the CAF would get at least one right. I think we should just get rid of all scouts and just put a poll up. Im pretty sure the transfers wont be ay any worse
I am not sure if our scouting is bad. We do not know what reports our scouts are producing and what players they recommend to the manager and the board. So, it can be good or bad. We had in the past reports that a lot of good players have been on our radar, we had Martinely on trial, we had reports on Caicedo, Haland, Bellingham, so it is not about scouting.
Our transfer recruiting is bad because since Sir Alex we did not have clear path of what we want to play. Because of that we did not sign similar managers, and therefore we signed players that would work for all of them. So, we bought players that one manager wanted (and even that not the first choice, but second or third), than we sack manager and bring new one that can not use those players.
Also, our fan base want big signings. And our board want to please the fans. They are in reactionary mode. When ole wanted Bellingham, our fan base on social made a jokes about us signing championship players. Caicedo the same.
Also, we don't have system to get the best out of young players. Caicedo had a season in Belgium to adapt, Haland had seasons in the lower league to develop. It is normal, kids are usually not ready for top level football, especially for phisicality, but also don't have tactical experience and also needs to learn to deal with pressure and fans. So, we are not getting the best out of players, especially youngsters even when we buy them like with Hannibal, Pellistri, Amad. We keep them for years playing in the wrong system or not playing at all.
Another issue are injuries. We brought number of young players for Academy in recent years. Like Kambwalla, Emeran, Ennis, Hugill, Parker, Mejia.... All of them spend serious time on injury table with long term injuries. While you can say we are not lucky, it can be said only if it is one or two injuries, not if almost all of the players we bring spend months out of the training ground with injuries, and at the same time you have number of injuries in the first team.
Also, our transfer negotiations are obviously shambolic. Everything is in the press as soon as we ask for a player, even if our scout is on the stands. Prices are up, every offer is in every news. It is ridiculous. It is obvious our management doesn't have any knowledge in the game, and they don't get any respect from the clubs or football people around the world.
Our transfer recruiting is bad because since Sir Alex we did not have clear path of what we want to play. Because of that we did not sign similar managers, and therefore we signed players that would work for all of them. So, we bought players that one manager wanted (and even that not the first choice, but second or third), than we sack manager and bring new one that can not use those players.
Also, our fan base want big signings. And our board want to please the fans. They are in reactionary mode. When ole wanted Bellingham, our fan base on social made a jokes about us signing championship players. Caicedo the same.
Also, we don't have system to get the best out of young players. Caicedo had a season in Belgium to adapt, Haland had seasons in the lower league to develop. It is normal, kids are usually not ready for top level football, especially for phisicality, but also don't have tactical experience and also needs to learn to deal with pressure and fans. So, we are not getting the best out of players, especially youngsters even when we buy them like with Hannibal, Pellistri, Amad. We keep them for years playing in the wrong system or not playing at all.
Another issue are injuries. We brought number of young players for Academy in recent years. Like Kambwalla, Emeran, Ennis, Hugill, Parker, Mejia.... All of them spend serious time on injury table with long term injuries. While you can say we are not lucky, it can be said only if it is one or two injuries, not if almost all of the players we bring spend months out of the training ground with injuries, and at the same time you have number of injuries in the first team.
Also, our transfer negotiations are obviously shambolic. Everything is in the press as soon as we ask for a player, even if our scout is on the stands. Prices are up, every offer is in every news. It is ridiculous. It is obvious our management doesn't have any knowledge in the game, and they don't get any respect from the clubs or football people around the world.
There are more miss than hit last season signings:
Casemiro, hit
Licha, hit
Eriksen, hit
Malacia, 50-50
Antony, miss
Weggy, miss
Sabitzer, miss
dubravka, miss
butland, miss
Granted Weggy and Sabizter were loan but IF ETH had his way, hed sign us Gakpo in January
and I'd refrain to make early judgement on this summer signings however there lies far more important issue, that is most of our signings have ETH's trace in them. Licha, Eriksen, Malacia, Antony, Weggy, and continues this season with Mount and Onana, and not suprising with another of our targets like Ambrabat and that turkish goalie who was linked with move to Ajax in 2020. This should NOT be this way, considering we have DoF right now. Among Arnold, Murtough, and ETH, who do you think should have bigger role in recruitment? for me it should DoF and CEO, with manager having limited input in which positions in squad needed to be improve BUT not micro-managing to the point of providing names.And the bolded part is my issue, it's like people like Murtough letting our manager to do whatever he want so when thing went south, he can wash his hands and point all the blame on manager. Does Murtough not know the role of DoF?
hmm footballing style to cure insomnia?
and i heavily disagreed with another notion, LvG didnt improve our structure at all, remember Marcel Bout? our signings have been trash since he came to the club in 2014 and he was LvG man who was in charge of our Global Scouting from 2015 to 2022 and got kicked out as soon as Rangnick arrived with his famous remark, "HOW COME YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT NKUKU?". I'd say LvG was part of problem as hes already past it and sold many good players with experience of winning titles for low fees when he came here.Well, we do scout players, but we either don't take a chance or fail to convince them of a pathway and plan to them. And when we do sign them, we just don't use them and forget the point of signing young players like this is to develop them.
We had a chance to sign Caicedo, Enzo, Alvarez and we did not sign any of them. We tried to sign Bellingham, but could not convince him.
And the ones we do sign we barely give them a chance.
We had a chance to sign Caicedo, Enzo, Alvarez and we did not sign any of them. We tried to sign Bellingham, but could not convince him.
And the ones we do sign we barely give them a chance.
Who's been the biggest waste of money to date?
I’ll put an early marker down against Mason Mount. We were short a striker, deeper midfielder, right back and goalkeeper based on who we had and form end of last season.
I cant think of any angle where it was worth spending that money on a backup number 10/8. Especially when we already had Fred, Eriksen, Hannibal, DVB etc. I dont buy the ‘he runs round a lot’ stuff and i dont buy the ‘he won a champions league’ - so did Djimi Traore. And I think he’s had one noteworthy season at Chelsea in terms of creative numbers.
Mount? Worse than DVB, Sancho and Maguire?
yes, all considered. your marquee signing hogging a large portion of transfer budget to sit on the bench is the worst waste of money in my opinion. Its a player we never needed and we still need a starting right back midfielder and striker to push on from last year. We are now down a left back and all the teams around us have strengthened.
There was a Postecoglou quote the other day that I thought was interesting on transfers in general.
"There are very, very good footballers out there and if you're prepared to look beyond what everyone else is looking at, you'd be surprised what you find.”
I think in general, United's recent managers have had an obsession with buying "Proven" "Ready Made" players and not taken the risk on the scouting teams proposals. As a club, we far too often look to buy the talent AFTER they move to another club, not before.
There's a litany of stories out there where the club scouts recommended future stars, only for the Mangers to choose more "proven" players. Caicedo being an obvious recent case. Now he's a £100m player.
I think the scouting team get a lot of criticism, for what is essentially recruitment team decisions.
"There are very, very good footballers out there and if you're prepared to look beyond what everyone else is looking at, you'd be surprised what you find.”
I think in general, United's recent managers have had an obsession with buying "Proven" "Ready Made" players and not taken the risk on the scouting teams proposals. As a club, we far too often look to buy the talent AFTER they move to another club, not before.
There's a litany of stories out there where the club scouts recommended future stars, only for the Mangers to choose more "proven" players. Caicedo being an obvious recent case. Now he's a £100m player.
I think the scouting team get a lot of criticism, for what is essentially recruitment team decisions.
The lack of common sense being shown is actually driving me mad now. I don't even think it's on the scouting team so much, we've just consistently had terrible decision makers at the top.
do we even need mount in the first place? 55+5m for a player we didnt really need on the back of horrid season and with only 1 year left in his contract. even the likes of Antony, Sancho, Maguire all have had excuse why we spunked big money on them.
That's because we think we're God's club. Shopping at the corner shop is beneath the super-awesome behemoth that we clearly are
I think Brighton for example are happy enough taking players from less well known and highly thought of leagues and figure them into first team contention. Looking at their past several years they've signed players from the Paraguay (Enciso), Argentine, Belgium, Czech, Japanese, Polish, Norwegian, Danish and Ecuadorian leagues. We havent signed so many from these not as highly thought of leagues, certainly some occasional ones. Like Pellistri from Uraguay is a good example.
But I think when Brighton sign these players the idea is that within a year they're on the pitch for the first team as a starter or sub. Whereas we send them to our youth and reserve teams, then out for loan and then who knows. Theres no real plan or timeframe to get them into the team. And the truth is that it doesnt work all the time even for Brighton. Looks like they've gone for players from the Polish league several times over the years and those ones havent had the success you think of with Brighton's transfers. But it only takes 3 or 4 of the 15 or whatever projects to become top premier league talents to make it worthwhile.
Then theres Moises Caicedo. We were heavily linked before he went to Brighton. The story is that we didnt know who really represented him. The same story with Tevez and Mascherano when they initially went to West Ham if I'm not mistaken. And I seem to recall confusion over the agent/3 agents appearing claiming to reperesent Ander Herrera too. Or someone like that.
Well West Ham sorted it and came out ahead with the argentines, and Brighton figured it out with Caicedo. If they can we could have. Maybe we did sort it out with Ander? Again unless im confusing that with a different transfer.
But I think when Brighton sign these players the idea is that within a year they're on the pitch for the first team as a starter or sub. Whereas we send them to our youth and reserve teams, then out for loan and then who knows. Theres no real plan or timeframe to get them into the team. And the truth is that it doesnt work all the time even for Brighton. Looks like they've gone for players from the Polish league several times over the years and those ones havent had the success you think of with Brighton's transfers. But it only takes 3 or 4 of the 15 or whatever projects to become top premier league talents to make it worthwhile.
Then theres Moises Caicedo. We were heavily linked before he went to Brighton. The story is that we didnt know who really represented him. The same story with Tevez and Mascherano when they initially went to West Ham if I'm not mistaken. And I seem to recall confusion over the agent/3 agents appearing claiming to reperesent Ander Herrera too. Or someone like that.
Well West Ham sorted it and came out ahead with the argentines, and Brighton figured it out with Caicedo. If they can we could have. Maybe we did sort it out with Ander? Again unless im confusing that with a different transfer.
There are more miss than hit last season signings:
Casemiro, hit
Licha, hit
Eriksen, hit
Malacia, 50-50
Antony, miss
Weggy, miss
Sabitzer, miss
dubravka, miss
butland, miss
Granted Weggy and Sabizter were loan but IF ETH had his way, hed sign us Gakpo in January
And the bolded part is my issue, it's like people like Murtough letting our manager to do whatever he want so when thing went south, he can wash his hands and point all the blame on manager. Does Murtough not know the role of DoF?
hmm footballing style to cure insomnia?
I dont usually do this but I stopped reading when I saw you using Dubravka and Butland as examples of failures. I have nothing more to add.
These 2 cost us 4m in loan fees while playing ZERO minutes in PL (in Butland's case zero minutes in any comp). Why bothered to get them when we had Heaton?
Years and years of bad choices makes correcting the problem very expensive and time consuming.
Any manager coming in needed to build a squad to get back into the CL.
Then build a second squad to challenge for trophies*
Spending £100-150 million in the Prem just keeps you at the same level, as everyone around you is doing the same.
*The start of where we are at currently with EtH.
Any manager coming in needed to build a squad to get back into the CL.
Then build a second squad to challenge for trophies*
Spending £100-150 million in the Prem just keeps you at the same level, as everyone around you is doing the same.
*The start of where we are at currently with EtH.
Ahhh, the old Nkunku myth.There are more miss than hit last season signings:
Casemiro, hit
Licha, hit
Eriksen, hit
Malacia, 50-50
Antony, miss
Weggy, miss
Sabitzer, miss
dubravka, miss
butland, miss
Granted Weggy and Sabizter were loan but IF ETH had his way, hed sign us Gakpo in January
And the bolded part is my issue, it's like people like Murtough letting our manager to do whatever he want so when thing went south, he can wash his hands and point all the blame on manager. Does Murtough not know the role of DoF?
hmm footballing style to cure insomnia?
The scouts knew about Nkunku, they just weren't actively scouting him as he wasn't on the list of their targets, that's massively different from the myth that has manifested, which is that the scouts knew nothing about him.
Butland and Dubravka were signings to fill a hole of backup GK, same as Heaton, it's harsh to claim they are failures!
For me, the perfect setup is the DoF, scouting team and manager making joint decisions based on what the manager wants and what style of football is wanting to be played. That's pretty much how it works at Arsenal and it appears to be reaping dividends.
Because those players are special talents above anything United has. Greenwood was probably the closest talent wise. Rashford was given chances early and has done alright.
Barcelona just has an amazing academy that no club can really compete with.
On top of that, we have no established system / style of play. It's a lot easier to give youth a chance when they can be given a clearly defined role in the team, and they have been developed in that role from a young age in the youth set up.
Has to be Sancho and Maguire, in recent times anyway. Antony doing his best to join that list as well. Martial, just for his obscene wages alone.
i personally feel like theres a recency bias over Maguire - he was overpriced no question but at the time we signed him weren’t our cb options lindelof, bailly, jones and rojo?
Our recruitment and scouting department is the worst in all the top 5 leagues in Europe.
This was the same scouting system that analysed a staggering 800 right full backs in Europe but then settled for Aaron Wan-Bissaka.
They watched Hakimi, Pavard, Araujo, Cancelo, etc but settled for the Crystal Palace spider legs.
If that doesn't tell you anything, nothing else would.
I get what you are saying. But since we are spending huge amount of money on players transfers and players wages anyway, why can’t we just save part of the huge amount and invest in scouting and youth development instead?
Even we can’t compete with Barca there, I am sure we can still be bold and spend more on unproven young talent like Real Madrid (on Vinicius Junior, Rodrygo etc), or like Dortmund or something.
The same Wan Bissaka who is still out number one right back? Who's statistics and performances have been very good since getting back into the team?
I don't get this arguement, we have poor scouts because we didn't buy players that other teams brought.
A player can only.go to one club at any one time, why are Arsenals scouts not worse than ours, as they didn't sign any of those aforementioned players, and have been relatively weak in the right full back department?
On the bolded part, I think a lot of that is due to the pressure from the fans & sponsors for immediate results, as well as the potential financial hits from missing Europe. No one is particularly willing to take the time and restructure properly whilst our nearest competitors take titles and trophies year after year. This is one area where I think sometimes as fans we don't help. We (rightly) want the club to be run much better than it has been, but are we willing to take the cost and pain of changing to that? It seems not since every transfer window we are complaining about the money not getting spent - so we spend it in the wrong areas and the cycle continues.
This is one of the key benefits I am hoping we can get from a potential sale. Whoever comes in takes the time to review, restructure and implement a much more modern approach to our scouting, development and negotiations, over simply throwing money at things. I worry though that whomsoever does win will be under such immediate pressure (not least from supporters of the opposite camp) for results and may not be able to do it. Of course there is the possibility to throw money and restructure at the same time, but that would take even longer assuming we are playing by the FFP rules.
Hmmm....Mount started both games and probably would've started on Saturday against Forest had it not been for his injury. Hardly a backup player. I think the club see him as a starter hence the price tag and contract.
i know. Midfield looks terrific with him shoehorned in there….
Yeah I dream of the day we see that setup at this club,when you have that in place it means the club aren't constantly rebuilding because of different manager styles which has happened too often
How is this a myth? and why werent we actively scouting him considering he was one of brightest young talents in BL? And im not talking about scouts go to matches, i'm talking about LvG man who was in charge of our global scouting back in 2015-2022.
So these 2 were filling a position that was already filled? whats the point then? 4m down the drain when the club was already skint. You might have a case if we loaned a young potential back up goalie for DDG deputy instead of 2 has been goalies.
what do you mean by joint decision? perhaps you can make it clearer? ive explained what i consider as best option where manager should only provide list of positions need to be improved, but let the names decided by DoF.
Nkunku wasn't on the list of targets, so we weren't actively scouting him, that doesn't mean the scouts didn't know about him, which is the myth that has perpetuated. He wasn't a player that the scouts deemed a fit for the team.
To clarify the last point, a sporting director/DoF draws up a list of targets alongside the manager and scouting team based on the principles of the team and style of play. Targets are then joint decisions and should then slot into the team due to this process.
This is how it worked under Cortese at Southampton, similar to how it works at Brighton, Newcastle and Arsenal.
I don't buy into this notion that we have a poor scouting network. The reality is that we have a recruitment issue, not a scouting issue. One of the examples this season was Zion Suzuki. Although the player elected not to join us, he was ultimately selected based on the scouts' recommendation. Let's not forget that our scouts have identified players like Moisés Caicedo, Julián Álvarez, Tchouaméni, etc., all before they made a big move. And people still choose to crash it on the scouting network. The fundamental issue lies with the recruitment department and the DOF. Who both seems to be deciding not to listen to any of the scouting suggestions.
"One thing that surprised Solskjaer was the perceived reluctance to scout players from the top ten clubs in Europe. While United has signed players like Raphael Varane, whose availability was brought to United's attention by agents with extensive reports, sources indicate that there has been hesitance from higher-ups to actively gather significant information about potential targets at clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich. It is believed that Woodward preferred scouts to focus on emerging talents at other clubs."
Scouts do what they’re told they just go and scout wherever they like, the strategic planning is approved by those above. This was from Laurie Whitwell article.
https://theathletic.com/3127282/2022/02/15/john-murtough-man-tasked-trying-fix-manchester-united
"One thing that surprised Solskjaer was the perceived reluctance to scout players from the top ten clubs in Europe. While United has signed players like Raphael Varane, whose availability was brought to United's attention by agents with extensive reports, sources indicate that there has been hesitance from higher-ups to actively gather significant information about potential targets at clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich. It is believed that Woodward preferred scouts to focus on emerging talents at other clubs."
Scouts do what they’re told they just go and scout wherever they like, the strategic planning is approved by those above. This was from Laurie Whitwell article.
https://theathletic.com/3127282/2022/02/15/john-murtough-man-tasked-trying-fix-manchester-united
I think it's fair to say that our scouting/recruitment team really isn't up to scratch when ETH has came in and essentially bought all of his old talent that he's had/worked with before at previous clubs. Literally a large majority of his signings/players we're linked with are players that he has coached before..
Onana, Licha, Antony, Malacia, Weghorst, Mason Mount (Played at Vitesse on loan in 2018)
Linked with:
Gravenberch (Coached him at Ajax)
Amrabat (Coached him at Utrecht)
Jurrien Timber (Coached him at Ajax)
I mean out ETH's 13 signings at the club, 6 of them are players he's previously worked with or seen with his own eyes how they play. We could even make that 7 by the end of the window if we sign Gravenberch or Amrabat. It is literal proof that our scouting team are sub-par and ETH has no choice but to go for players that he knows can perform.
Onana, Licha, Antony, Malacia, Weghorst, Mason Mount (Played at Vitesse on loan in 2018)
Linked with:
Gravenberch (Coached him at Ajax)
Amrabat (Coached him at Utrecht)
Jurrien Timber (Coached him at Ajax)
I mean out ETH's 13 signings at the club, 6 of them are players he's previously worked with or seen with his own eyes how they play. We could even make that 7 by the end of the window if we sign Gravenberch or Amrabat. It is literal proof that our scouting team are sub-par and ETH has no choice but to go for players that he knows can perform.