Yes I just checked the website
Why is everyone saying Messi is "officially" the greatest player of all time?
- Thread starter padzilla
- Start date
There has to be a statistic and algorithm used to determine who is actually the best.
Luckily I have a time machine, but using it to settle football debates seems pointless
Seems to be Messi fans desperately need to tell the rest of the world Messi is the GOAT.
Whereas the rest of the world know he isn’t.
Whereas the rest of the world know he isn’t.
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People want their own opinion to be final, everybody lives in their own bubble of self proclaimed importance.
Bobby Orr led the league in scoring as a defenseman.
His plus/minus record is + 128 on a season.
He killed penalties by himself.
At times he was hardly trying as to not embarrass teams
Gretzky was incredible but his Era was the high scoring 80s and 90s.
You could argue Orr was better although his career was so short.
Majority of football fans think Messi is the GOAT..
United fans in this forum who does not have any stake if he's considered GOAT or not is a proof of that..
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It's all subjective. What heights would Pele, Maradona, Platini, Cruyff, Best etc have scaled if they had the protection from referees that modern day players enjoy?
Some of the tackles from back in the day would get you arrested now.
Some of the tackles from back in the day would get you arrested now.
Not sure that is true at all.
There's millions and millions of football fans. You can't just count people your age who post on forums.
When you're a nobody you'd like to be a part of something special to feel good about yourself.
It's why people idolize other people that have large followings.
And in this case, it's to be part of peak football enjoyment so you can tell your grandsons "I watched Messi every week when I was your age". So they want him to be the GOAT. Most of them didn't get to experience Maradona and Pele.
It's why people idolize other people that have large followings.
And in this case, it's to be part of peak football enjoyment so you can tell your grandsons "I watched Messi every week when I was your age". So they want him to be the GOAT. Most of them didn't get to experience Maradona and Pele.
I don't know how you can argue it, to be honest.
Even if football ended in 2012 I'd still say he's comfortably the greatest ever. I respect what Maradona and Pelé achieved, but today's football is played on a way higher level compared to several decades ago. That's why I'd probably put Ronaldo as the 2nd greatest of all time even on ability, not just career achievements, even though I've disliked him since 2009 and I'm of the opinion that around 2014/15 he just became an efficiency monster and a goal machine. He somewhat lost his magic after that knee injury.
I don't see the need for comparisons, since Messi outdid everyone (including greats of the past) even in the most advanced era of the game.
Even if football ended in 2012 I'd still say he's comfortably the greatest ever. I respect what Maradona and Pelé achieved, but today's football is played on a way higher level compared to several decades ago. That's why I'd probably put Ronaldo as the 2nd greatest of all time even on ability, not just career achievements, even though I've disliked him since 2009 and I'm of the opinion that around 2014/15 he just became an efficiency monster and a goal machine. He somewhat lost his magic after that knee injury.
I don't see the need for comparisons, since Messi outdid everyone (including greats of the past) even in the most advanced era of the game.
I also don't think many people care and hopefully, most will understand that you can't really make definitive claims to something like this. I think it is generally a cool discussion because people get to know some greats of the past as well in the process but any conclusion is pretty much impossible
Because he just won the World Cup and many people said if he did he'd be the best ever.
When everything quietens down and it's not the most recent history in minds, people will rationalise careers of great players and see that both Pele and Maradona were better in their times and that Messi, while an incredible player, isn't the GOAT, albeit he's in the top 3.
The world cup is the pinnacle of the sport. Pele has 3. No doubt Pele is the GOAT.
It's decades behind club football
It is probably the biggest stage, but not the pinnacle of the sport. Most PL / CL last 16 teams would've had a chance to win the WC since they are tactially better than almost every national side.
I guarantee Messi would look like a total chump if you took his teammates away and made him play 1v11 against Barrow Town.
There were many great players who played in the 80s and 90s. Why wasn't anyone close to Gretzky in stats then in that same time period?
One could argue that Ray Borque had a better career then Orr. However compared to Gretzky it's not even close.
Bobby Orr: G: 270 A:645 P:915
Ray Borque: G:410 A: 1,169 P:1,579
Wayne Gretzky G:894 A:1,963 P:2,857
Hart Trophies(NHL MVP) Orr: 3 Gretzky:9
Stanley Cups: Orr:2 Gretzky:4
Gretzky has more assists than any player has goals and assists combined. That's dominant.
Lastly I'm not a Gretzky fan. I'm A Mario Lemieux fan. However it's hard to dispute that Wayne was the GOAT.
Messi is pretty clearly the best player of the 21st century. Anything further than that is hard to quantify in any meaningful way.
The NHL is very competitive; you only need look at the list of Stanley Cup winners, particularly over the period of Gretzky’s senior career (late 70s to late 90s) to see that no team has ever really dominated over a significant period, and the salary cap and draft system ensure no single team can become too strong.
I guess he ‘officially’ ended the debate with Ronaldo, nobody can rationally put forward a strong argument that Ronaldo was a better football than Messi now without showing considerable bias. Since the past 10 years the debate has been about those two players, it’s nice that it’s fading away and ending and we can all relax.
However, anyone with football history knowledge knows how great Pele was, that’s the next debate for 20 years (already happening in another thread), Messi vs Pele. Unlike Messi vs Ronaldo where Messi outperformed Ronaldo in the same era with much the same parameters (played in the same league for 9 years), Pele vs Messi has far too many external factors to give a definitive answer. So it’s really an unanswerable question - the best kind of internet question - which means the debate can go on forever.
However, anyone with football history knowledge knows how great Pele was, that’s the next debate for 20 years (already happening in another thread), Messi vs Pele. Unlike Messi vs Ronaldo where Messi outperformed Ronaldo in the same era with much the same parameters (played in the same league for 9 years), Pele vs Messi has far too many external factors to give a definitive answer. So it’s really an unanswerable question - the best kind of internet question - which means the debate can go on forever.
Because you say so?
When both coincided in Spain they are pretty much even, believe it or not, with Ronaldo scoring more and Messi with more G+A, with Messi scoring and G+A more in La Liga and Ronaldo scoring and G+A more in the Champions League.
The difference between them is minimal, especially when you take in consideration Argentina is stronger on average than Portugal and that Ronaldo started in Sporting while Messi started in a CL winning Barça side.
Going to decimals and all that just to differenciate them shows how same they are.
They are equally efficient and that's why I say they are equal, they just have different styles of play.
At which point their grandkids will tell them that Messi is overrated, wouldn't cut it in the modern game, and that the current FM regen has already eclipsed everyone before him.
Maradona was better.
Because ‘great’ can be determined without ever watching a game of football. Big difference between ‘greatest’ player and ‘best’ player. Greatness, Balon D’ors and the like are pretty much determined by trophies and contributions to said trophies. Even on a more micro level, MOTM awards get handed out last minute based on a change in the outcome of a match.
In short, Messi has always been ‘better’ than Ronaldo to anyone with 5 minutes to spare and a pair of working eyes IMO - however, Ronaldo’s ‘accomplishments’ meant that he dragged Messi into a 15 year battle to be established as the ‘greatest’. Which IMO, was Ronaldo’s greatest trick of them all.
In short, Messi has always been ‘better’ than Ronaldo to anyone with 5 minutes to spare and a pair of working eyes IMO - however, Ronaldo’s ‘accomplishments’ meant that he dragged Messi into a 15 year battle to be established as the ‘greatest’. Which IMO, was Ronaldo’s greatest trick of them all.
When they shared pitch it was evident who the better player was.
It's decades behind club football
It is probably the biggest stage, but not the pinnacle of the sport. Most PL / CL last 16 teams would've had a chance to win the WC since they are tactially better than almost every national side.
It is now.
It wasn't when Pele was winning them.
Term should be 'undisputed'.
He was crowned with a black mosquito net, we all saw it.
That's only half the argument though. Yes, tackles and aggression in general were far worse, but so were the defenders' strength, pace, discipline, tactical prowess, knowledge of the opponent and so on. My point is that "the protection from referees" is not the only aspect of the game that has changed significantly over the decades, and thus, only mentioning that aspect is rather disingenuous.
Barcelona won 6 leagues to Real Madrid’s 2 leagues. Barca won 5 Copa del Rey’s to Ronaldo’s 2. Messi scored 50 goals in a season. Messi had more man of the match awards. Messi had a higher average rating. Messi won La Liga Player of the Year 5 times, Ronaldo won it once.
Messi won La Liga best player award 7 times, Ronaldo once, Griezman once between 2009-18..
Also, Barca won Copa Del Rey 7 times between 2009-18.. In addition, Messi won Pichichi 5 times vs Ronaldo with 3 within the same time-frame..
Are you kidding?
How can they be equal when Messi won 7 La Liga best player awards vs mighty Ronaldo with 1, 5 Pichichis vs Ronaldo with 3?
How can they be equal when Messi won all these while running the game as a GOAT level playmaker + dribbler?
Have you ever compared type of assists Messi/Modric/Xavi/Zidane make with Ronaldo's?
Why are you conveniently ignoring the fact that Ronaldo played under some of the greatest managers ever like SAF, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Allegri, Zidane etc. while Messi only played under one top-class manager, Guardiola?
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi is a GOAT level playmaker (4 times IFFHS world's best playmaker award), a record+ dribbler while Ronaldo is none of that (not even a top-100 player in terms of technique?
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi has more Golden Shoes than Ronaldo, the area where Ronaldo is supposed to be the greatest (goal-scoring)? or that Messi has more Ballon D'ors and is on the way for an 8th..
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi won every single tournament he participated in for Argentina and was chosen as the best player in every single one of them (Olympics, Copa twice, WC twice, U-20 WC) while Ronaldo "0" with 0 knock-out goals+assists in 5 WCs?
Yeah, to me they look pretty similar
..Are you by any chance form Portugal? Yeah, just checked, not surprised..
while Ronaldo fanboy base significantly shrank in the last 6 months with most not even debating if he is better than Messi anymore, it seems we still have some left choosing to live in their own bubble..
Are you kidding?
How can they be equal when Messi won 7 La Liga best player awards vs mighty Ronaldo with 1, 5 Pichichis vs Ronaldo with 3?
How can they be equal when Messi won all these while running the game as a GOAT level playmaker + dribbler?
Have you ever compared type of assists Messi/Modric/Xavi/Zidane make with Ronaldo's?
Why are you conveniently ignoring the fact that Ronaldo played under some of the greatest managers ever like SAF, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Allegri, Zidane etc. while Messi only played under one top-class manager, Guardiola?
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi is a GOAT level playmaker (4 times IFFHS world's best playmaker award), a record+ dribbler while Ronaldo is none of that (not even a top-100 player in terms of technique?
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi has more Golden Shoes than Ronaldo, the area where Ronaldo is supposed to be the greatest (goal-scoring)? or that Messi has more Ballon D'ors and is on the way for an 8th..
Why are you conveniently ignoring that Messi won every single tournament he participated in for Argentina and was chosen as the best player in every single one of them (Olympics, Copa twice, WC twice, U-20 WC) while Ronaldo "0" with 0 knock-out goals+assists in 5 WCs?
Yeah, to me they look pretty similar
Are you by any chance form Portugal? Yeah, just checked, not surprised..
while Ronaldo fanboy base significantly shrank in the last 6 months with most not even debating if he is better than Messi anymore, it seems we still have some left choosing to live in their own bubble..
Interestingly you forgot to compute the Champions League in that comparison, and what I said stands correct regarding their goal contributions.
I don't need to list the awards Ronaldo won or his achievements or anything, they are known but you ignore them so there is no point.
Dribbling, playmaking, the only things that matters, football starts and ends in this, I know.
I am just comparing the years Ronaldo is in the league, when they were directly competing. Ronaldo wasn’t in the league for two of the Copa del Reys and for one of the La Liga best player awards.
Agreed. But I also think that you can't really argue the fact that football is played on a way higher level today than back then so even the international football of the 60's, 70's & 80's don't come close to the quality of today's club football, especially the latter stages of the CL or a match between two of the better PL sides.