According to my mexican coworker, the mexican league pays a lot more than other central/south american leagues, so clubs import a lot of those players, who all speak the language, so mexican players dont get as much playing time and development.
Why does Mexico not have a stronger NT?
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Mexico is just a rampantly corrupt country. They have always punched well below their weight in every respect because it’s just a systemic shambles over there. In terms of natural resources they are the fifth richest country in the world. I say this as someone who has lived in Mexico and is marrying a Mexican. It’s a beautiful country, with a rich culture. Just corrupt as feck. Just came back from a month in Ciudad de México, and I didn’t want to leave. Oh and the women are fecking gorgeous in the City.
The league is run by the club owners. There’s No high level youth development, high wages league with no cap on foreign players. Good Mexican players stay in Mexico instead of looking for a challenge in Europe. Lack of good coaches. Many reasons
They're in their comfort zone too much.
Not enough of them go and play in europe compared to many of their respective nations from the continent they play in. Go through most of their World cup squads and over half will play for Mexican clubs so that has its limitations on world stage.
Think this is just a poor squad though especially with the decline of their forwards. You go back a decade and likes of Hernandez and Carlos Vela were pretty good in europe so that formed the base but now they have very little in the final third.
They tend to be a bit tigger happy with managers aswell, quite liked what Osorio was doing with them at 2018 world cup but can't remember how long he lasted after that tournament.
Not enough of them go and play in europe compared to many of their respective nations from the continent they play in. Go through most of their World cup squads and over half will play for Mexican clubs so that has its limitations on world stage.
Think this is just a poor squad though especially with the decline of their forwards. You go back a decade and likes of Hernandez and Carlos Vela were pretty good in europe so that formed the base but now they have very little in the final third.
They tend to be a bit tigger happy with managers aswell, quite liked what Osorio was doing with them at 2018 world cup but can't remember how long he lasted after that tournament.
It feels like they've always lacked quality. So the population and enthusiasm isn't translating to producing the talent the country should be capable of. It's not as if these lads are underperforming, they're playing about how you would expect looking at their lineup and where the players are in the club game. Must be something in the pathway for young talent.
But who are these good Mexican players that stay in Mexico? Their NT is still shit regardless of playing in Mexico or Europe.
That's my point. They don't ever develop. Only the ones that make the hop over to Europe and stay there become anything of note.
Because the players are no good. Next question
I was thinking this. Maybe it’s misplaced but you feel like for such a large country in a football obsessed continent they should be producing quality players as regularly as Argentina and Brazil, and yet they are often incredibly average.
Just looking at the squad and Jesus Gallardo sticks out. 80 caps for Mexico since 2016 and 28 now. Moved to Monterrey in 2018 when that was optimum time to move to europe given he started all four games at that year's world cup. Sure plenty of mid table european clubs would've been happy to give him a go but I assume a much higher wage meant he stayed home.
They just have poor forward options now.
At that World cup they had front three of Vela, Hernandez, Lozano. Raul Jimenez, Peralta and Corona were all subs so miles ahead of the limited options now. Just get that in cycles with national teams.
Drug cartels recruiting and killing young men before they have a chance to choose what they want to do with their life?
Clearly the main issue continues to be inefficient production line, with not enough Mexican players in their primes playing regular football (or at all) in top (or even 2nd tier) European leagues, and not enough young Mexican players getting regular minutes in Liga MX. That's in sharp contrast to more and more US players / young players moving to Europe and getting regular first team action week in week out int the best leagues. Things have come to a head and this is the least talented group of Mexican players since the 70s I'd say. They were toothless in many of their qualifying matches, before we get to this tournament itself. Throw in a poor, badly performing manager, and it's not a recipe for success.
To a much lesser extent, the SUM contract requiring to them to play a minimum of 5 friendlies per year in the US, while being a big success financially, has not been great in terms of football development. Obviously friendlies are far from the be all and end all, but more friendlies against 2nd tier European teams let alone European heavyweights in Europe, would be more beneficial than continually playing the likes of Ecuador (not that they're a weak team) or Paraguay in the US. Of course Mexico continue to be a big draw in the US (it could be argued that Mexican fans living in the US are the most devoted and passionate fans in international football bar none), for example attracting a crowd of 51,000 (I think) for friendly against Paraguay in August in a non-FIFA window.
Some Mexican fans I know are hopeful than an early exit would force major changes of attitude and direction at the FMF, but I'm not overly optimistic there. They continue to be very successful at the business side (largely due to that huge and loyal US fanbase), despite failing at the football development side, and ultimately that's what they care about.
To a much lesser extent, the SUM contract requiring to them to play a minimum of 5 friendlies per year in the US, while being a big success financially, has not been great in terms of football development. Obviously friendlies are far from the be all and end all, but more friendlies against 2nd tier European teams let alone European heavyweights in Europe, would be more beneficial than continually playing the likes of Ecuador (not that they're a weak team) or Paraguay in the US. Of course Mexico continue to be a big draw in the US (it could be argued that Mexican fans living in the US are the most devoted and passionate fans in international football bar none), for example attracting a crowd of 51,000 (I think) for friendly against Paraguay in August in a non-FIFA window.
Some Mexican fans I know are hopeful than an early exit would force major changes of attitude and direction at the FMF, but I'm not overly optimistic there. They continue to be very successful at the business side (largely due to that huge and loyal US fanbase), despite failing at the football development side, and ultimately that's what they care about.
They do well at youth tournaments sometimes (at the Olympics and U-20?) and you say play a nice high tempo, but they seem to no longer create good enough attackers. Their major players over the last 20 years seem to have all been decent wingers and creative central defensive players.
I disagree that Marquez would have struggled in the Prem, but because I agree with your larger point. He was better when he was a DM or a CB in a 3 man backline and in the Prem he would have struggled even more in a traditional CB pairing.
Very close to qualifying but ultimately not good enough. Still, Mexico feels like a sleeping giant. Surely they can find a way to utilize that 130M population!
I think Mexico is in the same bracket as Denmark and Japan. Generally good players, but clearly not top level.
They lack that final bit of quality, but you should pretty much always consider them top 15 in the world regardless of what the FIFA ranking says.
The only club that really prides itself of youth players is Chivas and even the corruption and mismanagement is crazy a lot of the talent doesn’t reach their potential. Clubs like America, Monterey, Pachuca bring players through too but not at the standard of before. Now these players get into the Liga MX under developed and then with Hondurans and El Salvadorans and other Central American talent coming in cheaper they don’t get to play. The ones that do develop get sold to the MLS or Europe quick and it works for some but others leave and don’t get proper playing time and development stunts. Look at the 2012 Olympics team. Talents like Diego Reyes, Marco Fabian, Jorge Enriquez and Raul Jimenez never reached the heights expected, Enriquez especially, he looked like a beast in the making. So this is a problem the corrupt Mexican FA and the clubs need to sort. There needs to be a overhaul.
Maybe lack of competition outside of the World Cup is an issue?
Mexico and US always qualify with 1 or 2 others
I've always thought they'd be better off combining North and South American qualification
The Aussies left Oceania for similar reasons
Mexico and US always qualify with 1 or 2 others
I've always thought they'd be better off combining North and South American qualification
The Aussies left Oceania for similar reasons
Bad genetics.
Is chicharito still relevant or has he retired from international football? Seems like they could have done with his experience against Poland at least
Go on, expand on that ridiculous bait of a post.
As an American of Mexican descent I'd say it comes down to the mentality of the Mexican player first and foremost, a lot of players would rather stay in Mexico and earn decent wages in a country they know than go abroad to test themselves against the best players in the world, we even saw it with guys like Vela and Gio who were talented but lacked the desire and discipline to become top players. It's amazing that a country that large and that football mad has only had one world class player in its entire history, absolutely embarrassing.
There's also a lot of corruption in the grass root level where a lot players get lost in the system for reasons like poverty, lack of support from the FA and nepotism. The Mexican league and FA are both extremely corrupt and tied to Televisa, the largest TV station in Mexico and owners of Club America so a lot of decisions are geared towards pleasing that entity, like taking an out of form Jimenez over the younger in form Gimenez who's having a good season in Feyenoord.
There's also a lot of corruption in the grass root level where a lot players get lost in the system for reasons like poverty, lack of support from the FA and nepotism. The Mexican league and FA are both extremely corrupt and tied to Televisa, the largest TV station in Mexico and owners of Club America so a lot of decisions are geared towards pleasing that entity, like taking an out of form Jimenez over the younger in form Gimenez who's having a good season in Feyenoord.
I don't think corruption explains it or is even a large part. We see talent come through many hurdles in South America. Perhaps more to do with history and influences of other sports from their neighbours. USA and South America have a huge identity and direction, maybe Mexico are caught in-between and somewhat insular.
Aztecs, Mayans and all the precolombinian cultures from mexico were really short, and they mostly mixed with the initial incomings from spaniards who were mostly criminals and low class people, so the mix is pretty bad. It's the same problem we have in Chile.
Argentina, Uruguay and Brasil have different genetics since Brasil has more portuguese genetics obviously, and Argentina and Uruguay have lots of Italian genetics. In fact most of the Argentinian NTs over the years are Italians.
Same question applies for Japan or South Korea or even the USA. All those countries have countless good technical players and the last decade they got better by playing in the European leagues but they are all made in "schools" there is no real creativity or spark. It is all trained by coaching while football is all about expressing yourself on the pitch. They're every bit as good technically than the players in Europe but they never learned that football is art.
They need the spirit of Jorge Campos in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Campos
At the 1999 New Year's Cup in Hong Kong, in which Mexico was invited as well as Egypt and Bulgaria, Campos' father was kidnapped in Mexico and Campos returned to Mexico to attend to the matter. - I choose to read this as: Campos returned to Mexico to go on a killing spree to free his father beforer returning to play ball.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Campos
At the 1999 New Year's Cup in Hong Kong, in which Mexico was invited as well as Egypt and Bulgaria, Campos' father was kidnapped in Mexico and Campos returned to Mexico to attend to the matter. - I choose to read this as: Campos returned to Mexico to go on a killing spree to free his father beforer returning to play ball.
Not sure that criminal factor (if true, I know nothing about that) would impact things much. English sports fans sometimes joke that Australians are often descended from criminals as it was once essentially a prison colony and Australia are really good at sport.Mind you, a disproportianate number of their better footballers have been of Croatian descent which came at a later time.
I do believe that genetics can play a part in sporting success for a country as well as culture, finance, diet and a few other reasons. It's in-part why you get a lot of champions in certain sports from specific countries/regions with the same kind of genetic makeup.
As an example people with long arms to height/weight ratio are at a disadvantage in weightlifting as they have to move the weight further so technically have to be stronger just to lift the same weight as their competitors with shorter arms. Some countries/areas/ethnicities have. on average, a greater arm to height ratio than others. Of course, not everyone from a certain country fits neatly into a box, but there's trends, and some participants may even be able to overcome genetic disadvantages.
Apparently 62.5% of Argentinians are of Italian descent in some form or other so it's not surprising they would have made up a majority of their teams. Still, I never thought about it before. Just thinking of many of their most prominent players over the years, many have last names that you'd associate with Italy.
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The Mexican league pays a lot more in wages and transfers than most leagues in america. I'd say in average more than any league, besides the obvious franchise players in the MLS and the Brazilian league.
So players don't need to go abroad to get great contracts, like the Colombian, Uruguayan, Argentinian players. Actually most players that go to Europe actually earn less than what they made in the Mexican league.
For the same reason the league is plagued with South Americans in key positions such as center backs, wingers and strikers. Most clubs dont even have academies, or at least serious academies, so very few exciting players debut each year.
So players don't need to go abroad to get great contracts, like the Colombian, Uruguayan, Argentinian players. Actually most players that go to Europe actually earn less than what they made in the Mexican league.
For the same reason the league is plagued with South Americans in key positions such as center backs, wingers and strikers. Most clubs dont even have academies, or at least serious academies, so very few exciting players debut each year.
In contrast to Mexico, the USA starting line-up against Iran didn’t include a single player at a club in the MLS right, with all the players at clubs in top European leagues?
That’s a major reason why there are major concerns from a Mexican perspective that the USA could pull (further) away from them.
One of the few Liga MX clubs that has a good track record of producing / developing / improving talented Mexican players in recent times, has been the recently crowned Apertura champions Pachuca (who my wife and her family support).
That’s a major reason why there are major concerns from a Mexican perspective that the USA could pull (further) away from them.
One of the few Liga MX clubs that has a good track record of producing / developing / improving talented Mexican players in recent times, has been the recently crowned Apertura champions Pachuca (who my wife and her family support).
I think it's inevitable now that so many Yanks are playing their football in Europe. The Americas and Africa produce fantastic football player, but to get that last step of development/experience, you have to play in a top 10 league in Europe (and preferably one of the big 4).
The Mexican football authorities are just going to put all the blame on Martino. He's not blameless, but the truth of the matter is that the lack of focus on grassroots/youth development and the Liga MX model are much bigger issues. And much harder to fix.
I don't envy the job of the next Mexico manager. Huge expectations up the 26 WC and no up and coming player to base to fulfill them.
2026 might be too soon but the expectations will be huge for them as a hosting country.
Still, a big population doesn't always translate to success in popular sports. Nigeria has a population of 211M and is also football mad if I'm not mistaken. The Philippines (110M) are crazy about basketball yet aren't a threat on international level. Even China with their 1.4 billion population is basketball mad yet they always suck at the World Championship and the Olympics.
Agreed.
The USA failing to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, from a weak and forgiving CONCACAF qualifying set-up and despite only needing a draw against a crisis-ridden out of form, Trinidad & Tobago team, was one of the biggest epic fails by any international team that I can recall (far worse than Italy or the Netherlands failing to qualify for the same World Cup from the UEFA set-up). But they look to have recovered since then, and have a bright future, with players getting more experience in top 4 / top 5 European leagues.
I agree with you that Martino failed and did a poor job, but he also had the least talented group of Mexican players since the 70s (according to my wife's parents - definitely the least talented group that I've seen in my lifetime) at his disposal, and that there are fundamental, institutional issues with Mexican football as you said, the inefficient production pipeline, the Liga MX model, the obsession of making money over football development, the overly 'insular' outlook of Mexican football etc.
This. The Mexican football federation only cares about raking in the cash. It's guaranteed full house in friendlies in the USA, Mexicans travel big to international tournaments, and the likes of Adidas, Coca-Cola, Corona and big national companies keep up the big sponsorships.
Agreed. I'm sure Adidas confirmed that the Mexico NT shirt is one of their best selling ones. And while it is amazing that so many fans pack huge NFL stadiums in the US to watch Mexico continually play friendlies against the likes of Ecuador and Paraguay with from what I understand pretty expensive ticket prices (IIRC they once pulled in 90,000 or so for a friendly against New Zealand), that unfortunately convinces the FMF their approach is working and doesn't need to be changed.
It reminds me of Ed Woodward's very different performances on the commercial side vs. the footballing side at Utd.
The culture I think, but for their population they should be much better.
I don't think they really want to grow up and be footballers also grass roots football isn't great.
It's a massively corrupt country.
I don't think they really want to grow up and be footballers also grass roots football isn't great.
It's a massively corrupt country.
Mexican here, there are many factors, but the major ones I can think of are: our genetics, the sporting culture, being a developing country and having a relatively rich league.
The sporting culture in countries like Argentina and Uruguay is something not even the US has. The US produce athletes through schools (in most sports), in Argentina & Uruguay there is a big sports club culture, no wonder Argentina is generally good at team sports. Brazil is similar. Mexico doesn't have either the sports club culture, in fact, you can't really find any, and I mean, an actual sporting club, you can pay for some clubs but for preppy people who will not really become athletes at all. And the school system doesn't have the funding to produce athletes like the US, Canada or Japan.
Our genetics and being a developing country go hand in hand, you can see and in most sports, the developed countries tend to dominate. Brazil & Argentina are able to compete via their population, genetics & sporting culture. But we can't forget that Argentina used to be on pair with most European countries at the start of the XX century. Mexicans are naturally smaller, but also grow up with a poor diet (hence Mexican Americans are taller in average).
And well, you all have said it. We have a relatively rich league. It pays better than most small to medium size clubs in Europe so leaving the league is hard. But also, we don't have tons of clubs like actual footballing nations do, so if you're not in Liga MX or the second tier (the third tier and below are U-23 and below semi-pro leagues), there's nowhere else to play at a decent level at all. The top talent doesn't go because they have good wages and the clubs ask too much money, but they also get blocked by foreign talent. Even the J-league has smaller budgets so their players can leave more easily. The USAmericans also have the advantage of having owners from the US in many clubs through Europe.
So that would be my summary, but obviously it's more complex than that.
The sporting culture in countries like Argentina and Uruguay is something not even the US has. The US produce athletes through schools (in most sports), in Argentina & Uruguay there is a big sports club culture, no wonder Argentina is generally good at team sports. Brazil is similar. Mexico doesn't have either the sports club culture, in fact, you can't really find any, and I mean, an actual sporting club, you can pay for some clubs but for preppy people who will not really become athletes at all. And the school system doesn't have the funding to produce athletes like the US, Canada or Japan.
Our genetics and being a developing country go hand in hand, you can see and in most sports, the developed countries tend to dominate. Brazil & Argentina are able to compete via their population, genetics & sporting culture. But we can't forget that Argentina used to be on pair with most European countries at the start of the XX century. Mexicans are naturally smaller, but also grow up with a poor diet (hence Mexican Americans are taller in average).
And well, you all have said it. We have a relatively rich league. It pays better than most small to medium size clubs in Europe so leaving the league is hard. But also, we don't have tons of clubs like actual footballing nations do, so if you're not in Liga MX or the second tier (the third tier and below are U-23 and below semi-pro leagues), there's nowhere else to play at a decent level at all. The top talent doesn't go because they have good wages and the clubs ask too much money, but they also get blocked by foreign talent. Even the J-league has smaller budgets so their players can leave more easily. The USAmericans also have the advantage of having owners from the US in many clubs through Europe.
So that would be my summary, but obviously it's more complex than that.
Denmark has better players than Mexico and Japan (historically and currently), and they are a smaller country that doesn't surpass the 10 million population.
Mexico is a weird case, but i guess corruption plays a big part in this, plus Liga MX pays a lot, so the best mexican players don't leave Mexico easily.
It takes something special to produce 22 players to be on the same page. You need something culturally and a lot of luck. I'm also surprised how Mexico can't produce a solid team but they rarely produce amazing talent. Here and there 1 or 2 shows up like Hernandez, Giovany dos Santos, Chicharito etc.
Gangs in football don't help either. Many times good players are bullied out of even trying and terrible talent is propped by corruption. Not saying that is main Mexican issue, but it could be.
Gangs in football don't help either. Many times good players are bullied out of even trying and terrible talent is propped by corruption. Not saying that is main Mexican issue, but it could be.
I dunno, even if this one of the poorest Mexican squads I'd seen, I wouldn't be really that scared facing Denmark. At least not because of our quality, but more because of the trainer. Poland was a match that we should have taken, if it wasn't because Martino used tactics that don't bennefit our attackers at all (we lack a good striker right now, but there's enough quality to produce more than we did against Argentina & Poland).
Even our record against European teams at the World Cup from 1994 until now is not that bad:
1994
0 - 1 Norway
2 - 1 Ireland
1 - 1 Italy
1 - 1 Bulgaria (lost in PK)
1998
2 - 2 Belgium
2 - 2 Netherlands
1 - 2 Germany
2002
1 - 0 Croatia
1 - 1 Italy
2006
1 - 2 Portugal
2010
2 - 0 France
2014
3 - 1 Croatia
1 - 2 Netherlands
2018
1 - 0 Germany
0 - 3 Sweden
2022
0 - 0 Poland
5 W - 6 D - 5 L
Hardly a big gulf in quality. We are a good B- team, constantly around top 20 and it shows. We could be better, yes. There are resources for that, but we're lacking in many other factors...
I may be in the minority, but I love it when Mexico has a great team as it can only help the US by pushing us. My concern is the lack of youth in the current roster. Of the 11 players who started a must win game yesterday, only Montes, Sanchez, E. Alvarez and Vega will be under 30 for the next world cup and only K. Alvarez is under 24 on this roster.
As for the next generation of talent?
The US has won the last 3 CONCACAF U20 tournaments while Mexico dominated the previous iterations, winning 4 of 5.
- In the 2022 Mexico was knocked out in the qtr finals by Guatemala.
- In 2018 they were defeated by the US in the Final
- In 2017 they did not make the final
Something is going on with Mexico's player development and I hope they fix it.
As for the next generation of talent?
The US has won the last 3 CONCACAF U20 tournaments while Mexico dominated the previous iterations, winning 4 of 5.
- In the 2022 Mexico was knocked out in the qtr finals by Guatemala.
- In 2018 they were defeated by the US in the Final
- In 2017 they did not make the final
Something is going on with Mexico's player development and I hope they fix it.