Why do we struggle where other big prem clubs do fine

Mercenaries and fringe players being part of our regular XI.
 
Cloud7 said:
I feel like this right here is the biggest problem. We just seem to be so slow at identifying problems and trying to fix them.
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Agreed. Not only are we slow, we are too patient and charitable with underperforming players and managers. This has led to complacency and lack of motivation among the players.

The majority of the blame has to go to the incompetent Woodward. The sentimental fan base that accepts mediocrity in the name of stability, dna and home grown is also partly responsible.
 
Tap said:
Agreed. Not only are we slow, we are too patient and charitable with underperforming players and managers. This has led to complacency and lack of motivation among the players.

The majority of the blame has to go to the incompetent Woodward. The sentimental fan base that accepts mediocrity in the name of stability, dna and home grown is also partly responsible.
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We are not actually patient with players because the way we change our plans means that a large amount of our players are doomed very quickly. For all the criticism that I could aim at our players which group of player was given an actual chance as a group?

If we take a player like Bruno that is popular and shouldn't lead to too much negativity. He arrived at the club playing very well as an 8 for a few weeks, then the manager moved him at the 10, then he was pushed further as a second striker all of that in a counter attacking set up but out of nowhere the manager decides to go with a possession style and he does the opposite movement from second striker to 10 to 8. We then sack the manager and bring someone that preferes gegenpress and Bruno is moved in all sorts of roles once again. How can our players be consistent when the managers aren't? When the club is in fact neither patient nor consistent in its decisions?

Being patient with players mainly includes giving them a stable and coherent platform that allow them to find comfort and consistency.
 
That has always been like this at United at least in the Fergie days and since he left. Unlike Chelsea or Liverpool under Benitez we can’t just switch on for CL.

Under SAF:
- When we did well in the league we did well in the CL (we were in our flow).
- When we did alright / just enough to win the league, we mostly couldn’t beat the better sides in CL

Under LvG, Jose, Ole, Ralf:
- We were average or bad in the league, surprise surprise we were also bad in CL.
 
united_99 said:
That has always been like this at United at least in the Fergie days and since he left. Unlike Chelsea or Liverpool under Benitez we can’t just switch on for CL.

Under SAF:
- When we did well in the league we did well in the CL (we were in our flow).
- When we did alright / just enough to win the league, we mostly couldn’t beat the better sides in CL

Under LvG, Jose, Ole, Ralf:
- We were average or bad in the league, surprise surprise we were also bad in CL.
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And that's because the better sides are very good, it's silly to say but I noticed that some underestimate the level of other top teams. As a top team if you are not at your best, there is likely a handful of teams that will be favorites against you every year.
 
JPRouve said:
And that's because the better sides are very good, it's silly to say but I noticed that some underestimate the level of other top teams. As a top team if you are not at your best, there is likely a handful of teams that will be favorites against you every year.
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That’s true. But also can / could you see us doing a Chelsea, Liverpool, Milan or even RM in 2000s - finishing 3rd to 6th in the league but winning the CL? Although RM weren’t as bad in the league as Milan, Liverpool and Chelsea were.
We never finished lower than 3rd in the PL under Fergie, so for our standards back then when we came 3rd or not a good 2nd we really couldn’t do much in Europe either.
 
united_99 said:
That’s true. But also can / could you see us doing a Chelsea, Liverpool, Milan or even RM in 2000s - finishing 3rd to 6th in the league but winning the CL? Although RM weren’t as bad in the league as Milan, Liverpool and Chelsea were.
We never finished lower than 3rd in the PL under Fergie, so for our standards back then when we came 3rd or not a good 2nd we really couldn’t do much in Europe either.
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Milan and Liverpool were playing at their best in leagues that had extremely consistent opponents, so it's not really a case of them not performing at their best in the league and overperforming in the CL. While Chelsea were a bit fortunate. So yes I could see it if we were in similar circumstances.
 
Because we have a history of neglecting midfield and creating teams that can control from the engine.
 
Lee565 said:
But even further back than that Chelsea held their own against Barca in the 2008/09 season and were basically robbed massively (the infamous match where Drogba said it was a f'in disgrace) and then when we faced Barca in the final we couldn't touch them. Even going further back than that Chelsea kept drawing Barca in group stages when mourinho first took over and they went toe to toe with them.
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I think this is reinventing things to be honest. I remember watching those games as my dad is a Chelsea fan and they'd inevitably end up sitting back. I remember 18 year old Messi running rings around them on his own.

The semi final as well. They barely got a kick in the first leg and in the second were camped on the edge of their box against 10 men.

The year before that we knocked out Barcelona at the same stage and had a lot more of the game than Chelsea did (at least in the home leg).

Ferguson was very wary of getting caught on the counter in Europe as well. So we'd usually adopt a less cavalier style. When you look at city's failings you can argue it made sense
 
noodlehair said:
I think this is reinventing things to be honest. I remember watching those games as my dad is a Chelsea fan and they'd inevitably end up sitting back. I remember 18 year old Messi running rings around them on his own.

The semi final as well. They barely got a kick in the first leg and in the second were camped on the edge of their box against 10 men.

The year before that we knocked out Barcelona at the same stage and had a lot more of the game than Chelsea did (at least in the home leg).

Ferguson was very wary of getting caught on the counter in Europe as well. So we'd usually adopt a less cavalier style. When you look at city's failings you can argue it made sense
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I think we changed our approach the season after hammering Roma and losing to Kaka's Milan.
 
Leftback99 said:
We've haven't had a midfield for around 10 years.
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Still quite debatable really. Didn’t you re-sign Scholes from retirement to bolster your midfield at some point around then?

Your club should never have signed Schneidy or Fellaini, especially considering you were linked to Fabregas and Kroos. That was like window shopping in Harrods but actually shopping at Aldi.

You last best/major cm signing was Hargreaves?? Crazy.
 
Because we had Ed fecking Woodward in charge, who I think fancied himself to be Florentino Perez or Adriano Galliani where he can run this gigantic club all by himself, business side and football side… and he was not that.

He is gone now and according to paper talk, his successor Arnold is doing what Woodward should have done and delegated the football side to people who can actually run a football team.
 
Tap said:
That was Jose Mk 2. And even then, he was still the most successful (or least shitty) manager post Fergie.
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Yeah it kinda annoys me when some people act like Mourinho was a top manager. He wasn't by that point. He became a pale imitation of himself, incapable of anything except deflecting blame. We haven't had a manager among the top 5 in the world since SAF.
 
Chairman Steve said:
Because we had Ed fecking Woodward in charge, who I think fancied himself to be Florentino Perez or Adriano Galliani where he can run this gigantic club all by himself, business side and football side… and he was not that.

He is gone now and according to paper talk, his successor Arnold is doing what Woodward should have done and delegated the football side to people who can actually run a football team.
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Yeah it's my hope that with Woodward and OSG gone, Murtaugh and Rangnick can actually make some decent decisions.
 
Presently it's because we're not a very good side, quite simply. Not within the context of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc, who at various points throughout the last few decades have had extremely good sides. If we played Bayern Munich 100 times we'd probably lose 80 of them.

In the Ferguson era, I think the lack of European success relative to domestic success is well documented. There's probably something in the idea that those sides were closer to what football would become than we were. We played a style of football that was very suited to this league. Ferguson knew this and adapted, and I think Quieroz was primarily aimed at addressing this but we were always behind the eight ball so that probably affected our success.
 
It’s very simple, we’ve not got the mentality they have. When they get drawn to them there probably punching their fists in the air and shouting “LETS GO!” while if we get drawn to them our players are running to the toilet trying hard to avoid an accident….!
 
Look at Barcelona's transfer window: Alves, Torres, Traore, Aubameyang in. You get the experience and leadership from the two older players, one in his prime, and a 22-year old who is already good enough to make an immediate impact. All four were upgrades on their starting 11 and have been behind their resurgence. All very excited to play for Barca. Xavi obviously deserves his credit, but you can see how much better they look now with the new siginings.

Meanwhile, how did our board handle this vital winter transfer window that next year's CL spot depended on?

We are going nowhere with how our joke of a board runs the club. Woody may be "gone" but he made sure to leave us with his mates. Half of our board is a Glazer. Too bad our board can't be voted out.
 
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Lee565 said:
After seeing chelsea draw madrid and seeing the stats that Chelsea have really gotten the better of madrid over recent years, it is frustrating that teams like man City, Liverpool and Chelsea have always been able to hold their own against the the 3 biggest European sides in madrid, Barca and bayern in terms of results and going on the front foot tactically but we have tended to struggle or set up like and inferior side for years and years against these sides, even going back to fergie's years in the 2000's/2010's we still had a woeful record against these sides.

I can only think it is down to the heavy continental influence these sides have had over the past 3 decades compared to us.

What would you put it down to?
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We were poor against these Big 3 even during Fergi's era, so first of all don't blame Woodward. So yes, I also agree the main reason must be down to inferior skill of (too many) British players, and the teaching method at Academy, that we have been playing like Brentford for the past 100 years...

Fans are so used to it that when LVG tried to introduce passing game, they boo it as boring. When Moyes introduced Century cross into the box, nobody complain and hailed him as Genius.
 
I have been watching United for 25 years almost now and over the years I have noticed that United have always struggled with achieving balance in the side. We have relied heavily on individual brilliance over the years. We achieved balance in patches 98 to 01 and 07 to 09, not coincidentally those were our most successful periods.
 
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We need to just pay crazy amount for a manager who is currently successful and doing well in a top club rather than experimenting all the time. We are willing to pay for players so why not managers?
 
I think because our board don't have proper structure and don't know how to run football club, while our managers don't really have clear idea to play in this modern football because our board who interviewed them don't have any clue (All they know is we must play the United way by playing attacking football and promote youth), yet we still hired Mourinho. We changed our structure by giving big wages to our players, this is making us difficult to sell deadwoods for reasonable money and some players are stuck in here for too long. While the unclear idea is the reason why we hired the wrong managers and our managers tend to buy the wrong players because their football idea is unclear. Look at Klopp, he has clear idea how he wants to play and I don't remember he ever sign the wrong players so far at Liverpool.

Let's just hope now that Ed is gone means someone like Murtough, Rangnick and this new manager can start fix our problems. Hope so.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I think because our board don't have proper structure and don't know how to run football club, while our managers don't really have clear idea to play in this modern football because our board who interviewed them don't have any clue (All they know is we must play the United way by playing attacking football and promote youth), yet we still hired Mourinho. We changed our structure by giving big wages to our players, this is making us difficult to sell deadwoods for reasonable money and some players are stuck in here for too long. While the unclear idea is the reason why we hired the wrong managers and our managers tend to buy the wrong players because their football idea is unclear. Look at Klopp, he has clear idea how he wants to play and I don't remember he ever sign the wrong players so far at Liverpool.
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Yep.

I still cant believe that having a solid footballing structure at an elite club breeds success is a foreign concept to some on this forum.I really don't.

Bayern, Dortmund, Ajax and City are very good example of this.

But hey let's just hire a good manager and hope for the best. We don't need sporting directors and the like. Just another investment banker to run the show.
 
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